Need some questions answered about my O. chierchiae (originally mercatoris)

[Neogonodactylus]

Initially, an unfertilized egg would give mitochondrial DNA as well as nuclear, but I'm not sure how rapidly it would degrade. I'll ask some of my colleagues if they have any experience trying to get DNA from unfertilized eggs.

Roy

Roy

 

[Jon Crossan]

Well now I'm really hoping that charley is a girl, that whole process sounds rather gruesome and I'd much rather just send an egg in than have to work with a dying charley. I mean would putting him in the alcohol at least put him out of his misery? I'm not sure I'd be able to do it to the poor little guy if it was painful

I'll try my best to do what I can but I'm crossing my fingers that charley may be a Charlotte or Charlene in case we can avoid the other process.

 

[Neogonodactylus]

Pain is another kettle of ceph. Alcohol is probably a quick death, but not painless. I usually put the animal in a little water and pop it into the freezer. This seems to cause less obvious distress and is over fairly quickly.

Roy

 

[Jon Crossan]

Would putting it in the freezer affect the status of the tissue though?

Here are some new pics I just took today everybody enjoy! I'll keep taking more when I can

here he is reaching for a hermit crab.

Here he is trying to eat a hermit crab (I had no idea what he was doing when I took this picture haha)

Hes still working on it as I'm typing this, I think hes having a little bit of trouble getting it out. He had one that he was working on earlier but I think he got frustrated and spit it out because when he did the crab was still alive and well and scurried off.

 

[mucktopus]

Well now I'm really hoping that charley is a girl, that whole process sounds rather gruesome and I'd much rather just send an egg in than have to work with a dying charley. I mean would putting him in the alcohol at least put him out of his misery? I'm not sure I'd be able to do it to the poor little guy if it was painful

I'll try my best to do what I can but I'm crossing my fingers that charley may be a Charlotte or Charlene in case we can avoid the other process.

Another option is to anesthetize Charlie first, if s/he is nearing the end and time for preservation (about 5% ethanol to 95% seawater by volume- until breathing and reaction slows). Many of us do this to "drunken" the animal and minimize pain. After all the years of preparing specimens, I am still not used to ending an octopus's life, but find this appears to work as well as anything.

We all have our fingers crossed that she is in fact a she and lays fertile eggs. But in terms of information, a common problem in science is to have a DNA sequence but no voucher for it. For this reason, although it is a very difficult process that many of us understand going through, it is very important to have the adult preserved and deposited into a museum. First, we will need to compare measurements of Charlie to preserved specimens/descriptions of O. ch. If they match up then we will be able to say that the DNA is from O. ch. If not, then there will be evidence for a new species in that genus with DNA to match. If that is the case then very likely Charlie might be a type specimen of that species if preserved in good shape. We'll need to know- if another one comes along ten years from now- whether we're comparing apples to apples or apples to oranges.

Ok- have to run- I'll check in later.

 

[Neogonodactylus]

Mucktopus's drunken stooper is will certainly work. Cold works as long as you take the animal out before ice crystals form.

Roy

 

[tonmo]

I'm late catching up here but certain members of Staff have kept the rest of us in the loop.

I'd just like to say that I'm really proud of the community and the effort here. This is very hard, yet has great significance, with all the right intentions. Thanks Jon, and to everyone here lending guidance and support. This is good stuff.

 

[Jon Crossan]

Well guys I think charley finally finished that little hermit crab off. While he was eating he was looking rather pale though. I ran down to the fish store before it closed and got my water checked out. Everything was good accept the Nitrate was a little iffy so I just decided out of paranoia to do a water change and I got some great pictures out of it. I was expecting him to hide the whole time but to my surprise it was the most active I've ever seen him out in the light! He was scooting all over the place and checking everything out. I think he's warming up to me

Also thanks a lot for the comment tonmo! I couldn't agree more, also thanks everybody for all your help so far I hope this thread continues the way it has been. I'll keep you all updated as much as I can.

here are those pictures

 

[Thales]

Super sweet.

 

[DWhatley]

Jon,
Since Charlie is becoming more active, you can watch for an arm (usually 3rd right) that stays curled up and is not often extended or used. If he is a sexually mature and male, this seems to be the case for all aquarium sized species. Another telling physical characteristic that is not as reliable (true on my Mercs but not true on my Hummelincki) is to look for enlarged suckers on the first three or four arms. My two male Mercs show these (Sisty has double enlarged suckers on most arms) on all arms but Mucktopus mentioned that it is more common to be only on 3 or 4 IF the species has this distinction at all (I seem to remember - Crissy help - that this is more common on the dwarf species than on the larger ones).

If neither of these features show up over the next month, we are all in for a fun ride!

Oh, and don't be afraid to take water to sample, change out some the water and then take it in. If you show high nitrate, any nitrite or ammonia, this will allow the water to mix a little before you do a second water change. I have not had any harm come from changing water mid-week just because my octos were acting a little strangely (this is now my strict policy - water change first, questions later). Keeping 5 gallons (minimum) on hand and at room temperature (you can get inexpensive potable water carriers - green - at Walmart or even the grocery) at all times is a good idea. I keep two of these in the house and another 30+ gallons in the garage on a regular basis but I have multiple tanks and now multiple octo tanks to maintain so I refresh all of it in a weeks time. The other thing I will suggest that you keep on hand are the multi-test strips (others insist on reagent tests but my personal dual testing showed equal results and I use and replace the strips a lot more than I take time to mix powders). If anything, the strips show higher than the chemical tests and will give you some piece of mind before you get to your fish store for further testing. One additional thing you might want to add is the Seachem ammonia checker. It stays in the tank 24/7 and turns color if it detects ammonia. I keep them in all my tanks and especially find them useful in a QT/hospital tank where their is no biological filtration to speak of. If you ever wonder about the effectiveness of live rock, try putting LR in a small tank and nothing but a filter in another, add a small bioload to each and watch the ammonia checker. The test will sell you on both LR and keeping the inexpensive piece of plastic visible at all times. Lastly, I have noticed that the Mercs will hug the surface if I let my salinity drop below 25. My larger tank does not suffer from salt loss but the 15 gallon needs regular checking.

Can you tell we are all very excited about Charlie?

 

[Jon Crossan]

Guys just a little while ago as I was walking into my room (it was dark and I had the red light on) I didn't turn on any lights or anything I just walked in and I noticed somthing wierd floating in the water next to charley (he was on the glass). It was ink, after I looked closer charley jetted away and ejected more ink. He is about a 3 inch long octopus in a 55 gallon tank and I just used all my water about 2 hours ago doing a water change. If anybody sees this please help I'm worried the ink will hurt him, I broke it up and got as much as I could out with a net but I'm still worried. Is not being able to change the water going to hurt him since the tank is so large compared to him? He didn't ink too much it seemed like it was only little spurts here and there. I don't know if he did it before I walked in the room or not because they were in areas of the tank that he couldn't have gotten to and inked in the time that I was watching him. HELP!

 

[monty]

no need to panic, occasional inking shouldn't be a problem. In particular, you have a small octo in a big tank.

If you have a skimmer, that should take care of any you didn't get in the net.

Some people have stretched something like a stocking over their nets to get ink out, too, but it generally doesn't cause major problems.

 

[Steve O'Shea]

Ooops

..... can I just suggest one thing? Cannot a tissue sample be taken, as in a piece of the arm, fixed in ETOH .... then let the animal live a little longer and grow its arm back (and learn something about its biology, behaviour, longevity .... who knows), then when it dies of natural causes/misadventure it is fixed for posterity? Is it really necessary to have both parent carcass and tissue sample at the same time?


(I had posted this earlier, then thought I'd posted it in the wrong thread ... age is taking its toll on me!)

 

[Thales]

It shouldn't be a problem. I have had my system become very dark with ink, and the skimmer takes it out in less than an hour.

What skimmer are you running?

 

[Jon Crossan]

phew thats a load off my mind thanks for the quick reply monty, I appreciate it. Back to what you said Dwhately, those are great suggestions and even before you mentioned the enlarged sucker characteristic I kind of noticed some of charley's suckers being a little bit bigger than the others, mainly longer. If this trait holds true and that makes him a male I will admit I'll be somewhat disappointed just because it's extremely exciting to think that I could have baby octos. I'll try to get some pictures that show his suckers a little better. I was trying to get some pictures of him while he was on the glass today as I was doing the water change but its rather hard to stop in the middle of siphoning water to take a picture

Also I'll ask about that seachem amonia checker, that sounds like a great idea. I have a PH and Alkalinity test that I check but the Nitrates and nitrites are what I get checked at Fins.