May Have flamboyant hook-up

[monty]

One of our biologists should jump in here and tell us more, because I really don't know much about their scarcity. My understanding is they are more like shelled octopus rather than a true Nautilus. Do a google search and you'll see some good pictures.

Dan

This is another name for an Argonaut. I believe that they are believed to be a variation on octopus, rather than a close relative of real nautilus; the shell is formed in a different way, from organs on one of the arm pairs, unlike a nautilus, and otherwise the morphology is almost identical to an octopus (8 arms, no tentacles, suckers, etc.) I've never heard of one being kept in an aquarium or sold as a pet, though.

 

[William Tyson]

Hmm, not a good sign. Even though i am (to a much lesser degree than others) part of the proublem, this croses the line and builds a walmart.

I realy hope i never see a paper nautalis on one of our lists or any nautalists to that degree. I think the proublem with the ceph trade, and the whole marine trade in general; is the fact that nothing is done in moderation. It is all bindge improting and bindge colecting. Even with liverock, something we would all see as commonplace, there is so much over harvesting and pilliging of the reef scape that in 50 years ill bet the majority of the "reef" will be sitting in homes across the world.

How would i fix the proublem? Make a Minimum survival rate that all importers have to maintain during colection, importation, and a certain number of days/hours the ainimal is in the U.S.


(sry for the mini rant, i know im a hippocrit"

 

[Illithid]

I like the answer that Florida found for live rock.

Check out www.tampabaysaltwater.com -they have a plot of land in the bay that they can put their own rock to create live rock.

Really pretty ingenius -I think.

You can't stop everyone wanting live rock, and the ocean organisms are free and needing a home. the only limiting factor is the rocks and land to put them on. So... get some underwater desert with no life and stock it with rock so... life will come. Doesn't tax the natural reef and the rocks that are harvested are the correct size and shape for live rock, just have to wait.

That is true conservation, not withholding live rock that would hurt everone's filtering for the livestock they get, but creating their own with replenishable resources.

Eggs are a good example of that too. As Feelers mentioned most eggs die in the wild, but they travel the best for importers. They also would be the least stressed when hatched and captive raised. Good survivability, longer life, and less stress on the livestock = better chance of breeding = less future stress on wild populations.

 

[William Tyson]

well said.

 

[Feelers]

I wouldnt worry too much about "Paper Nautilus" - yes they are argonauts. (very different from Nautilus)
They are basicially open water octos but with shells that they "weave" with modified arms. Only the females are like this, the males are much smaller (centimeters).

I believe they have an unusual population structure that is naturally "unstable" in that they have a "broke then bust" system.
In many places every few years thousands!!! wash up on beaches. They sometimes cruise around in big chains holding onto eash other like a congo-line.

As for their rarity - they are out in the open ocean, and I'd geuss if they can even find any it must be a good year for their reproduction ("go for broke phase"), so the removal of a few will likely have a tiny impact.
I'd be very interested in seeing how well they do if properly cared for, fascinating animals that no-one knows much about at all.
If you order them be warned they are supposed to be very difficult.

Heres a good however brief descripton.
Sorry, that's a dead link (404)

I'd love to see how someone went with them.

 

[Thales]

Hey guys,

I am in Tonga and just had dive with squid!

I am torn about this - just as torn as when I get a call from a wholesaler telling me they have a flam or a mimic. What to do? Not buying it means it will prolly end up in someones tank that has no idea how to care for it. Buying it means that they think there is a market for the animal and it will continue to get collected.

I am honored that some of you think I might have a chance with these guys and am surely willing to give it a shot.

We don't know about the surrvival rates of flam eggs in the wild (at least not that I am aware of), in fact, I don't even think we have any idea of how many eggs there are at all. So, the fact that there are eggs doesn't less my worries about impact on natural populations.

Anyway, these are my initial, sun baked, squid infested thoughts on the subject written across the worst dial up in Tonga. Hopefully, I will see Neil Diamonds biggest fan tommorow in Auckland!

 

[Brock Fluharty]

I most certainly will not buy any type of animal that i'm not 100% sure I can keep. I will not buy a paper nautilus, or a flammy, unless special ordered by someone such as Righty. Not pressuring you at all, Righty, I just wanted to be clear that I do not plan on getting them on a regular basis.

 

[Feelers]

Has anyone kept an argonaut before? I would be very interested to see how keeping one went. As I said before they wash up in their thousands, so I wouldnt worry about their rarity (as I would the flams).

They often wash up in NSW (Austrailia), so maybe there are some in NZ waters.... hmmmm. If it were me I'd get one and see how it went.
Most references(on the the net) about keeping things like cuttlefish ect are out of date, and you might have a better shot at keeping them than was originally thought. I remember reading one on cuttles that said they were impossible to keep.

I most certainly will not buy any type of animal that i'm not 100% sure I can keep.

I fully understand your positon, but I think curiousity would get the best of me in this situation.

 

[Toren]

An Update:
i will not go passing out flam eggs like the easter bunny.

Not even chocolate ones?

 

[Brock Fluharty]

I understand, but I assume that they get pretty big. Also, they probably need cold waters. If there are at least 5 people that really want someone to try, I will, or if someone else wants one, I could get one, like for you Feelers. Sounds like you really want one. Can someone give me a good estimate at what they would eat, how big they get, ect. I am asking for sugestions, since I know that not a lot of people (if any) have kept them. They don't look as good as in the pic above though.

Brock

 

[Feelers]

Dont worry I'm waaaay out here in NZ, so I wouldn't be able to import one. As for temps, your looking southern australia temps -subtropical say 72F, as a geuss? 15- 25C

They eat jellyfish, salps, crustaceans ect. They dont get too big, 25cm max shell length according to Mark Norman. Apparantly they live after breeding too - so they might live many years.

And apparantly they are found around NZ! , although I'm geussing it would be quite hard to procure.

 

[cuttlegirl]

Originally posted by Toren
Not even chocolate ones?

Maybe chocolate covered squid?

 

[Brock Fluharty]

If a few people think I should give it a shot, to see how it is, then I will.

 

[Feelers]

Scroll down a bit down the page till you get to Paper Nautilus
http://www.mlssa.asn.au/journals/1997Journal.htm

Some good info. I really want one now!

 

[Illithid]

Ceph World Guide has some info on Argonauts too. Says same thing, wash up by the thousands. They can even come out of thier shell, and when they do they look like a octo!