Were nautiloids responsible?

Discussion in 'Cephalopod Fossils' started by Phil, Nov 5, 2005.

  1. Phil

    Phil Colossal Squid Supporter Registered

    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2002
    Messages:
    3,034
    Likes Received:
    16
    Studies of predation damage in Palaeozoic brachiopods have uncovered unidentifiable drill holes. Were nautiloids responsible?

    Original report
     
  2. Fujisawas Sake

    Fujisawas Sake Larger Pacific Striped Octopus Supporter Registered

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2002
    Messages:
    1,169
    Likes Received:
    2
    Interesting article. But don't you think that's more of a gastropod mode of attack? Then again, how do nautiloids eat?
     
  3. Phil

    Phil Colossal Squid Supporter Registered

    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2002
    Messages:
    3,034
    Likes Received:
    16
    Could well be John. Octopus certainly leave drill holes in shells, I'm not sure how similar the radula was on a nautiloid to that of octopus though. They probably pretty much ate anything smaller than them and scurrying I'd imagine. Ordovician trilobites needed their defensive spines for some reason, and nautiloids were top predator...
     
  4. Fujisawas Sake

    Fujisawas Sake Larger Pacific Striped Octopus Supporter Registered

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2002
    Messages:
    1,169
    Likes Received:
    2
    Yeah, that is a good point. The Burgess Shale is full of pointy, spiky forms. Even ancient chitons had some nasty looking spines.

    John
     
  5. Jean

    Jean Colossal Squid Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2002
    Messages:
    4,215
    Likes Received:
    133
    Location:
    Dunedin, New Zealand
    To chip in here (:grin:) those holes look just like the ones we see in bivalves from our local oyster borer (Lepsiella scobina). It just looks gastropodish to me.

    J
     
  6. Architeuthoceras

    Architeuthoceras Architeuthis Staff Member Moderator

    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2002
    Messages:
    2,389
    Likes Received:
    92
    Location:
    somewhere under the desert sky
    I just had to check the no box. Why would anything spend the time to drill into a brachiopod? There is nothing (very little anyway) inside!
     
  7. Taollan

    Taollan Vampyroteuthis Supporter

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2005
    Messages:
    292
    Likes Received:
    45
    Location:
    Walla Walla University
    Probably not...

    While it could be a nautiloid, The holes don't seem right. Cephalopods drill bivalve shells in order to inject a venom that will kill or atleast nearly kill the animal inside, put them pull the shell and eat from the opened shell. This means that the hole needs to only be a pin prick. drilling as small of whole as you need with a radula will generally produce an oval drill. These holes seem to be more rounded and larger than one would expect from a hole merely intended for venom injection. This appears to be more like a gastropod drill, which feed through the hole rather than pulling the shell. This probably is not gastrood either, however, as drilling gastropods aren't thought to have evolved untill 110 million years ago, formly in the Mesozoic, long after these poor brachiopods met their fate.
     
  8. Jean

    Jean Colossal Squid Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2002
    Messages:
    4,215
    Likes Received:
    133
    Location:
    Dunedin, New Zealand
    ooooooooh the mystery drill!!! I wonder what our photoshop guru's can do with that!!!!

    J
     
  9. Phil

    Phil Colossal Squid Supporter Registered

    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2002
    Messages:
    3,034
    Likes Received:
    16
  10. Jean

    Jean Colossal Squid Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2002
    Messages:
    4,215
    Likes Received:
    133
    Location:
    Dunedin, New Zealand
    Hi Phil,

    Got it but it's too big to put on here (it's a 1.34 meg pdf file) I'll email it to you!

    J
     
  11. Architeuthoceras

    Architeuthoceras Architeuthis Staff Member Moderator

    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2002
    Messages:
    2,389
    Likes Received:
    92
    Location:
    somewhere under the desert sky
    http://www.cephdev.utmb.edu/refdb/pdf/7834.pdf

    http://gsa.confex.com/gsa/2005AM/finalprogram/abstract_91970.htm

    http://www.listserv.uga.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0108b&L=conch-l&F=&S=&P=489

    http://www.geol.vt.edu/paleo/Kowalewski_etal_2000.pdf

    http://www.bioone.org/bioone/?request=get-document&issn=0883-1351&volume=017&issue=03&page=0292

    http://www.geol.vt.edu/paleo/Kowalewski_etal_1998.pdf

    http://www.rsnz.org/publish/nzjmfr/1991/28.pdf

    http://marine.alaskapacific.edu/octopus/museum.html

    It has been a slow day at work so I did this small lit search looking for pictures of shells drilled by a cephalopods. The last link has some pics, though small, its hard to see the shape of the drill hole. Anyone got a picture of a hole drilled by an octopus? Too bad I already voted, I just might change my mind :hmm:
     
  12. tonmo

    tonmo Titanites Staff Member Webmaster Moderator

    Joined:
    May 30, 2000
    Messages:
    8,671
    Likes Received:
    489
    Location:
    Pennsylvania
    ...nice thread guys!

    /clicks to give it a 5-star rating
     
  13. Architeuthoceras

    Architeuthoceras Architeuthis Staff Member Moderator

    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2002
    Messages:
    2,389
    Likes Received:
    92
    Location:
    somewhere under the desert sky
    AMIKUQ
    The Giant Octopus in Prince William Sound & Cook Inlet


    Near the bottom of the page above is a sketch of a drill hole made by the GPO, looks a little different than those in the brachiopods. Like Taollan said, just a small penetration of the shell is needed. Since the radula of paleozoic nautiloids was somewhat like ammonoids, and that of ammonoids had a more or less distinct similarity to that of octopods I will stand by my no vote. :smile: unless new data proves otherwise :roll:
     
  14. spartacus

    spartacus Haliphron Atlanticus Registered

    Joined:
    Apr 8, 2004
    Messages:
    602
    Likes Received:
    0
    As between them, Jean & Kevin must pretty much know everything I'm going for "no". Not very scientific I know but I'm oddsing it in light of my ignorance.

    Keef
     
  15. Jean

    Jean Colossal Squid Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2002
    Messages:
    4,215
    Likes Received:
    133
    Location:
    Dunedin, New Zealand
    MWAHAHAHAHAHA! fooled you all 'cackle':twisted:

    Thanks for the kind words Keef but I actually know very little about these prehistoric beasties I just reckon that hole looks like what our whelks do to our clams!!!

    J
     
  16. bigGdelta

    bigGdelta Vampyroteuthis Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 29, 2005
    Messages:
    403
    Likes Received:
    0
    I was not aware cephs had a radula like other mulluscs, although this should have been evident. Again i learn something new from tonmo.:grad:
     
  17. spartacus

    spartacus Haliphron Atlanticus Registered

    Joined:
    Apr 8, 2004
    Messages:
    602
    Likes Received:
    0
    Jean, exactly my point ! Kevin does the old stuff (sorry, and Sir Phil of Folkestone) & you can do the comparisons with the new stuff, so modest.

    Keef
     
  18. Architeuthoceras

    Architeuthoceras Architeuthis Staff Member Moderator

    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2002
    Messages:
    2,389
    Likes Received:
    92
    Location:
    somewhere under the desert sky
    The only way to know anything at all about the "old stuff" is to study and understand the "new stuff" :grad:

    As an aside, Phil, you're the archaeologist, is there a good way to determine that ancient people did'nt drill those holes (other than they were probably not found in an archaeological context and probably were found in a paleontological one)? Maybe i've just seen too many drilled trilobites lately :cyclops:
     
  19. spartacus

    spartacus Haliphron Atlanticus Registered

    Joined:
    Apr 8, 2004
    Messages:
    602
    Likes Received:
    0
    Kevin, I've only just noticed that you've been promoted, well done Sir ! :thumbsup:
    Make sure Tony pays the going rate as Phil is apparently on phat bucks :twocents:

    Keef
     
  20. Jean

    Jean Colossal Squid Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2002
    Messages:
    4,215
    Likes Received:
    133
    Location:
    Dunedin, New Zealand
    Well, I'm not Phil!!!!!!!!!! nor an archaeologist (although I did do 2 semesters!) but my :twocents: I would think that for a human to drill through would be a waste of time when they could just bash it with a rock or prise it open with flint or other shells. whaddaya reckon?????


    J
     

Share This Page