Were nautiloids responsible?

Fujisawas Sake

Larger Pacific Striped Octopus
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#2
Interesting article. But don't you think that's more of a gastropod mode of attack? Then again, how do nautiloids eat?
 

Phil

Colossal Squid
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#3
Could well be John. Octopus certainly leave drill holes in shells, I'm not sure how similar the radula was on a nautiloid to that of octopus though. They probably pretty much ate anything smaller than them and scurrying I'd imagine. Ordovician trilobites needed their defensive spines for some reason, and nautiloids were top predator...
 

Fujisawas Sake

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#4
Yeah, that is a good point. The Burgess Shale is full of pointy, spiky forms. Even ancient chitons had some nasty looking spines.

John
 

Jean

Colossal Squid
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#5
To chip in here (:grin:) those holes look just like the ones we see in bivalves from our local oyster borer (Lepsiella scobina). It just looks gastropodish to me.

J
 

Taollan

Vampyroteuthis
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#7
Probably not...

While it could be a nautiloid, The holes don't seem right. Cephalopods drill bivalve shells in order to inject a venom that will kill or atleast nearly kill the animal inside, put them pull the shell and eat from the opened shell. This means that the hole needs to only be a pin prick. drilling as small of whole as you need with a radula will generally produce an oval drill. These holes seem to be more rounded and larger than one would expect from a hole merely intended for venom injection. This appears to be more like a gastropod drill, which feed through the hole rather than pulling the shell. This probably is not gastrood either, however, as drilling gastropods aren't thought to have evolved untill 110 million years ago, formly in the Mesozoic, long after these poor brachiopods met their fate.
 

Jean

Colossal Squid
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#8
ooooooooh the mystery drill!!! I wonder what our photoshop guru's can do with that!!!!

J
 

Jean

Colossal Squid
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#10
Hi Phil,

Got it but it's too big to put on here (it's a 1.34 meg pdf file) I'll email it to you!

J
 

Architeuthoceras

Architeuthis
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#11
http://www.cephdev.utmb.edu/refdb/pdf/7834.pdf

http://gsa.confex.com/gsa/2005AM/finalprogram/abstract_91970.htm

http://www.listserv.uga.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0108b&L=conch-l&F=&S=&P=489

http://www.geol.vt.edu/paleo/Kowalewski_etal_2000.pdf

http://www.bioone.org/bioone/?request=get-document&issn=0883-1351&volume=017&issue=03&page=0292

http://www.geol.vt.edu/paleo/Kowalewski_etal_1998.pdf

http://www.rsnz.org/publish/nzjmfr/1991/28.pdf

http://marine.alaskapacific.edu/octopus/museum.html

It has been a slow day at work so I did this small lit search looking for pictures of shells drilled by a cephalopods. The last link has some pics, though small, its hard to see the shape of the drill hole. Anyone got a picture of a hole drilled by an octopus? Too bad I already voted, I just might change my mind :hmm:
 

Architeuthoceras

Architeuthis
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#13
AMIKUQ
The Giant Octopus in Prince William Sound & Cook Inlet


Near the bottom of the page above is a sketch of a drill hole made by the GPO, looks a little different than those in the brachiopods. Like Taollan said, just a small penetration of the shell is needed. Since the radula of paleozoic nautiloids was somewhat like ammonoids, and that of ammonoids had a more or less distinct similarity to that of octopods I will stand by my no vote. :smile: unless new data proves otherwise :roll:
 

spartacus

Haliphron Atlanticus
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#14
As between them, Jean & Kevin must pretty much know everything I'm going for "no". Not very scientific I know but I'm oddsing it in light of my ignorance.

Keef
 

Jean

Colossal Squid
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#15
spartacus said:
As between them, Jean & Kevin must pretty much know everything I'm going for "no". Not very scientific I know but I'm oddsing it in light of my ignorance.

Keef
MWAHAHAHAHAHA! fooled you all 'cackle':twisted:

Thanks for the kind words Keef but I actually know very little about these prehistoric beasties I just reckon that hole looks like what our whelks do to our clams!!!

J
 

bigGdelta

Vampyroteuthis
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#16
I was not aware cephs had a radula like other mulluscs, although this should have been evident. Again i learn something new from tonmo.:grad:
 

spartacus

Haliphron Atlanticus
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#17
Jean said:
MWAHAHAHAHAHA! fooled you all 'cackle':twisted:

Thanks for the kind words Keef but I actually know very little about these prehistoric beasties I just reckon that hole looks like what our whelks do to our clams!!!

J
Jean, exactly my point ! Kevin does the old stuff (sorry, and Sir Phil of Folkestone) & you can do the comparisons with the new stuff, so modest.

Keef
 

Architeuthoceras

Architeuthis
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#18
The only way to know anything at all about the "old stuff" is to study and understand the "new stuff" :grad:

As an aside, Phil, you're the archaeologist, is there a good way to determine that ancient people did'nt drill those holes (other than they were probably not found in an archaeological context and probably were found in a paleontological one)? Maybe i've just seen too many drilled trilobites lately :cyclops:
 

Jean

Colossal Squid
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#20
Architeuthoceras said:
The only way to know anything at all about the "old stuff" is to study and understand the "new stuff" :grad:

As an aside, Phil, you're the archaeologist, is there a good way to determine that ancient people did'nt drill those holes (other than they were probably not found in an archaeological context and probably were found in a paleontological one)? Maybe i've just seen too many drilled trilobites lately :cyclops:
Well, I'm not Phil!!!!!!!!!! nor an archaeologist (although I did do 2 semesters!) but my :twocents: I would think that for a human to drill through would be a waste of time when they could just bash it with a rock or prise it open with flint or other shells. whaddaya reckon?????


J
 

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