More talk on cuttlefish/octopus food.....

Discussion in 'Sources for Cephalopods and Food' started by Paradox, Sep 15, 2005.

  1. Paradox

    Paradox Haliphron Atlanticus Supporter

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    I know this topic has been brought up before, but I still do not feel like there is a good clear answer.

    Has anyone had clear evidence or reason in which feeding freshwater ghost shrimp can lead to negative effects on a cuttle/octo? Upon appearance, themarine shrimp look exactly like ghost shrimp.

    I understand that Freshwater animals are considered osmoregulators (osmotic difference between thier body fliuds and environment) and marine vertibrates are somoregulators (no osmotic difference between thier body fluids and thier environment). Does this difference between the freshwater and marine shrimp have a significant difference in the types and amount of nutrients found in them to be bad?

    Has anyone had any long term experience with feeding ghost shrimps in comparison to marine based food?

    If the difference between fresh and marine physiology is enough to be considered "bad", this makes me question if using salt water acclimated guppies or mollies as food being a good idea? Does this acclimation process to salt change their physiology to be more adequiet in terms of a proper cephalopod diet?

    Any comments or information would be very welcomed..And yes, these questions are motivated by my reluctance to keep spending 70 bucks overnighting marine shrimps to my house when I can buy ghost shrimp at the store down the road... :lol:
     
  2. DHyslop

    DHyslop Architeuthis Supporter

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    When I have another octo I'm going to try the Aquaculture Store. You can get 50 one-inch sw shrimp for $22, shipping included. If you want, you can get a lot of 200 for $60. Even if half of those died in two more days of shipping, I would guess the unit cost is still below overnighting.

    Dan
     
  3. Paradox

    Paradox Haliphron Atlanticus Supporter

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    There is a place slightly cheaper for bulk amount..

    http://www.livebrineshrimp.com/

    I will be having many mouths to feed soon, which is why im trying to find the most inexpensive route.

    I also feed shore crabs, but I worry about them being toxic in some way, plus this is more maintenance for I have to remove all the crab shells afterwards..=)
     
  4. DHyslop

    DHyslop Architeuthis Supporter

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    That is a good price. If you're worried about pollution, however, the aquaculture store is--by name, at least--implying their shrimp are aquacultured. Judging from the seahorses and other things on live brine shrimp's site, I suspect theirs are all wild-caught.

    Dan
     
  5. Jean

    Jean Colossal Squid Supporter

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    OK Paradox,

    Did some checking! It appears that fw fish are bad,bad,bad :grin: BUT FW shrimps etc may be OK if they get enriched to make up for some nutritional deficiencies!

    FW shrimp are lower in energy (KJ), protein, lipids, Vit B complex, Vit C, saturated fats, LA (Omega-6, linoleic acid - 18:2), ALA (Omega-3, alpha-linolenic acid - 18:3), EPA (Omega-3, eicosapentaenoic acid - 20:5), and DHA (Omega-3, docosahexaenoic acid - 22:6) :shock: than their marine counterparts.

    Check out

    http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/jan2004/invert.htm

    for the actual numbers!

    Personally I wouldn't want to take the risk of feeding such food to our cephs.......but having said that I have an easy source of marine crusts on my doorstep! As an emergency food OK once they had been enriched.

    This article is mainly about feeding marine fish and I'd be a little wary translating across to cephs as their energy requirements can be much higher than many fish (some cephs I believe have an 80% food to growth ratio..............that's HUGE!!!)

    Cheers

    J
     
  6. Nancy

    Nancy Titanites Staff Member Moderator

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    I've ordered those shrimp from the Aquaculture Store before. At that time they were wild caught, but the owners were getting more into breeding all sorts of small creatures. I'm sure they'd be glad to tell you the source. They were salt water, not fresh water.

    I live in a major city (Dallas) and had so difficulty with the shrimp and the fiddler crabs (although I avoided ordering during temperature extremes). I also made sure I was home to receive the shipment and put them into clean water right away and fed them. Very few arrived dead, even by priority mail. Some were smaller than promised, some were larger. I always felt I got a good deal. By the way, my bimac loved them!!

    Jean, could you also research krill, please. I know a few people have used them as octo food. Are they OK for octos and cuttlefish?

    Thanks,
    Nancy

    Nancy
     
  7. Jean

    Jean Colossal Squid Supporter

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    Hi Nancy,

    If we're talking about Euphausid Krill (eg Euphausia suberba or Nyctiphanes austalis ) then I don't need to research it! From stomach contents analysis I know that Nototodarus sloanii eat 1000's of the things (I had to count the eye's............they seemed to be resistant to digestion!!!!)

    I'll see what I can find out about the proximate analysis of the krill tho'... I have a paper somewhere in the heaps of stuff on my desk!!! We feed N. australis to the aquarium critters including the midget octis (Hannibal is too big for these guys!)

    Cheers

    J
     
  8. Paradox

    Paradox Haliphron Atlanticus Supporter

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    Wow!! Thats the exact information ive been looking for...SO I guess there really is a significant difference between using ghost shrimps vs marine shrimps...

    Thanks...now to get a cup of coffee to read that long article!
     
  9. Nancy

    Nancy Titanites Staff Member Moderator

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    I looked at the package of krill in my freezer It's called Krill Aqua Yums and yes, it's Euphausia suberba enriched with lots of vitamins. So I guess I can add that to the food list. Only thing is, that 4 oz package isn't going to last long with an octo!

    Nancy
     
  10. Jean

    Jean Colossal Squid Supporter

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    :lol: No it's not ! One of the small squid in my samples (about 180mm DML if I remember correctly) had eaten 1600 krill (Nyctiphanes australis) , 20 Lanternfish (Lampanyctodes hectoris ) and a juvenile red cod (Psuedophycis bachus ) :shock:

    J
     
  11. Nancy

    Nancy Titanites Staff Member Moderator

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    Jean, do you think it is harmful to once in a while offer a 2 inch crawfish? I ask this because they a good prey for octos to chase and catch and the octos seem to find them delicious. Crawfish are, I've been told, a type of freshwater lobster.

    Nancy
     
  12. Jean

    Jean Colossal Squid Supporter

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    I guess once in a while they'd be OK. Kinda like Octopus candy! A little is OK alot is bad........sigh!

    J
     
  13. corw314

    corw314 Colossal Squid Staff Member Moderator

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    Here's a thought. I have fed all my octos exclusively on local caught food except in the winter where I have had to supplement with baitshops and have ordered fiddlers for aquaculture. The areas where I collect always have disgusting looking stuff not only in the water but on the surface as I go at low tide and everything seems to be exposed. I am now wondering if there is any affect from contaminents. All my octos have lived pretty full lives, but that really does raise the question on if they are affected by this.

    Carol
     
  14. Nancy

    Nancy Titanites Staff Member Moderator

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    From the tracking I've done over the last few years, I can tell you that octos fed with generous amounts of live food seem to live longer than the others. Yours are among the longest lived of the Tonmo octos.

    Maybe there is some contamination but perhaps this is offset by the good nutritional qualities of the live food.

    It's certainly something to think about and monitor, though.

    Nancy
     
  15. Paradox

    Paradox Haliphron Atlanticus Supporter

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    Thats all great information. Alth the artical Jean shared earlier shows that freshwater shrimps/crustaceans arent a bad substitute, but are still not nearly as good, Ive decided to take the route of purchasing live marine shrimp and using shore caught crabs..

    Id love to see a study showing long term affects on locally caught animals vs freshwater animals vs frozen vs marine food sources, but Im sure others feel as I do in which I do not want to expose any of my cuttles to anything but the best...

    Thanks again for the great feedback....
     

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