Wunderpuss (possible Mimic)

[Grey]

I just found that site btw, which also supports my theory about the way they are collected.

 

[neurobadger]

Divers take nice photos and share but leave the thing behind to live a survival of the fittest life. Researcher on the other hand will catch and kill things to document that they are rare or exist. Funny how that works isn't it.

Are you kidding? Are you aware of what actually goes on regarding research in this area and what benefits come from it, anyway?

I seem to remember you made similar snipes a while back at those of us in the scientific community regarding nautilus-keeping, to the tune of 'Why do researchers get to keep them but I don't?'

The answer gjbarord gave you about what is studied and what good comes from it is just as relevant here, with a note that we try really hard not to have to kill ANYTHING. We are not monsters.

 

[CaptFish]

Maybe so. But as the old saying goes "dead or alive your coming with me" I have a new home for you.

yeah and we all know what happens when you take things home...

 

[Mike Bauer]

Are you kidding? Are you aware of what actually goes on regarding research in this area and what benefits come from it, anyway?

I seem to remember you made similar snipes a while back at those of us in the scientific community regarding nautilus-keeping, to the tune of 'Why do researchers get to keep them but I don't?'

The answer gjbarord gave you about what is studied and what good comes from it is just as relevant here, with a note that we try really hard not to have to kill ANYTHING. We are not monsters.

We are not monsters.[/QUOTE] True! not all but most would kill to be published and that bothers me.

Are you aware of what actually goes on regarding research in this area and what benefits come from it, anyway? yes I am but you still preach do as I say and not as I do. Which comes first the safety of the critter or the needs of the researchers, Study them in the ocean it they are that endangered don't keep one to write about it. What is it that you need to know so badly that is worth kill one to find out?

 

[Mike Bauer]

yeah and we all know what happens when you take things home...

It could live a long happy life in the correct hands or die a horrid death in the wrong hands. Life suck but better to live a happy life if you can. Hopefully God will lend a hand on how things work out.

 

[Mike Bauer]

I just found that site btw, which also supports my theory about the way they are collected.

Please let me know were this is. I would like to follow your progress if you don't post it here.

 

[Mike Bauer]

Mike, I truly and honestly appreciate your enthusiasm, yet: Small egg species can be done to some extent if there is a vast amount of space and a vast amount of crab zoeae from their local environment in place, plus most likely a host of planktonic prey items yet unbeknownst to us, each idealy suited for maybe even a single day in the developmental stages the larval octopus goes through.

Experiments with Octopus vulgaris are ongoing, for reasons of commercial aquaculture, and they are hardly successful... Do not hold your breath for anything at an aquarist scale within the forseeable future, I am close to locking this thread as the discussion would drag on and on and not lead to anything else than the horses flogged fiercely and with a passion elsewhere in this forum, regardless of their inanimity.

PS: Mike, if you think locking is a harsh overreaction, induced by a week of hard work and stress, you are likely right

PPS: So I won't, but let's return to the topic, shall we? Ethics and exotics is a BIG one, reason the more we should have a forum discussion, come TONMOCON IV, Greg Oh Greg, where art thou?

I think this dead horse can't be beat anymore. I would close this post! You were correct to do so in the first place.

 

[OB]

First, I have absolutely NO intentions on breeding this animal. As far as my purported set-up not being appropriate, I think you should check the known facts about these animals again. They have been found most in muddy estuaries in the Indo-Pacific. Ok unless they are brackish then my 8'x24"x16" frag tank should be a very suitable home for this animal. The nano reef he is going into is not permanent, its just better than a 3 gallon eclipse that it is being sold in as an "octopus set-up". These animals basically eat anything they can find from what I've read. They dig and sweep in the sediment for small fish and crustaceans, that would be very easy to provide.
Ok I really enjoy reading the feedback, but I wasn't expecting to be half way talked down too. .

Please, allow me to elucidate. First and foremost I have no doubt in my mind towards your prowess at keeping animals (happily) in an environment that suits their requirements. Talking down was therefore never my intent, and if perceived as such I would gladly offer my apologies. My references towards your setup and food supply, come from the fact that you suggested husbandry in your post. Included was the word "maybe", that should indeed not be overlooked. I think I suffer a bit from the "God, not again" Staffer's disease, where I tend to forget that not every poster can be asked to search the forum for similar prior discussions, such as I and the others previously partook in, my goat being "got" a little too often. I therefore may fill in the wrong details, based on prior experience, not on the actual content of the post. This is also the reason why I have to keep myself from writing up why Thales' experiment should not be taken out of context and used in a pot and kettle type of exchange. Because of the above mentioned, my wording might have appeared more agitated to you than intended.

In all, it's anyone's choice to make what animal to keep, how and why, with perceived (agreed upon?) lower thresholds for protecting living organisms against cruelty or harm as an ethical framework. Rarity does have a role to play here.

I will suggest, however, to leave the ethics issue to a proper exchange at the Con, so verbal and non-verbal can both play their part in the discussions. I don't like some of the semantics that are going on in this thread and almost feel obliged to quote Jack Nicholson's US president's final words in "Mars Attacks!". Does this mean the thread is closed? Not per se, but I would urge those interested not to get ourselves locked deeper into a "No way!" "Way!" type of exchange. In which case the thread would no longer serve a purpose and be locked, anyway.

And in general, guys, go easy on the scientists, it's a rough enough fundless world, as it is, and implying Victorian methodologies as still being de rigeur doesn't make it any more pleasant

 

[Grey]

OB, I may have taken your wording the wrong way as well. I didn't mention that I changed what I planned to do. See the nano reef is an open top but I can still put the lid back on which is very escape proof. I also stated something about a 55 gallon and the if you read on I only make a small mention to the frag tank. Which I still don't mention putting the octopus in there. I do appreciate the feedback and from now on when I change my mind I will post it not expect you guys to just know it lol

 

[neurobadger]

I will suggest, however, to leave the ethics issue to a proper exchange at the Con, so verbal and non-verbal can both play their part in the discussions.

I'm trying to coordinate something with respect to this in light of Euroceph 2011; it would be really nice if we could set up a discussion thread on this for all those who are interested in presenting something short.

 

[neurobadger]

True! not all but most would kill to be published and that bothers me.

Are you aware of what actually goes on regarding research in this area and what benefits come from it, anyway? yes I am but you still preach do as I say and not as I do. Which comes first the safety of the critter or the needs of the researchers, Study them in the ocean it they are that endangered don't keep one to write about it. What is it that you need to know so badly that is worth kill one to find out?

They're rather useful model organisms for a number of disciplines, for one.

Perhaps you would find more sympathetic ears at PeTA.

 

[gjbarord]

No one on here should be personally attacking anyone for their opinions and I don't believe that is happening here. I think there is a lot of passion on both sides of the issue and discussion is always good. Here is a similar analogy from personal experience working in the Bering Sea fishery.

There are a number of prohibited species in Alaska that commercial fisherman are not allowed to catch, either because there are separate fisheries specifically for the species or because the population numbers are very low (or rare). However, no matter how much fishermen try to target areas without these prohibited species, they will always catch a few of them. Now, I have been asked by many fisherman if they can just keep the prohibited species because they are already dead and they don't want to see the fish go to waste by just tossing it over. While their intentions appear to be true, there would not be prohibited species in the first place if not for certain fishing practices of the past. So, no matter how often I am asked that question, the answer is always NO. There are some programs that the larger ships take part in that saves the salmon collected for the local food banks rather than tossing them back over though at least when they are tossed back over they remain in the food chain... However most boats do not do this practice because there is always a chance of someone on the boat taking advantage of this and trying to keep one for themselves. So, most boats discard all prohibited species because the prosecution that follows can lead to huge fines (hundreds of thousands of dollars in one case) and jail time (several years in the same case). Now, on some boats we (the fishery biologists) would save the prohibited species to collect important data vital to the fisheries. And I will always here the fisherman call us hypocritical and ask why they cannot keep the fish for themselves.

Just some insight from a different perspective...

Greg

 

[Mike Bauer]

Here is some more info if anyone is interested

Aquarium Fish: Captive Observations of the Mimic Octopus, Thaumoctopus mimicus

I do see both sides of the issue and no research isn't bad if done for the right reasons. This article is a good example of what I would call a good study. It is loaded with information and facts about the octopus. It does the right thing to point out the hazards of keeping one and properly points out "do you really have $300.00 to keep this thing of a day or 2" causing normal people to run away and never look back. If you still get the mimic you should add you information to the data in the link you provided and let the researcher know how thing go.
Again Good Luck and I hope it live a long life for you.
Mike

 

[Mike Bauer]

All, also note Thales is a good person who has done lots of great work. He deserves a great deal of respect for all he has done to help out the researchers and pet owners as well. So don't get me wrong. He is doing great thing to help everyone out he just need to work on being nicer to his public and maybe remember he started out just like the rest of us. Hell it is hard enough as it is to get anything these days like cuttlefish so sharing your information and helping the public aquarium deserves much thanks. Good luck with your newest project .

 

[Mike Bauer]

Grey, if you do post your result here please start a new post with your progress. Get a webcam or post lots of videos.