Wunderpus 3 journal

[Thales]

Video:

Wonderpus

 

[DWhatley]

Video:

Wonderpus

Did you pull the videos?

 

[Thales]

D, its there for me. Do you have quicktime installed? Can you see the other videos on my site?

I am uploading it to TONMO as well, but its taking a long time so I am not sure if it is going to stick.

 

[bluespotocto]

hey is would still like to know how big these guys get because i would like to know if one could fit in my tank.

 

[Thales]

hey is would still like to know how big these guys get because i would like to know if one could fit in my tank.

I don't think you are going to get much support on that front from TONMOers. Generally, most feel that these octos shouldn't really be collected for the trade at this time for a number of reasons.

I also believe that this community is in agreement that even experienced ceph keepers with mature tanks set up specifically for these kinds of cephs should think long and hard before thinking about obtaining this species; their needs are not well understood, but more importantly, the size and health of their wild populations is unknown. There has been, and continues to be, discussion and consideration regarding even posting about these animals at all because it can encourage people to obtain them and when there is a spike in people trying to obtain them it seems clear that populations suffer. I believe that knowledge should not be hidden, but I hope that people enjoy the information but quell the desire to obtain these animals.

I have never actually gone looking to keep a wunderpus, and never would (unless I was embarking on a program of scientific study/display of them at my job at the California Academy of Sciences). They are not captive breedable and so far, they very quickly become very boring animals to keep. They do not exhibit the captivating 'intelligence' that is often associated with octos, they are not at all interactive, and being crepuscular they hide most of the time. Most of them come in as adults and compromised by their trip through the chain of custody so they don't tend to live very long.

You seem to be a new ceph keeper and I urge you to stay away from this species. I hope you take no offense from my urging, as none is meant. We have sadly seen too many of these animals suffers by well meaning aquarists.

For more information check out www.wunderpus.org and look at the links to previous discussions on TONMO about these amazing animals.

 

[Neogonodactylus]

The pictures and videos are stunning - which still causes me concern about their generating an even greater market for these animals. If you can "rescure" and maintain them, the message is that other aquarists can keep them as well and if there is the perception that this is possible, we all know that the pipeline will open up all the way back to the collectors. If there was the possibility of culturing them like there appears to be with O. chierchiae, I would probably feel differently. However, as we have found out, culturing even small, large-egged species is demanding and extremely difficult. It isn't going to happen with the mimic.

Roy

 

[gholland]

Given the uncertainty about wild populations and the fact that a captive breeding program isn't very feasible for wunderpus, has there been any consideration of a rescue and release program?

 

[Thales]

The pictures and videos are stunning - which still causes me concern about their generating an even greater market for these animals. If you can "rescure" and maintain them, the message is that other aquarists can keep them as well and if there is the perception that this is possible, we all know that the pipeline will open up all the way back to the collectors. If there was the possibility of culturing them like there appears to be with O. chierchiae, I would probably feel differently. However, as we have found out, culturing even small, large-egged species is demanding and extremely difficult. It isn't going to happen with the mimic.

Roy

Did I type 'rescure' somewhere? How embarrassing if I did!

I know what you mean Roy. I wrestle with it every time one of these has come my way, and still come back to the idea that information is better than no information. In the hobby there has been a marked drop in expensive exotic cephs in the last 1.5 years which I attribute not just to the economy but to LFS understanding that they just don't make much economic sense even in good times.

What are your views about these animals being on display at public aquariums?

 

[Thales]

Given the uncertainty about wild populations and the fact that a captive breeding program isn't very feasible for wunderpus, has there been any consideration of a rescue and release program?

I think that would take a whole bunch of funding and time and infrastructure as well as bureaucratic hoop jumping and justification regarding the rerelease. I would also fear that it would create a closed loop for collection and that it could actually end up making more of these animals get collected. However, I would fully support someone with the time an energy to try to make it happen.

 

[gholland]

I think that would take a whole bunch of funding and time and infrastructure as well as bureaucratic hoop jumping and justification regarding the rerelease. I would also fear that it would create a closed loop for collection and that it could actually end up making more of these animals get collected. However, I would fully support someone with the time an energy to try to make it happen.

The closed loop for collectors is a valid concern, but I wasn't thinking about a concerted effort to track down and purchase every captured wunderpus from wholesale or retail outfits... I was thinking more along the lines of people who "end up with one unintentionally" and relying on their sense of responsibility to "donate" it for release. Those people wouldn't be re-purchasing the animals. Probably wouldn't be a large number of animals... How much more funding, time, and infrastructure would be required to send one home compared to getting it in the hands of a hobbyist in the first place? I know there are people here with contacts in the proper areas.

Wow... I'm starting to sound like the other Greg. Maybe he could donate paintings to pay the shipping!

 

[bluespotocto]

Were do these guys live in the world?

 

[Thales]

The closed loop for collectors is a valid concern, but I wasn't thinking about a concerted effort to track down and purchase every captured wunderpus from wholesale or retail outfits... I was thinking more along the lines of people who "end up with one unintentionally" and relying on their sense of responsibility to "donate" it for release. Those people wouldn't be re-purchasing the animals. Probably wouldn't be a large number of animals.

It still gets paid for somewhere along the line which I think would help with the closed loop. I think it would be great if the wholesalers who are sent one as fill refused to pay for it, but there are only a few who have enough juice (they make big orders often) to get away with that. If they refuse to pay the exporter, the exporter will stop shipping to them and they don't want to lose the resource.
The store that gave me Medusa still paid for the animal, but they did have enough juice to lay down the law about never being shipped one again.

.. How much more funding, time, and infrastructure would be required to send one home compared to getting it in the hands of a hobbyist in the first place? I know there are people here with contacts in the proper areas.

100% or more.
The infrastructure to get them into the hands of hobbyists already exists, but there is nothing to send the animals the other direction. Its a one direction pipeline. Currently, nothing is ever returned to the exporters. Even animals that F&W confiscate don't go back.
I think to make it work, at least initially, someone, after clearing and arranging all the paperwork (a herculean task if possible at all), would actually have to fly the animal back in person - if it were returned to the middle men I would say that, sadly, they would re-bag it and ship it right back again rather than letting it go.

Wow... I'm starting to sound like the other Greg. Maybe he could donate paintings to pay the shipping!

I think it would be great to do, just difficult, but I do volunteer to be sent to Indo to document and release a wunderpus after its all arranged

 

[gholland]

The "personal escort" model sounds good, but probably slightly more expensive in the long run. Greg is going to have to do a lot of painting! Glad to see you're willing to step up and take one for the team... such sacrifice!

I know nothing about the paperwork, but I can imagine. Too bad it's often so hard to do a good deed!

Thanks for letting me bounce my ideas off ya Rich. Guess we're just going to have to figure out a good way to raise small-egg hatchlings, eh?

 

[gholland]

The "personal escort" model sounds good, but probably slightly more expensive in the long run. Greg is going to have to do a lot of painting! Glad to see you're willing to step up and take one for the team... such sacrifice!

I know nothing about the paperwork, but I can imagine. Too bad it's often so hard to do a good deed!

Thanks for letting me bounce my ideas off ya Rich.

 

[DWhatley]

There is another problem with a return to origination that is possibly more defeating than the costs. In FL, animals that are conficated are not returned to the wild for fear of introducing foreign parasites, bacteria, etc. coming from the aquarium. There have been at least two plagues in the Keys in the last 20 years, one killing off the long spined sea urchin and another the queen conch (several times sponges have been eradicated as well).