Tank renovation - Filtration

[Feelers]

Hey guys, thought I might run my plumbing plans past you - I just thought about incorporating the bioball tower and what do you think? (The tower fits into the second diagram.)

This way my skimmer is gravity fed - I can adjust the flow with a ball valve, and I can control the flow to the fuge and if there is too much or I need to clean the skimmer I can let flow run out the middle tap. The will also be a ball valve coming from the tank - so I can disconnect the plumbing - (forgot to draw it in)

Whats the deal with a pre filter - and how could I put it into this system? Do you have any suggestions? At the moment I'm gonna have to rig up a bigger pump than the one on my skimmer - so I can sort the venturi to run whilst being gravity fed.

I'll follow that link and try and sort out how many bio balls I need, which will dictate the size of the tower. From the looks of it I'll probably go with around 3 - 5 L.

I'm completely in planning at the moment - so no rush.

 

[DHyslop]

I'm planning on about 4 gallons (~16 liters) of bioballs for my bimac setup. A couple things that pop into my head looking at your pics:

-I assume you have some sort of water distributing tray with holes at the top of the tower. This may be a place to put some prefilter material. Are you still looking at Dursos--you might be able to put a filter sponge on your overflow intake.

-You might not need to use the ball valve to control how much goes into the skimmer and how much to the other chambers. The skimmer gravity-feed inlet (on mine, anyway) is small enough that it limits the amount of water that goes in.

-I think having the standpipe in the tower will be counterproductive. Less bacteria are going to grow on the submerged bioballs than on the ones exposed to air.

Dan

 

[Feelers]

Man thats a lot of bioballs!!!

Yeah I'll have something to distribute the water - dont know what exactly though. Still going with the durso's, I think I might be able to put the prefilter there - depending on how I octoproof it.

So the standpipe is out? - I was just thinking about how some setups have around 1/3 submerged, but if there is no reason to I'll take it out.

The ball valve in the skimmer is just because I'm not sure how much flow I'll be dealing with - and I have to swap the factory standard pump with a more powerful one - it will hopefully give me a little more control.

Cheers Dan , I'm slowly getting my head around things.

 

[DHyslop]

I believe the reason most commercial wet/dry setups have about 1/3 submerged is that it is a necessary design evil. Most setups have the tower right in the sump, and there has to be some water level in the sump to keep the pump and other equipment from going dry. If water is flowing from the bioball chamber into the sump chamber, physics precludes the water level in the bioball chamber from being lower than that in the sump chamber, unless the bioball chamber was elevated.

Dan

 

[Colin]

yeah, that sright, its just the way they are made. The big TMC trickle tower runs on top of the filter so it is all 'dry', quite handy.

Also, you will need baffles on the refugium so the beasties and algae etc doesnt get washed into the middle section and shredded with the pump!

Dont restrict how fast the pump works. That might be necessary in a case where the tank has just one overflow going through the skimmer. As you said you can bypass the skimmer into the sump but you'll then need a 2nd prefilter box.

you couldnt get the prefilter first, then skimmer then into bioballs?

 

[DHyslop]

I tried really hard to come up with a way to skim my system before the biofilter, but without an external/HOB (read: waterproof) skimmer, it pretty much means having to have a second sump right below the overflow with the skimmer in it, overflowing into the bioballs, then into the lower sump with return pump.

On the other hand there is a lot of oxygen demand in them thar bioballs, so as long as I have a prefilter, I think its a good thing to have the skimmer second.

Dan

 

[Illithid]

I always liked having the skimmer second. I feel that the bioballs are the more dynamic media-they filter more when they are fed the most. The skimmer has a set amount it draws out-whether the waste is there or not.

Put in the most bioballs you can fit(with good water distribution) and they will be the cheapest, most effective bio filter you can get.

I am setting up my tank too. Just bought all my tubs at Walmart today.

I am using multiple sumps and just stacking the bioballs on first tub on top and a sand bed in the second on the bottom (water outlet high on the second tub). The third plumbed in the middle for water changes(so it is mostly closed from the system), and the fourth is for skimmers, chemical and return pump -all in the stand. Multiple tubs are cheap and good flood insurance.
I can make a diagram if you are interested.

 

[Illithid]

Attached is my planned setup(tanksetup.pdf), and an idea for your setup(onetank.pdf).

Can you use a shorter first bio-ball tub to leave room for your skimmer in the sump and replace the sand with the skimmer and return pump?

Than you have a pre-filter and open air balls for max efficiency. You could have one sump under the entire tank and just go up in height. Split your single overflow to cover the entire prefilter/drip tray (Elevate the prefilter with a piece of flat acrylic for the drip tray to work.) \

Only thing missing is a nitrate filter, use live rock and a DSB.

 

[Scouse]

Am I missing something here?

People use live rock as biological filtration and also people use bio-balls for BF, one submerged in water (l.rock) and one out (BB's).

Well if live rock is the best natural filtration would it not be best to recreate that with bio-balls underwater.

Whats the benefit of having out of water?

On a another note are we saying bio-balls, solely for biological filtration, are better than live rock?

Cheers

 

[Colin]

the idea of having the bioballs out of water is that they only have a thin layer of water trickling over them at any time. It means that the bacteria, which is aerobic, gets lots of oxygen and its capacity for changing ammonia into nitrite and nitrite into nitrate is greatly improved.

Many people moan about them saying that they are nitrate factories because they do this 'too well'? But i suggest that getting rid of ammonia and nitrite produced by a cephalopod to a less toxic chemical, namely nitrate is the best thing possible.

Live rock being quite porous has areas within that are anaerobic so different species of bacteria can live in there that will reduce nitrate to Nitrogen which isn't possible in a tower because there is too much Oxygen.

I suggest that the normal ratio of live rocks to water volume for a reef or fish marine aquarium are one thing but a big messy ceph swimming about is totally different.

I could harp on about belt and braces again here LOL

Also, as a by the way, live rock can, over time get all clogged up just as easily as bioballs and stop working like it should, hence a lot of reef keepers have water blasting at the rocks from different angles and piles of rock in the middle of the tank rather than building up a traditional wall on the back panel of the tank.

At least with bioballs, when the ceph dies and its time to strip out the tank, which if it lived a full healthy life will need done, you can scrub and chemically clean the balls which you cant do with live rock, but then again, there are some people who cook their live rock...

 

[Scouse]

NIce one Colin

youve convinced me on my next tank i should have a tower for the belt an braces!!

..but then again, there are some people who cook their live rock...

Nutters. Is that to get the poo out of the nooks an crannies?

 

[Feelers]

Is that to get the poo out of the nooks an crannies

Basicially you chuck the rocks in a tank and turn the heat up (higher than reef conditions) and they rocks shed all the built up organics.

The reasoning behind it is that it minimises the die-off (because its all been cooked out) that happens when the rock is placed in the new environment of your tank, - which is often associated with high phospherous levels(and therefore hair algae).

Apparantly LOADS of stuff comes off.

 

[DHyslop]

Its my understanding that they use the word "cook" figuratively. People will put their rock in buckets of seawater for a month or two, changing it every week. No nutrients in. Eventually just about everything dies, gets eaten and secreted by something else, and then exported with water change.

I have yet to be sold by the idea.

Dan

 

[Feelers]

Actually I might have been wrong about the turning the heat up thing , I just thought it was to speed up the metabolism of the bacteria, to make it shed faster, (but I'm not sure if I imagined that part )
Rock cooking, it does work. - Reef Central Online Community

 

[Scouse]

Sounds mental either way! is this tied into the theory that live rock stores up nitrates an then releases it by any chance?

I thought, well pictured people with big pans of s.water on the stove boiling away!!!