Need help identifying this Ammonite fossil

Discussion in 'Cephalopod Fossils' started by Phil1078, Aug 17, 2010.

  1. Phil1078

    Phil1078 Blue Ring Registered

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    Hello, I am new here, and this is my first post. I just bought an Ammonite shell. It is about about an inch tall, slightly larger than an inch long, and a third of an inch in width at the opening of the shell. I got it rather cheap; the seller said it is from Morocco. Now I know it will be difficult to get it down to a genus, but as far down the taxonomic scale would be most interesting to know. Thanks!

    ~ Philip

    P.S. If more pictures (or pictures with better quality) are needed, I will try to post some more.
     

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  2. DWhatley

    DWhatley Cthulhu Staff Member Moderator

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    :welcome: If Kevin is not in France drinking beer at a wine tasteing :sagrin: he should be by shortly to either ID or send you on a fruitful search.
     
  3. Architeuthoceras

    Architeuthoceras Architeuthis Staff Member Moderator

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    That is probably Douvilleiceras sp. from Madagascar.

    D, why would we drink beer at a wine tasting? :heee:

    two weeks to go :sly:
     
  4. Phil1078

    Phil1078 Blue Ring Registered

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    Do you know any additional information about the organism?
     
  5. Architeuthoceras

    Architeuthoceras Architeuthis Staff Member Moderator

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    If that is what it is, it is Albian, Early Cretaceous, about 110 m.y. old.
     
  6. Phil1078

    Phil1078 Blue Ring Registered

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    One more question; if you had a second guess as to its identity, what would it be? Okay, one more question. What order and family do you think it is in? I am assuming Ammonitida? No clue on the family.
     
  7. Architeuthoceras

    Architeuthoceras Architeuthis Staff Member Moderator

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    Possibly a ribbed Clionoceras???? Order ammonitida, Family ???
     
  8. Architeuthoceras

    Architeuthoceras Architeuthis Staff Member Moderator

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    From the Paleobiology Database site:

    Douvilleiceras

    and/or

    Cleoniceras

    :oops: totally mis-spelled in that last post, and as far as I know Order Ammonitida is still an order of Subclass Ammonoidea
     
  9. Phil1078

    Phil1078 Blue Ring Registered

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    Great stuff! I just wanted to be able to tell people about my fossil. Thanks!
     
  10. Phil1078

    Phil1078 Blue Ring Registered

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    I am leaning towards Cleoniceras as the identity of my fossil. Here are a couple of pictures I am using for comparison. What do you think?

    Cleoniceras https://www.juniorgeo.co.uk/images/ammonites05.jpg

    Douvilleiceras https://www.juniorgeo.co.uk/images/ammonites06.jpg

    I just don't think the fossil is a ribbed as seems to be the norm for Douvilleiceras. However it would be nice if it were Douvilleiceras as I could buy this wonderful reconstruction (toy) to accompany it. http://www.mini-qt.com/catalog/item/7027864/7068529.htm

    Do you know any good sites or books for ammonite reconstructions?
     
  11. DWhatley

    DWhatley Cthulhu Staff Member Moderator

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  12. Architeuthoceras

    Architeuthoceras Architeuthis Staff Member Moderator

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    I think you are correct, Cleoniceras is a good match. :heee:
     
  13. Phil1078

    Phil1078 Blue Ring Registered

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    So I think I may be so bold as to call it Cleoniceras cleon. I do not have access to any books on Ammonites, but from some internet searching and picture comparisons, I think it is cleon.
     
  14. OB

    OB Colossal Squid Staff Member Moderator

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    I would suggest cleon's ribbing is a bit more compact than your specimen? See below:

    [​IMG]

    Your specimen:

     
  15. Phil1078

    Phil1078 Blue Ring Registered

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    Ah good point. I'll have to see if I can find any other Cleoniceras sp. pictures.
     
  16. Architeuthoceras

    Architeuthoceras Architeuthis Staff Member Moderator

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    Ahh! the species level ID, now this is where the fun starts. :grin:

    Things to take into account; 1) Ontogenetic changes, looking at a few other specimens here, it looks like the larger they get the smoother they get, the early whorls have many ribs the later whorls are smooth, at what ontogenetic stage is the specimen in question? 2) Dimorphism, is this a macroconch or a microconch, female or male, how much overlap in ornamentation is there between the two dimorphs? Between the dimorphs of different species? 3) Intraspecific variation, how much variation in the ornamentation occurs in this species, does the rib strength and spacing vary from one specimen to another? 4) Stratigraphic position, how do these change over time, does the ornamentation of a younger species match that of an older species at a different ontogenetic stage? 5) Anthropogenic modification, many fossils have been ground and polished to make them look nice, how many diagnostic characters have been ground or polished away?

    The above is mostly considering the ornamentation, if the suture lines were visible we would have to look at all of this as it applies to the suture as well.

    :read:This is the point where we go to the library and find all the literature on Cleoniceras and study it for a few years. Or take it to someone who has already done the research and let them ID it. Or wish the collector would have had it ID'd and put a label on when it was collected. Seeing all the specimens for sale on the web you'd think that someone would have a better ID.

    Of course you could just post a photo on TONMO and hope for the best :sly:
     
  17. OB

    OB Colossal Squid Staff Member Moderator

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    This one comes somewhat close, but is alas merely labeled Cleoniceras sp. :sad:

    [​IMG]
     
  18. OB

    OB Colossal Squid Staff Member Moderator

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    So, this would be C. madagascariense; a close contender?

    [​IMG]

    And this C. besairei


    [​IMG]

    I think here, the ribbing is again a bit more compact and decisively more regular than in your specimen.
     
  19. OB

    OB Colossal Squid Staff Member Moderator

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    Again, C. madagascariense.

    [​IMG]

    Would this rule out Morocco?

    Edit: I do realize many Madagascar fossils enter the marketplace via Moroccan traders.
     
  20. Architeuthoceras

    Architeuthoceras Architeuthis Staff Member Moderator

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    Color may have something to do with how they were preserved, so they may have different colors from NW Africa to Madagascar. These look a little blue and the others red. Different localities or different stratigraphy... Just saying :hmm:
     

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