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Sucker Ring Composition

Graeme

Vampyroteuthis
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#1
OK, I couldn't find a thread on this, either I'm blind, lazy, or correct:wink: so I thought I'd sart one to ask:

What is the actual composition of the cephalopod sucker rings? Are they just a form of chitin? I remember reading something about it in Engesser and Clarke (1988) Cephalopod Hooks,, Both Recent and Fossil but it didn't go into much more detail save that the belemnites he describes probably had a different chemical composition. I'm currently looking for papers on it, but I'm not sure if I'll find exactly what I'm looking for.

Graeme
 

Tigerkatze_82

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#3
Hi

Maybe try this article:

Smith, A. M. (1996). Cephalopod sucker design and the physical limits to negative pressure. Journal of Experimental Biology, 199: 949-958.

K :sink:
 

Steve O'Shea

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#4
This would make a marvelous thesis topic!!! I am afraid I cannot contribute further.

Just imagine, an analysis of ring & hook morphology & composition across a broad (comprehensive) range of taxa. Kind-of makes me get excited, deep down inside my sooty heart.
 

Graeme

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#5
Tigerkatze_82 said:
Hi

Maybe try this article:

Smith, A. M. (1996). Cephalopod sucker design and the physical limits to negative pressure. Journal of Experimental Biology, 199: 949-958.

K :sink:
Thanks, Tigerkatze. I already have that paper, it's a very good one. I think it just mentioned that the armature was just chitin.

Steve O'Shea said:
This would make a marvelous thesis topic!!! I am afraid I cannot contribute further.

Just imagine, an analysis of ring & hook morphology & composition across a broad (comprehensive) range of taxa. Kind-of makes me get excited, deep down inside my sooty heart.
Yeah, that's kind of what my honours project is about: very interesting, but I can only scratch the surface with a 6 month time-allowance! I would love to go into it in more detail, like do a PHd over 3 years, now THAT would be a better timescale!!! :grin: If I had the time I would investigate the chemical composition of the chitin acroass a variety of species, but since it's coming close to the deadline, I just need it on paper really. The Tree Of Life said it was a mucopolysaccharide I think, but it attributed the chitin to the beaks and shell, but did not mention sucker rings. When it did it said they were of a horny substance:confused:

http://tolweb.org/notes/?note_id=587 it's in here.

Graeme
 

Euprymna

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#6
Hey Graeme,
Interesting hons project, so what is it exactly on? I mean which species are you looking at and what sort of data you have? or will you be having?

eups
 

Graeme

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#7
erm.... well it's kinda a comparative morphology of suckers and armature in cephalopods really. Massive topic, so I can't really go into it in huge detail, but I guess it will act as a sort of starting point. If you want I could send you a copy once it's done. Deadline's something like the somethingth of March:lol: it's ever looming.

Graeme
 

Steve O'Shea

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#8
Graeme said:
Yeah, that's kind of what my honours project is about:
DUDE!!! That is so seriously fantastic!! The rings of Architeuthis are lined with carbonate deposits you know!! As for a PhD ..... well, if you are interested you know who to call (and I'm not talking 'Ghost Busters'). This is sensational stuff!!

Just tell me what you need in the way of equipment!
 

Graeme

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#10
That would be great Whip Squid! If you could, that would make things a lot easier at the moment! I'd be very grateful for any help.

Steve O'Shea said:
DUDE!!! That is so seriously fantastic!! The rings of Architeuthis are lined with carbonate deposits you know!! As for a PhD ..... well, if you are interested you know who to call (and I'm not talking 'Ghost Busters'). This is sensational stuff!!

Just tell me what you need in the way of equipment!
Yeah it's a really good topic, but really hard to find literature on. It would be better as a more practical project but considering I've only had half a year, that's not so easy either!:sad: I doubt I'll get published or anything, but I am hoping to put it up on a website at some point. I think I've had to sort of branch out as well, like incorporate the history, and possible evolutionary theories. Once I get it done, I can send it to you iffen you want, just as a word doc (most likely). I'm already drawing up a plan, and the finished draft has to be in for March 13th.

Actually, if anyone wants to proofread the dissertation before I hand it in then that'd be great, to get opinions from Ceph-experts. The only thing is that it will be far from comprehensive due to time and budget constraints; I'm hoping it will be a taster for the topic, and I aim to write it so that non-scientific types can enjoy it (if I'm allowed to!).
I'd LOVE to do a PHd on it Steve! I'd need to find some place that would take me though! :lol:

Graeme
 

monty

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#11
Graeme said:
I doubt I'll get published or anything, but I am hoping to put it up on a website at some point.
I'm sure plenty of folks around here would love to read it-- why not ask Tony to put it into the science articles archive?
 

main_board

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#13
Graeme said:
The Tree Of Life said it was a mucopolysaccharide I think, but it attributed the chitin to the beaks and shell, but did not mention sucker rings.
Chitin is a polysaccaride. Not sure if that's going to help, but just thought of it as a point of clarification. Good luck!

Cheers!
 

Graeme

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#14
Yeah I know what the basic structure is, but I was under the impression you got lots of different variations.

Graeme
 

Fujisawas Sake

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#15
Steve O'Shea said:
DUDE!!! That is so seriously fantastic!! The rings of Architeuthis are lined with carbonate deposits you know!! As for a PhD ..... well, if you are interested you know who to call (and I'm not talking 'Ghost Busters'). This is sensational stuff!!

Just tell me what you need in the way of equipment!
Dude, did you just say "dude"?

Duuude....

So from what embryonic tissues are suckers derived? I mean, along its evolutionary ontogeny, if the suckers have become a section for external calcareous (or chitinous) development, could this be an evolutionary throwback to the shell?

John
 

Fujisawas Sake

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#16
main_board said:
Chitin is a polysaccaride. Not sure if that's going to help, but just thought of it as a point of clarification. Good luck!

Cheers!
So are they chitinous, or calacareous, or both?
 

Graeme

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#17
Chitin, I think. Only calcareous part in a ceph is the internal shell of cuttles, as far as I'm aware...

Graeme
 

monty

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#18
Graeme said:
Chitin, I think. Only calcareous part in a ceph is the internal shell of cuttles, as far as I'm aware...

Graeme
Er, I think you're forgetting nautilus in that blanket statement. I've read somewhere that the argonaut shell was evolved independently rather than being related to the shell that was lost in the coleoids, but I'm not sure how they know that or what it's made of. Given its shape, it seems likely that it inherits some from the archaic shell formations of the original ceph ancestry.

Particularly given the the Honolulu aquarium is one of the few places to be able to raise nautilus from eggs, it's be really nifty if Martindale et. al. did the same sort of HOX control analysis for nautilus that they did for the Euprymna, and we could see how the HOX controls the layout for the shell and the non-decapod arrangement...

(see http://www.nature.com/nature/journa...l;jsessionid=4FD50828DF36DE4CD9D3F63D7FFA444E and http://pharyngula.org/comments/558_0_1_0_C/ )
 

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