Ziva, first look ID Please..

Discussion in 'ID Requests' started by eng50, Jun 5, 2009.

  1. eng50

    eng50 O. bimaculoides Registered

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    Sadly, Olie, our first octo passed to the great sea in the sky a week ago. He was a true Briareus acquired from Tom's 8 months ago, he was a good size when we got him so I guess natural order has taken him. We enjoyed him so much we ordered another from SWF.com to try to get a filosus, sp? this time.

    Just started the acclimation, on what I must say is a very nice octo from SWF.com as I have heard prior they advertise 'Octopus briareus' but many here have said they are really Carribean two spot or filosus?

    Anyone want to guess yet?

    Hard to see any 'eye spot' as he is mostly whiteish (not very happy) however, he is not breathing heavy or appear to be overly stressed for the shipping! Nice not to open a bag of ink this time!! Going very slow as we are not in emergency mode this time...

    Bill
     
  2. eng50

    eng50 O. bimaculoides Registered

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    Here he is, could not get it on the original post..
     

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  3. eng50

    eng50 O. bimaculoides Registered

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    Think I see definite spots! Of course can't get ay pics until he decides to come out. He is in his tank now and its waiting time...
    He was quite playful before I put him in already..I introduced a cup to transfer him in and we played in and out and rub my head! Pretty good start..
     
  4. Nancy

    Nancy Titanites Staff Member Moderator

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    Welcome to Ollie Jr.!

    Nancy
     
  5. Tommycs

    Tommycs Wonderpus Supporter

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    A few people on this forum have reported getting hummelincki's from saltwaterfish.com. It is hard to tell from that picture but what you got very well could be a Hummelincki (don't quote me on it), and if you don't know too much about the species you could always look at Dwhatley's journals on the few Hummelincki's she had. I personally think that it is a great octopus. :welcome: :octopus2:
     
  6. eng50

    eng50 O. bimaculoides Registered

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    Thank you..Will follow with pics when he reappears...

    Bill
     
  7. DWhatley

    DWhatley Cthulhu Staff Member Moderator

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    Bill,
    The thick head, eyes, arm length, purple sucker tips and the orangish spot patten look right for hummelincki (no longer called filosus but I still have some questions about the original filosus and hummelincki being the same octopus but this would be hummelincki). The disposition is also more hummelincki like than our single experience with briareus SueNami. You should start seeing him/her on the glass during the day in less than two weeks but stay visible and let him/her come out on its own (as it appears you are doing). Tommycs mentioned that you can see lots of photos in my journals of Octane and OhToo if you want to compare but if you have seen the blue eyespot surrounded by yellow that will pretty much answer the id question.
     
  8. eng50

    eng50 O. bimaculoides Registered

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    D,
    I was hoping you would respond, when I first started with these wonderful creatures, your journals and Animal Mothers as well, were invaluable!! I have gone back and looked at most of your photos and am certain of the hummelincki ID. I truly hope to have nearly the experience you have had with yours..Do you have any thoughts on male vs female disposition, etc?

    Thank you

    Bill
     
  9. eng50

    eng50 O. bimaculoides Registered

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    To our surprise, when the lights came on there she was! Waiting on the glass! After watching us for several hours, she decided to grab on of the medium size turbos for lunch..I'm glad shes eating but have to try and adjust the escargot to shrimp and crab!

    A few questions / concerns on this kind of octopus..

    She is awkward (jerky) in her movement (swimming and moving on the rock) as well as slow! In stark contrast to what we are used to lightning attacks, and very fluid movement by the Briarius. Is this normal?

    She also moves as if she has a front side if that makes sense..her front two arms are definitely left and right with head in the center, contrast to the Briarius that moved in any direction at will without a defined 'front'..

    She other wise seems fine, eating, changing color and shape/texture, all arms moving well, alert, aware of surroundings, etc..

    Thank you,

    Bill
     
  10. DWhatley

    DWhatley Cthulhu Staff Member Moderator

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    All the differences between the briareus and hummelincki are well posted observations (I hope more people will do this kind of comparitive) and I would say that I have seen a similar difference (in reverse as far as the octos go). The jerky motion may be similar to the notes I made where both hummelinckis (Octane and OhToo) seemed to get "stuck" on the acrylic during their introduction period. Ultimately, they could traverse the walls without appearing to have difficulty regulating how much suction to apply but I don't recall seeing this motion on the LR.

    An apparent "front" is an interesting thought in that I recorded that the briareus could move its head (or at least the eye stalks together in a swiveling motion) where the hummelincki needed to turn its entire body. I think we are recording the same difference but in opposite perspectives.

    I would recommend putting live fiddlers in there soon and offering thawed shrimp on a stick ASAP. The hummelincki have been very quick to take raw shrimp and may take it from a stick the first time you offer. Neither of my hummelincki actually ATE the snails they molested (check the shells - OhToo has a journal entry ending with the "eaten" turbo crawling up the glass an hour later).

    They are not quick octos, even the one I was lucky enough to see in the wild did not move quickly and never swam away during my 48 shallow dives (snorkeling without weights and very boyant) to photograph my first in situ octo. If my two were typical, you will see very little swimming, especially as they age and much more walking. Be sure Ollie Jr has a large, above ground dark area for night time sleeping as both of mine preferred to be OFF the bottom substrate. My macropus, Beldar sleeps UNDER the LR in holes she makes in the sand. The briareus, SueNami has cleared the sand and either sleeps on the wall or in a cave where he has blown the sand away but the hummelinckis chose to be above the sand completely and usually traveled the LR or walls. I would also recommend avoiding night lights unless you use red as light will keep them awake when the want to sleep and you will observe a nerveous pacing if a nice dark place is not available. We found this out when our red night light went to white after a power outage (it had a choice of colors but would not hold the setting after being turned off) and eventually just eliminated the night light as they sleep through the night. Unlike the nocturnals, there is nothing to watch and they get grumpy without their beauty rest.

    Look for enlarged suckers on the front arms and a curled third arm to the right that is not used for walking about. If you don't see either of these soon Ollie is more likely Ollivet and you current gender use of female is a good guess. Sadly, hummelincki is a small egged species so I have my fingers crossed for a male (our few females have not been long in the aquariums before brooding and seem to be somewhat smaller than the males).

    PICTURES!!!!
     
  11. eng50

    eng50 O. bimaculoides Registered

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    My wife has decided her name is to be Ziva..we shall see if she is indeed a she! Awaiting lights on now and can see her in the back by her den looking at me...

    A little history: We have a rather unique set up, it started out as a bowfront 180 reef with a 30 gallon sump. It has been up and running for about 6 years here and 3 in the house prior to this one. Now three years ago we decided to try to keep seahorses so what I did was put an acrylic divider in to create two tanks something like a 50 and 120 together..It worked so well we kept it like that following the demise of our pair of seahorses. (seahorses and live rock are not a good combination, thats for a different discussion!) A picture will help here i'm sure!

    Olie was, and now Ziva is in the smaller of the divisions kept with 2 serpent stars many snails, soft corals etc. The plan was if whatever creature we put in that side outgrew it we could move it to the large side and make the needed adaptations at that time. The plan has worked well and it is nice having two tanks in one...She is in the lower left corner of the second picture..look closely!

    We used to feed Olie free choice fish and shore shrimp (the tank would be stocked with them once a month or so so he could snack in between fidlers that we fed him directly) It worked very well and he would get to hunt as in the wild and get the human interaction as well. Do you have an opinion on this method with the Hummelincki?

    Well, she came to the front, and stayed on the partition for about an hour. Not sure if she stayed because she was frightened or for interaction with me/outside environment. The fish on the other side of the partition made her light up like a christmas tree! Still very jerky on glass, like an MS patient is the best way to describe it..but all in all she seems to be settling in..

    We gave her a fiddler last night, and I gave her a piece of shrimp on a stick this morning which she gladly accepted but as usual went back to her den and will probably be gone the rest of the day like yesterday..

    She has adopted Olies old den which I would have preferred she not do as it is around the back in an awkward place where we cant see it...but so far all I have to do is move a shell or two near the den and I see an arm fly out in protest and I know all is ok!

    We do have a red led on her side for night and will try disconnecting it to see if it helps her..Thank you for the tip! Will try to get a pic of her from the sucker side to see what you think ref male, female issue..

    Bill
     

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  12. DWhatley

    DWhatley Cthulhu Staff Member Moderator

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    If the appearance of being "stuck" is on the glass (rather than on the LR) then this is the same observation I have made on acrylic (with multiple species) and she will adjust in a week or two. There are no smooth surfaces in the ocean and I think it is learning to adjust to a surface that is overly receptive to the suction that causes the awkwardness.

    I have never fed my octos fish but often keep shore shrimp loose in the tanks that will eventually disappear. I am glad she ate the shrimp and expected as much since both of mine were very fast to accept stick feeding (Beldar, the macropus, is the only one that was very slow to eat them and still refuses the shrimp a couple of times a week). I think octos need to eat slowly and it has been common for them to take food back to their dens until they were comfortable in their tank so you may want to return to the tank in an hour and see if she will come out. Most of mine go almost catatonic for maybe half an hour after accepting food (sometimes Beldar sits for a full hour) but all of them have eventually stayed where they accepted the food once they felt secure that nothing else would try to take it away. The visiable fish may slow or negate eating in the open. The hummelincki we saw in the wild was being pestered by a wrasse (and was the reason that we saw it at all) and we suspected the fish was trying to collect scraps from its meal so I think protecting its food is a natural behavior in the wild). On the other hand, Animal Mother observerved more activity with his mercatoris when it could see other fish and felt Einy was "happier" in this kind of environment so the viewable "others" may add to the environment once Ziva understands they cannot "visit" her.

    The red LED is likely to be fine, as it was only when the light was in white light mode that we saw problems. She should be sleeping through the night and will want a dark place. Some have been reported to sleep on the glass (Carol's Oscar comes to mind) but mine always chose their dens (I don't think Oscar ever picked a den). On a typical day, mine would "wake up" around three in the afternoon and stay up until lights out (around 11:00 PM) so you might try adjusting your lighting to your own enjoyment times, allowing about 8 hours when you are most likely to be home. We noted that Octane would often "go to bed" about two seconds before lights out so he was definitely aware of some sense of timing.

    Since you mentioned my interaction experiements, here are a couple of suggestions to begin. When she starts staying out to observe you make petting motions on the glass (here again, regular, repetitive timing helps). Once she accepts the action without fleeing (and she may come to you), you can start working with her in the tank. Pick a "petting corner" and do not use any other place for the experiements and do not chase her in any way. Put your hand in the tank and slowly make the same gestures with your fingers. She should come to investigate and eventually (not long with hummelincki) touch. Allow her to touch but when she sucks down on your finger or hand and tries to pull, resist. If she does not free your hand (she likely will the first few times and may touch and run initially), lightly touch the back of her arm with a free finger or with your free hand. For whatever reason, touching the top of the arm should cause her to immediately release you (as she is learning, later she will allow even this kind of touch). Oddly enough, all my octos are less sensitive about a touch on the mantle than on the back of an arm.

    As you start with your hand inside the tank, observe what she does when she runs away and come up with something more or less natural but distinct that can be a signal for hands-out-of tank. This is very important. The action needs to be distinct and you must me consistent. With Beldar, we use all arms off the glass. SueNami has to swim through the tube to the other side (SueNami understands hand out of tank but still does not allow petting). You will be amazed on how quickly they understand this and will test you over and over so close adherence is a must. They will also learn the play corner and the fun part starts when they test you. The day Beldar "got it" she played "make the lady sit" for two full hours and you could not help but feel she was having fun making me get up and down (I have to use a small ladder to put my hand in her tank). The link for Beldar provides a first hand description of that experience and a repetition of my method. Once Ziva does not grab and accepts touch, she MAY stop interacting this way for a week or so. Just keep offering by wiggling your fingers in the play corner and she will eventually come and then be consistent there after. My experience with this "forgetting" has been common with all that I have successfully trained and I think there is something a bit unusual about octo memory. When she resumes playing, you will not start over, she will fully remember the rules and likely play daily with an occassional day she will not want to play. Additionally, she should repond anytime she is out, not just at the routine time you use to initiate the interaction.

    Good luck and please journal what you attempt, my method or any other, and the results.
     
  13. eng50

    eng50 O. bimaculoides Registered

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    D,

    I will gladly journal our experiences!! Thank you so much for your input and thoughts here..If there is anyway to move this to the journal section I would.

    I did finally figure out how to post a video while I was watching some of yours. Here it is

    link:http://www.tonmo.com/forums/vbtube_show.php?do=tube&tubeid=57&t=17054

    Let me know if this is similar behavior to what you have seen please...

    She definitely disappears/retreats to her den for the remainder of the day..not sure what thats all about yet may be still acclimation issues, we shall see.

    Your methods for interaction are very sound and we will try them as soon as she shows she is ready..Again thank you!!

    Bill
     
  14. DWhatley

    DWhatley Cthulhu Staff Member Moderator

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    You might PM Monty or Tony and request a move to the journals using your new title (easiest route is on the staff page, click on the staff member, then on send a message and choose private message).

    The movements in the video are different in that OhToo and Octane would try to leave the acrylic and would partially stick (Beldar still does this occassionally). I am not sure if acrylic is more of a problem than glass initially but suspect this is the case. We are going to build out an old glass tank soon (finally had it drilled but weekends are booked though early July), replacing an acrylic, to provide a larger environment for the next hummelincki so I should be able to make a comparison, eventually. I suspect the issue is the same, but you have an added element of interested/interesting fish. Ziva does NOT appear to be trying to flee (more like trying to cross the strange barrier to investigate) but I am not sure what she is trying to do. Watching the octo in my one in situ experience did not suggest that the octo had any interest in catching the fish but that may be because it had just eaten and the fish was being pesky while looking for scraps. I have seen my octos (all species) shoo away the shore shrimp often but they eventually disappear and I don't think they died naturally. There were two peppermint shrimp in Bel's tank to control aptasia. One was somewhat agressive, it disappeared. The other is very much aware that there is a preditor in the tank and when I see it scurry to a new location, I can count on Beldar emerging from the evacuated location. Interestingly, it does not appear she is trying to catch it but the shrimp has learned to stay well out of harms way.
     
  15. eng50

    eng50 O. bimaculoides Registered

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    Sexing pic..

    Does she look like a she?? I do not see anything unusual about the third arm but don't really know what I am looking for...

    So far she has finally settled on her den (obsessively moving the same 2 shells for a week) and is now out and about all day! What a change from the Briarius..!

    The texture changes shes capable of are incredible, she has horns one second and spiky all over with incredible color patterning, then poof shes baby smooth and flesh tone or black or whatever color she wants!

    D, we have just started to establish the rules, food on one side, and touch on the other. She comes to top of the tank with her eyes/mantle toward the fingers we put in, smooth texture and neutral color. I take it this is a 'trusting' approach? vs an aggressive or exploratory approach? We are still in the 'what is Ziva going to do to Bill and what is Bill going to do to Ziva phase! Havent really let her grab on yet, just lightly touched her arms and she doesnt run off. We thought she was hungry, fed her a crab which she held onto but still wanted to come up to touch while holding the crab. We didnt think we should encourage this as she may think it was more food...but the approach was the same as described above...

    Thanks! I will try to get this moved soon..

    Bill
     

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  16. DWhatley

    DWhatley Cthulhu Staff Member Moderator

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    THAT'S TYPICAL HUMMELINCKI!:grin:

    I have read remberances that bimacs are equally as friendly but the journals on hummelincki suggest they interact more and more frequently than any of the other journalled species. Unfortunately for the visual impact, the smooth skin and more or less bland coloration seems indicitave of a content hummelincki. After a month or so you will not likely to be treated to the fantastic shapes and colors very often. Hopefully you will get to see, at least once, the bright white with vivid blue eye spot pose. I have one poor shot of Octane like this but even the dogs became everyday shortly and the look is only displayed when they are startled.

    As long as she (can't really tell from the photos, the sucker enlargement is not always obvious - watch for the third arm to the right -clockwise - to be mostly unused and usually curled) does not try to pull your hand to her mouth allow her to explore. You should not expect a fast attack and should have enough warning of her intent to gently react. With the males, resistence and a touch on the top of the arm was all we needed to be released. Hummelincki is not an aggressive species (a summary observation, not just from my experience) and will completely stop securing your fingers with her suckers when she explores.

    Once they continually accept petting, most anyone they will come to can pet them. This was particularly evident when my mother (we do favor) just put her hand in the tank and Octane came up to be petted immediately. With other strangers there was usually some coaxing needed (from me). Both my males seemed to differentiate human males from females, preferring the females.

    You may see a reversal or halting of the friendship process for as much as two weeks but when it returns, it should not reverse again. This observation along with a couple of others makes me think there is something unusual about their long term memory that standard experiments don't address.

    Others have reported females moving tank substrate around (or moving something back where it belonged after a disruption during tank cleaning). Neither of my males moved objects around in the tank and I am keeping my fingers crossed that the shell rearrangement is not a sign of getting ready to brood.

    More pictures please, I miss not keeping one in spite of my two interesting critters.
     
  17. eng50

    eng50 O. bimaculoides Registered

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    It is most unfortunate that I must report that Ziva has met with an untimely death...I do not as yet have any explanation why, she ate 48 hrs ago and have not seen her since. Upon trying to locate her this evening, we found the shredded remains of her in the back of the tank...I am at a loss to understand what has happened...does anyone know what might kill a seemingly healthy octopus in 16 days? I will let you know if we find anything further..no other critters have been affected as we know of..

    Bill & Joan
     
  18. DWhatley

    DWhatley Cthulhu Staff Member Moderator

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    Every once in awhile we loose one for puzzling reasons, most show signs of problems a week or two before dying.

    When you say shredded remains, did you see clean-up crew doing their job? If not, is there a chance something crossed the barrier and returned? I suspect it is not likely since you are using plexiglass but fish can do a number on a weak or small octo (video observations). It is unlikely there is something on the octo side (like a mantis shrimp) if the barrier was not breached since the briareus live there for 10 months but none of mine have been found "shredded" or even decomposed in the time frame given so I suspect a critter attack if clean-up crew were not in evidence.

    You might try putting a shrimp or some other tempting food item on the octo side and see if it is moved or eaten just to be sure there is no sneaky pest getting or residing on that side.
     

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