Hi guys!!!

Oktoputeao

O. bimaculoides
Registered
#1
Hi guys, I'm from Spain, and oviusly I'm newby here. I have a couple of questions; Let's go!!!!

1- I live near to the mediterranian sea, What cefalopods leave here? ( I think just live here O.vulgaris, and S.officinalis isn't it?)

2- Any special acuarium conditions for this species?

2- Can I feed it whit sweet water river crabs (P. clarkii)?
 

Feelers

Vampyroteuthis
Registered
#2
Hey man :welcome: to Tonmo.

Personally I would love an O. Vulgaris, cool looking octos. The S. Officinalis would require a BIG tank, as they grow huge. I think 70g+ is a good size for the O. Vulgaris, not too sure on that though.

As for feeding it with P. clarkii, (a fresh water crustacean) personally I think that it's ok, but I think many would dissagree (Jean! :grin:).

The reason being after reading this: http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/jan2004/invert.htm.
and comparing the two foods, I think its acceptable.

But there are most likely some elements in marine food that arent found in fresh, so you are definately best off with marine, but overall there isnt too much difference in the basic nutrition they provide - fresh could actually be called healthier!! (lot less saturated fats).

If you havent already have a read through these:
http://www.tonmo.com/cephcare/cephcarejump.php
-should point you in the right direction.
 

Paradox

Haliphron Atlanticus
Supporter
#4
Hey jean, is this something that youve obeserved with your specimens? When cuttles of mine reach a good size, I tend to feed mostly shore crabs, and ghost shrimp.feeder guppies. I would love to keep feeding marine shrimp..but with 15 mouths to feed Im spending about 30$ a week just on shrimp..

Do you think shore crabs will provide enough nutirents??
 

Euprymna

O. vulgaris
Registered
#5
Oktoputeao said:
I live near to the mediterranian sea, What cefalopods leave here? ( I think just live here O.vulgaris, and S.officinalis isn't it?)
Hey oktopute:welcome:
There is more than two species of cephalopods living in the mediteranean sea. Don't forget the squids, however you won't be able to keep those in your home aquarium! You also have members of the family sepiolidae, which are relatively easy to maintain in aquaria (when adults), such as Rossia macrosoma, Sepiola robusta, Sepiola rondeleti; Sepiola obscura, S. neglecta...you also have also other species of octos such as O.macropus. So you've got plenty of choice...however, since it appears tobe your first ceph tank, you might want to try keeping O.vulgaris first as they are relatively easy...but beware they grow very fast!!

eups
 

Oktoputeao

O. bimaculoides
Registered
#6
Thanks guys for the answers!!! Squids...:sink: ! ( Bom pais e bom alimento o que teis alí :wink: )

I can get all this species, just I have to say to a fisherman that give to me one ceph alive ( oviously pre-payment:hmm: ). Or just I have to go to the sea to catch it ( relative more difficult and not safe for the animal, maybe not good idea).

In other hand, where do you obtain the crabs? Fishing? Buying it alive?
Whats up with fresh crabs no alive for feed octos?

An another think: Has Mark Norman any other book? I have the guide of cephalopods of the world and I get in love deffinitively of this animals?

P.D: I was though I was the only man who like this guys; internet surprise me all days, and the number of messages of Jean surprise me still more.
 

Armstrong

Vampyroteuthis
Registered
#7
Oktoputeao said:
Thanks guys for the answers!!! Squids...:sink: ! ( Bom pais e bom alimento o que teis alí :wink: )

I can get all this species, just I have to say to a fisherman that give to me one ceph alive ( oviously pre-payment:hmm: ). Or just I have to go to the sea to catch it ( relative more difficult and not safe for the animal, maybe not good idea).

In other hand, where do you obtain the crabs? Fishing? Buying it alive?
Whats up with fresh crabs no alive for feed octos?

An another think: Has Mark Norman any other book? I have the guide of cephalopods of the world and I get in love deffinitively of this animals?

P.D: I was though I was the only man who like this guys; internet surprise me all days, and the number of messages of Jean surprise me still more.

Just to make sure...

How are you planning to the keep any octopus? Do you have a saltwater tank ready with the right supplies needed, right size, water quality and parameters set up? Obtaining a live octopus may be difficult...but you live somewere else unlike me. Im not too sure if fisherman would allow you to have a live caught octopus from the ocean which is needed for their job...which is catching them for consumption sadly. I was actually thinking the same thing, but fisheries won't let you in...and won't let you purchase anything alive whatsoever unless you have a licensed card or somthing like that. I would just order the best species to get online.
 

Oktoputeao

O. bimaculoides
Registered
#8
First of all; I can't keep any octopus here. I'm just inform myselve to learn more about cephs, and if is possible, keep one of it. Be quite, I'm xperiencied in exotic animals keeping, and I know the 4 basic conditions that an animal need.( space to live, feeding, athmosferic/water parametres and others from the sp. that we are try to keep). Don't worry about the mediterranean sea octopus.:wink:



For me obtain a live octopus is easy. My grandmothers has 3 fishing boats with mans working in it (I just have to pay to them a little bit more than I pay for a death octopus), my uncle is the second main director of market boats in a province here in spain, a family friend fish octopus with a little boat and without damage and when his health permit it, and the last one is me; I have undersea fish lisence.



But what is the problem? I live about 40 miles far away from the sea, but here exist fishshop specialiced in seawater acuariums, and it is the reason for that that I'm answering so much.

If I can get octopus, and breed them, I think is a good idea leave it again to sea. Is really nice be swiming when suddenly, a stone become in something strange that start to move changing to white color, to finally go away in the middle of a black ink cloud. Fantastic!

( Don't worry about fishing liscence; the octopus that I fish are ONLY the oldest ones)
 

TidePool Geek

O. vulgaris
Registered
#9
Hi Oktoputeao,

You ask what would be required to keep an octopus from your local area
and what species you're likely to find there.

The most common species for the western Mediterranean is Octopus
vulgaris but, since there are at least 51 species of cephs in the Med
(mostly the eastern Med) there could be several others. The pictures
you posted indicate that you're a SCUBA diver or snorkeler; I suggest
a trip to your favorite dive shop to buy a field guide to your local
marine life because you REALLY want to know what sort of animal you're
bringing home!

Assuming that you get an O. vulgaris here are some things you'll want
to take care of:

1. Space - In terms of a home aquarium O. vulgaris is a big animal.
According to CephBase these guys can reach 125cm in total length and
2400gm in weight. For something that size a 450L tank is probably too
small although there are some folks who have kept these in a tank that
size. 800 to 1000L would be better for the animal's comfort and for
stable water quality.

2. Stable temperature - O. vulgaris is best kept at approximately 18C
but it's just as important to make sure that the temperature doesn't
fluctuate. Keep in mind that littoral marine animals might go months
without having so much as a single degree of temperature change.
Depending on the ambient temperature of your house, you may need a
heater, a chiller, or both.

3. Stable chemistry - Just as with temperature, marine animals don't
deal well with changes so you'll want your tank to mimic, as closely
as possible, the octopus' natural environment.
3a. Salinity - If I remember correctly, the Med. is somewhat saltier
than the Atlantic. It would be a good idea to check on this before you
mix up your water. Also keep in mind that the salinity in your tank
will try to change as time goes by so you'll also want to be able to
test and adjust it on a regular basis.
3b. pH/Oxygen/CaCO3 - These things plus light are all related in ways
that I don't fully understand but suffice it to say that it's
especially important to keep oxygen levels high (but without
introducing microbubbles into the tank) for an octopus. Octos use a
copper based pigment for oxygen transport in their blood and it's just
no where near as efficient as the iron based hemoglobin in our blood.
3c. Nutrients - Mainly nitrogen but also phosphorus compounds. In an
aquarium, nitrogen manifests itself in three ways A. Ammonia - Very
Bad! B. Nitrites - Pretty Bad. &C. Nitrates - Not great but not so bad
either. Read the articles in the "Ceph Care" section of this site for
strategies to remove or reduce these compounds. [Remember to scale-up
from the description since O. vulgaris is something like five times
the size of the more commonly kept O. bimaculoides. Phosphates can be
dealt with through the use of algae or it can apparently be fixed into
a harmless form through the use of a dedicated "phosphate sponge".

4. Food - Lots of it! When O. vulgaris reaches senescence it can be
more than a million times its size as a hatchling. What's more is that
it does all of this growing over the course of a 14 month lifespan.
Obviously, it's going to eat a lot and, to make matters worse, octos
tend to be messy eaters. That's potentially a strain on your budget
and on whatever filtration system you choose. Since it's probably too
far to go to the shore for octo food yourself, the best overall
compromise will be to train your octo to take (thawed) frozen shrimp
and other marine foods. Some folks feed a few fresh water items to
their octo as a "treat" but, as a full time diet, you run the risk of
the feed being deficient in one or more nutrients. Lots of food being
eaten by a slob also means lots of food scraps and octo waste in the
tank. DON'T skimp on your filtration! It's not uncommon among octo
keepers to install twice the filtration that you'd expect to find in a
fish only tank of the same size.

5. Escape proofing - A fully grown O. vulgaris can squeeze through a
hole about the size of your little finger. Further, they can lift a
surprisingly heavy tank lid far enough to escape. If you don't
completely escape-proof your tank your octo will most likely escape 5
minutes after you leave for a long summer weekend. We, in the United
States, attribute this sort of thing to Murphy's Law*; I don't know if
you've got anything similar in Spain but over here Murphy has become
extremely popular due to the government that we've saddled ourselves
with for the last several years.


Vulgarly yours,

Alex


*Murphy's Law - Anything that can go wrong......Will go wrong.
 

Oktoputeao

O. bimaculoides
Registered
#10
My idea was keep a O. vulgaris, but I will go to buy a book for inform myself better about the species that live in the mediterranean sea.
In the other hand, I'm very glad with you for help to me in the reserch of octopus care information.
Thanks guy.

P.D: Here in spain Murphy's book is also very famous.
 

Armstrong

Vampyroteuthis
Registered
#11
Just like to say that your very lucky that you've got great connections...unlike me, I have absolutely NO connections so everything I get involved with about octopuses has to be done the long way sadly:sad:
 

Jean

Colossal Squid
Supporter
#12
Paradox said:
Hey jean, is this something that youve obeserved with your specimens? When cuttles of mine reach a good size, I tend to feed mostly shore crabs, and ghost shrimp.feeder guppies. I would love to keep feeding marine shrimp..but with 15 mouths to feed Im spending about 30$ a week just on shrimp..

Do you think shore crabs will provide enough nutirents??
Yes it is, both in cephs and a variety of marine fish. I don't see why shore crabs wouldn't provide enough nutrients. Our Midget octopus gets only those (unless they sneak into the next door tank for a munch on the glass shrimp :roll: ) and they do just fine (in fact Gerbil has a clutch of eggs at the moment!)

J
 

Jean

Colossal Squid
Supporter
#13
Oktoputeao said:
In other hand, where do you obtain the crabs? Fishing? Buying it alive?
Whats up with fresh crabs no alive for feed octos?.
We collect them from the beach and for large crabs we set out crab pots (the Lab/Aquarium has a fishing permit for that). Many species won't take dead food (Our NZ species are very reluctant....actually if it isn't alive they won't look at it!).

Oktoputeao said:
An another think: Has Mark Norman any other book? I have the guide of cephalopods of the world and I get in love deffinitively of this animals?
He does, its called (I think! :grin:) "the octopus, cuttlefish and squid of Australasia"

Oktoputeao said:
P.D: I was though I was the only man who like this guys; internet surprise me all days, and the number of messages of Jean surprise me still more.
Yeah I can get into educator mode very easily! :grad: But I feel very strongly about feeding the appropriate food to captive animals (I'm sure you all noticed that!) If we are going to keep them in an unnatural environment for our enjoyment and/or education then the onus is on us to feed them as well (or better) than they would get in the wild..............OK I'll climb down from my soapbox now :oops:

J

PS anyway I'm not the TOP poster, I still got some to go to beat him!!!!!!!
 

Feelers

Vampyroteuthis
Registered
#14
Hey Jean, just out of interest is a diet based on freshwater crustaceans but supplimented with marine ok? Say with a 80% : 20% ratio. Has anyone tried this type of thing?
 

Jean

Colossal Squid
Supporter
#15
Probably, I know the marine critters LIKE the freshwater stuff, bit like having a chocolate bar I think..........so as an occasional treat I don't see why not (although I'd be inclined to go 90:10. Which is the ratio my dogs get dog food/human food!!)

Hmmmmmmmmmmmm I just noticed I read that the wrong way round! A marine animals diet should be based on MARINE food with freshwater treats not 'tother way round!!! so 90% marine, 10% Fresh!!!!

J
 

Jean

Colossal Squid
Supporter
#17
WhiteKiboko said:
much like chocolate for dogs, cant that 10% be a doozy?
Weeeeeeeeeeell the dogs don't get human choc (poisonous or something to dogs!) but they do enjoy the occasional cookie!

J
 

Feelers

Vampyroteuthis
Registered
#18
Its funny because I know some people whos dog ate a chocolate cake, with no ill effects. He obviously loved the taste- which surprised me given that it's toxic to them. I think some dogs are more succeptable than others maybe.

On the fresh vrs marine food thing dont worry, I'll be going totally marine, but I'm just interested in the idea. I was just thinking that any nutrients that are only available in marine food would be accounted for via marine supplimentation. Clearly a little marine would be better than none at all, I was thinking it might have a more pronounced effect.

For example the difference between a 90% marine diet and a 85% marine diet is probably neglegible, but maybe the difference between a 5% marine and a 0% marine might be much larger. Its kinda hard to explain what I mean.
 

Oktoputeao

O. bimaculoides
Registered
#19
Jean said:
We collect them from the beach and for large crabs we set out crab pots (the Lab/Aquarium has a fishing permit for that). Many species won't take dead food (Our NZ species are very reluctant....actually if it isn't alive they won't look at it!).



He does, its called (I think! :grin:) "the octopus, cuttlefish and squid of Australasia"



Yeah I can get into educator mode very easily! :grad: But I feel very strongly about feeding the appropriate food to captive animals (I'm sure you all noticed that!) If we are going to keep them in an unnatural environment for our enjoyment and/or education then the onus is on us to feed them as well (or better) than they would get in the wild..............OK I'll climb down from my soapbox now :oops:

J

PS anyway I'm not the TOP poster, I still got some to go to beat him!!!!!!!
Thanks Jean!
I'll buy this book!
 

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