Sucker Ring Composition

Discussion in 'Physiology and Biology' started by Graeme, Feb 9, 2006.

  1. Graeme

    Graeme Vampyroteuthis Registered

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2005
    Messages:
    352
    Likes Received:
    1
    OK, I couldn't find a thread on this, either I'm blind, lazy, or correct:wink: so I thought I'd sart one to ask:

    What is the actual composition of the cephalopod sucker rings? Are they just a form of chitin? I remember reading something about it in Engesser and Clarke (1988) Cephalopod Hooks,, Both Recent and Fossil but it didn't go into much more detail save that the belemnites he describes probably had a different chemical composition. I'm currently looking for papers on it, but I'm not sure if I'll find exactly what I'm looking for.

    Graeme
     
  2. Jean

    Jean Colossal Squid Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2002
    Messages:
    4,218
    Likes Received:
    138
    Location:
    Dunedin, New Zealand
    As far as I'm aware tis Chitin. I have the proteins written down somewhere I'll look it out.

    J
     
  3. Tigerkatze_82

    Tigerkatze_82 O. vulgaris Registered

    Joined:
    Jul 22, 2004
    Messages:
    92
    Likes Received:
    0
    Hi

    Maybe try this article:

    Smith, A. M. (1996). Cephalopod sucker design and the physical limits to negative pressure. Journal of Experimental Biology, 199: 949-958.

    K :sink:
     
  4. Steve O'Shea

    Steve O'Shea Colossal Squid Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2002
    Messages:
    4,668
    Likes Received:
    17
    This would make a marvelous thesis topic!!! I am afraid I cannot contribute further.

    Just imagine, an analysis of ring & hook morphology & composition across a broad (comprehensive) range of taxa. Kind-of makes me get excited, deep down inside my sooty heart.
     
  5. Graeme

    Graeme Vampyroteuthis Registered

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2005
    Messages:
    352
    Likes Received:
    1
    Thanks, Tigerkatze. I already have that paper, it's a very good one. I think it just mentioned that the armature was just chitin.

    Yeah, that's kind of what my honours project is about: very interesting, but I can only scratch the surface with a 6 month time-allowance! I would love to go into it in more detail, like do a PHd over 3 years, now THAT would be a better timescale!!! :grin: If I had the time I would investigate the chemical composition of the chitin acroass a variety of species, but since it's coming close to the deadline, I just need it on paper really. The Tree Of Life said it was a mucopolysaccharide I think, but it attributed the chitin to the beaks and shell, but did not mention sucker rings. When it did it said they were of a horny substance:confused:

    http://tolweb.org/notes/?note_id=587 it's in here.

    Graeme
     
  6. Euprymna

    Euprymna O. vulgaris Registered

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2004
    Messages:
    97
    Likes Received:
    0
    Hey Graeme,
    Interesting hons project, so what is it exactly on? I mean which species are you looking at and what sort of data you have? or will you be having?

    eups
     
  7. Graeme

    Graeme Vampyroteuthis Registered

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2005
    Messages:
    352
    Likes Received:
    1
    erm.... well it's kinda a comparative morphology of suckers and armature in cephalopods really. Massive topic, so I can't really go into it in huge detail, but I guess it will act as a sort of starting point. If you want I could send you a copy once it's done. Deadline's something like the somethingth of March:lol: it's ever looming.

    Graeme
     
  8. Steve O'Shea

    Steve O'Shea Colossal Squid Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2002
    Messages:
    4,668
    Likes Received:
    17
    DUDE!!! That is so seriously fantastic!! The rings of Architeuthis are lined with carbonate deposits you know!! As for a PhD ..... well, if you are interested you know who to call (and I'm not talking 'Ghost Busters'). This is sensational stuff!!

    Just tell me what you need in the way of equipment!
     
  9. whip squid

    whip squid Larval Mass Registered

    Joined:
    Feb 15, 2006
    Messages:
    2
    Likes Received:
    0
    sucker rings comp

    Hi Steve,
    Gottcha! I can tell you some references to find out the rings composition.
    Seeya,
    muchiika
     
  10. Graeme

    Graeme Vampyroteuthis Registered

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2005
    Messages:
    352
    Likes Received:
    1
    That would be great Whip Squid! If you could, that would make things a lot easier at the moment! I'd be very grateful for any help.

    Yeah it's a really good topic, but really hard to find literature on. It would be better as a more practical project but considering I've only had half a year, that's not so easy either!:sad: I doubt I'll get published or anything, but I am hoping to put it up on a website at some point. I think I've had to sort of branch out as well, like incorporate the history, and possible evolutionary theories. Once I get it done, I can send it to you iffen you want, just as a word doc (most likely). I'm already drawing up a plan, and the finished draft has to be in for March 13th.

    Actually, if anyone wants to proofread the dissertation before I hand it in then that'd be great, to get opinions from Ceph-experts. The only thing is that it will be far from comprehensive due to time and budget constraints; I'm hoping it will be a taster for the topic, and I aim to write it so that non-scientific types can enjoy it (if I'm allowed to!).
    I'd LOVE to do a PHd on it Steve! I'd need to find some place that would take me though! :lol:

    Graeme
     
  11. monty

    monty Colossal Squid Staff Member Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2004
    Messages:
    4,887
    Likes Received:
    11
    I'm sure plenty of folks around here would love to read it-- why not ask Tony to put it into the science articles archive?
     
  12. Graeme

    Graeme Vampyroteuthis Registered

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2005
    Messages:
    352
    Likes Received:
    1
    Whoo, cool! It depends on if it's good enough though, of course!:wink:

    Graeme
     
  13. main_board

    main_board Vampyroteuthis Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 5, 2003
    Messages:
    373
    Likes Received:
    7
    Chitin is a polysaccaride. Not sure if that's going to help, but just thought of it as a point of clarification. Good luck!

    Cheers!
     
  14. Graeme

    Graeme Vampyroteuthis Registered

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2005
    Messages:
    352
    Likes Received:
    1
    Yeah I know what the basic structure is, but I was under the impression you got lots of different variations.

    Graeme
     
  15. Fujisawas Sake

    Fujisawas Sake Larger Pacific Striped Octopus Supporter Registered

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2002
    Messages:
    1,169
    Likes Received:
    2
    Dude, did you just say "dude"?

    Duuude....

    So from what embryonic tissues are suckers derived? I mean, along its evolutionary ontogeny, if the suckers have become a section for external calcareous (or chitinous) development, could this be an evolutionary throwback to the shell?

    John
     
  16. Fujisawas Sake

    Fujisawas Sake Larger Pacific Striped Octopus Supporter Registered

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2002
    Messages:
    1,169
    Likes Received:
    2
    So are they chitinous, or calacareous, or both?
     
  17. Graeme

    Graeme Vampyroteuthis Registered

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2005
    Messages:
    352
    Likes Received:
    1
    Chitin, I think. Only calcareous part in a ceph is the internal shell of cuttles, as far as I'm aware...

    Graeme
     
  18. monty

    monty Colossal Squid Staff Member Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2004
    Messages:
    4,887
    Likes Received:
    11
    Er, I think you're forgetting nautilus in that blanket statement. I've read somewhere that the argonaut shell was evolved independently rather than being related to the shell that was lost in the coleoids, but I'm not sure how they know that or what it's made of. Given its shape, it seems likely that it inherits some from the archaic shell formations of the original ceph ancestry.

    Particularly given the the Honolulu aquarium is one of the few places to be able to raise nautilus from eggs, it's be really nifty if Martindale et. al. did the same sort of HOX control analysis for nautilus that they did for the Euprymna, and we could see how the HOX controls the layout for the shell and the non-decapod arrangement...

    (see http://www.nature.com/nature/journa...l;jsessionid=4FD50828DF36DE4CD9D3F63D7FFA444E and http://pharyngula.org/comments/558_0_1_0_C/ )
     
  19. Graeme

    Graeme Vampyroteuthis Registered

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2005
    Messages:
    352
    Likes Received:
    1
    Aye... that too! Nautilus as well! I didn't foprget I was...err... testing you!

    Graeme
     
  20. cuttlegirl

    cuttlegirl Colossal Squid Supporter Registered

    Joined:
    Sep 16, 2005
    Messages:
    4,891
    Likes Received:
    236
    Location:
    Pittsburgh, PA
    ammonites???
     

Share This Page