• TONMOCON VII Announced | MBL at Woods Hole | Apr 6-8, 2018
  • Thanks for visiting! TONMO is the world's greatest online cephalopod enthusiast community, with interactive content going back to May of 2000, and a biennial conference. If you'd like to join in on the fun, become a TONMO member -- it's easy and free. You can follow us on Facebook and Twitter for more cephy goodness.


Ceph venom

bigGdelta

Vampyroteuthis
Supporter
Joined
Sep 29, 2005
Messages
403
#1
I know the blue ring, like the puffer fish, gets its tetrodotoxin from colonies of symbiotic bacteria. Is this the case with other cephs and do they all use tetrodotoxin or do some manufacture their own venom? and how does the toxicity of the bacteria stand up to the varieties that live in puffers and salmanders? what keeps other bacteria from colonizing the glands?
 

monty

Colossal Squid
Staff member
Supporter
Joined
Mar 8, 2004
Messages
4,887
#2
bigGdelta said:
I know the blue ring, like the puffer fish, gets its tetrodotoxin from colonies of symbiotic bacteria. Is this the case with other cephs and do they all use tetrodotoxin or do some manufacture their own venom? and how does the toxicity of the bacteria stand up to the varieties that live in puffers and salmanders? what keeps other bacteria from colonizing the glands?
I believe that the TTX (tetrodotoxin) in bluerings is identical to that in the puffers and salamaders, and comes from the same bacteria. (This is from memory from a wilderness emergency medical reference). I'm pretty sure that the blue ring is the only ceph known to use TTX, and most cephs make another venom (cephalotoxin or something like that) that's very effective on crustaceans but not so much on vertebrates. I'm sure some of the experts around will provide a lot more info, though.... googling for cephalotoxin provides a lot of information if you want to wade through that.

Another question I have is how common the ttx-making bacteria are, and if, for example, you had a tank-raised blue ring, if you could keep it from getting exposed to the bacteria, so its glands would never get the bacteria colonies that make the ttx. Of course, I wouldn't want to be the guy that checks to see if it's lethal or not...
 

bigGdelta

Vampyroteuthis
Supporter
Joined
Sep 29, 2005
Messages
403
#3
monty said:
I

Another question I have is how common the ttx-making bacteria are, and if, for example, you had a tank-raised blue ring, if you could keep it from getting exposed to the bacteria, so its glands would never get the bacteria colonies that make the ttx. Of course, I wouldn't want to be the guy that checks to see if it's lethal or not...
the papers seem spotty as to origins of venom.
sounds like a research project to me. the ttx bacteria can't be that common or else there would be an immune response to them.
 

mucktopus

Haliphron Atlanticus
Staff member
Moderator
Joined
Dec 31, 2003
Messages
523
#4
monty said:
how common the ttx-making bacteria are, and if, for example, you had a tank-raised blue ring, if you could keep it from getting exposed to the bacteria, so its glands would never get the bacteria colonies that make the ttx. Of course, I wouldn't want to be the guy that checks to see if it's lethal or not...
One of my labmates is studying something similar to this now. She's been working on it for a while and her results are coming in bit by bit. I'll let you know when the papers are out.
 

bigGdelta

Vampyroteuthis
Supporter
Joined
Sep 29, 2005
Messages
403
#5
come on hook us up we won't tell :wink: dammed science guys .
 

cthulhu77

Titanites
Supporter
Joined
Mar 15, 2003
Messages
6,642
#6
The venom is produced by glands, unlike the assimilation that takes place in the pufferfish (stored by filtration in the liver and kidneys, same as the mercury in predatory fish , resulting in effects like ciguatera poisoning), and has an effect similar to ttx.
Hence, blue ring venom, and pufferfish poison.

http://helium.vancouver.wsu.edu/~lindblad/blueringedoctopus.html

A couple of labs are looking into blue ring venom quite a lot right now...should be a ton of interesting information coming out soon.

greg
 

bigGdelta

Vampyroteuthis
Supporter
Joined
Sep 29, 2005
Messages
403
#7
ceph venom

From what i understand from Dr Bryan Fry ( check out his site http://venomdoc.com/ )the only difference between the tetrodotoxin of the blue ring and a puffer (or a salamander) is the fact that a blue ring can inject the toxin (it has to be injected to be venom). So the octo had a salivary gland that is a perfect enviroment for the tetrodetoxin producing bacteria, but how does it keep other bacteria from colonizing the glands? an antibiotic that kills all bacteria except the tetro-producing ones? Do some blue rings die from pathogens colonizing the glands? a case of octo mumps?
 

Members online

No members online now.