strange looking cuttlefish hatchling

Discussion in 'Physiology and Biology' started by Tigerkatze_82, Aug 17, 2004.

  1. Tigerkatze_82

    Tigerkatze_82 O. vulgaris Registered

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    Hello :cyclops:

    Today I transferred a couple of cuttlefish hatchlings (Sepia officinalis) from one tank to another. They hatched last night. I noticed that one of the little guys looked a bit different than the others. It looked as if the middle arms got two tips??? Or maybe the cuttle just crossed two arms making it look like one arm with 2 tips... I don't know. I had a very close look from different angles, but I am still confused. Have not seen this behaviour before.
    As I brought my cam with me, I quickly took some pictures of the mysterious cuttle while transferring it.
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    All pictures show the same animal (total length was 9 mm).
    Did you ever see something like this?

    TK :cuttle:
     
  2. Jean

    Jean Colossal Squid Supporter

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    Hi Tk.

    I suspect they're crossed. I've seen pics of adults doing this. Could be wrong tho' What do our cuttlefish folks think????


    J
     
  3. Colin

    Colin Colossal Squid Supporter

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    The babies do sometimes cross arms and hold them out but i cant tell from the pics... time will tell :)
     
  4. Tigerkatze_82

    Tigerkatze_82 O. vulgaris Registered

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    Thank you both for your reply :D
    The baby is still alive and I had a look at it again today. I am 99% sure now, his arms-tips are cleaved. I took more pictures (don't know if they are of better quality though) and will post them here later.

    Regards,
    TK :cuttle:
     
  5. joel_ang

    joel_ang Architeuthis Registered

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    Branching arms in cuttles? Has that ever been recorded? They're still really nice babies though, are they all feeding well?
     
  6. Colin

    Colin Colossal Squid Supporter

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    can the cuttle ever hold them down normally?
     
  7. Tigerkatze_82

    Tigerkatze_82 O. vulgaris Registered

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    I suppose so. These babies are reared at the A.W.Institute and people there are experienced in working with Sepia officinalis and keeping it.
    The egg from which the hatchling hatched (excuse my poor english :oops:) was part of an CO2-experiment, but all other hatchlings are normal... So I was very surprised and excited when I saw it yesterday.

    Yes, when it is swimming among the other hatchlings and holds down its arms, it's very difficult to find. Just sometimes it is spreading the arms infront of its head (not above the head as some other babies do). And then it looks soooo different.

    Below are the pics I took today.
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    In the last pic you can kind of see the branching armtips.

    Still excited about this little guy,
    looking forward to further replies

    TK :cuttle:
     
  8. Jean

    Jean Colossal Squid Supporter

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    I've read a paper somewhere (amongst the 1000's) that dealt with branched arms but I can't remember where...... Steve have you run across that???


    J
     
  9. Tigerkatze_82

    Tigerkatze_82 O. vulgaris Registered

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    Would be great to have a look at that paper. Pls try to remember :notworth:

    Tk :cuttle:
     
  10. Steve O'Shea

    Steve O'Shea Colossal Squid Supporter

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    I've only seen weird things like this in octopus (and that's just branching arm tips, or 1 less or 1 more arm [7 or 9 respectively]). I'd be inclined to separate that little puppy out and ensure it is fed (to saturation). It is probably more important that this mutation survives than all of the 'normal' ones!!!

    Mutations are extremely interesting; they'd fall into the lethal and non-lethal variety. Sometimes some absolutely bizarre things can survive, and this definitely falls into the bizarre bracket (along with that bicephalic squid we had earlier ... can't remember the details, but MOST bizarre!!).

    How old is this little thing now? Have you seen it eat? I hope you have. If so, has the food been dead or live? Moreover, can you procure enough of it to keep it going? Imagine it fully grown!! It'd be so cool!

    For interesting mutations in soft-bodied animals, obviously of the non-lethal variety (but fantastically bizarre all the same), you might like to check out Dr Bill Rudman's nudibranch site ('the seaslug forum', link below ... then click on the names of various species)

    http://www.seaslugforum.net/abnormal.htm

    I liken www.seaslugforum.net to www.TONMO.com The two sites are great, informative and interactive. You'd be amazed at some of the 'mutants' or damage-induced morphologies of these seaslugs. In fact, soft-bodied molluscs rule big time!!! Be nice to have an equivalent mutation/abnormal section online here (for octopus and squid), and if you can keep this precious little thing going, and get video of it feeding, then there's grounds for doing so.
     
  11. Tigerkatze_82

    Tigerkatze_82 O. vulgaris Registered

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    Hello

    Unfortuntely the little guy passed away. I didn't see it since the day before yesterday, although I was searching for it for hours yesterday and prepared an individual residence for it after reading Steve's suggestion... but I was too late :(
    I had a close look through our dead cuttlefish hatchlings today and I found it among them. This time I took a clearer picture than before using a binocular.
    The mantle length was 6 mm. The baby hatched between monday evening and tuesday morning.

    [​IMG]

    Best regards,
    TK :cuttle:
     
  12. joel_ang

    joel_ang Architeuthis Registered

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    Really sorry to hear about your loss :cry:

    So it did really have cleaved/ branching arms, all the best with the rest :thumbsup:
     
  13. Nancy

    Nancy Titanites Staff Member Moderator

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    Sorry the little guy died. All of these babies are so difficult to keep alive.

    You did get an excellent photo at the end.

    Nancy
     
  14. Steve O'Shea

    Steve O'Shea Colossal Squid Supporter

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    That is unfortunate. Do make sure that the little guy is preserved.

    How many generations have these cuttles been in captivity?
     
  15. Tigerkatze_82

    Tigerkatze_82 O. vulgaris Registered

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    Hello

    This certain hatchling was from a clutch by a group of wildcaught Sepia officinalis...

    Hehehe, today we found another cleaved-arm-hatchling (it hatched over weekend). This time only one arm is cleaved (I will post a pic/video later tonight). The guy is still carrying its outer yolk sac and is residing in a "single-accomodation" right now... I hope it will drop the outer yolk sac soon and start catching food...

    Best regards,
    TK :cuttle:
     
  16. Steve O'Shea

    Steve O'Shea Colossal Squid Supporter

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    Do they normally hatch with a yolk sac, or should this not be fully absorbed by the time they break free of the egg capsule? Sounds premature.

    Two mutations in one clutch of eggs? That's odd! UV light source on these eggs (or nuclear power plant in the vicinity) by any chance?

    Normal light/dark cycle in the tank? Any spikes in water temperature?

    Have you a source of appropriate-sized live food?
     
  17. Tigerkatze_82

    Tigerkatze_82 O. vulgaris Registered

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    Good Evening from Germany :cyclops:

    Here comes a picture of our second mutant-baby. I took it yesterday. I know it is not very clear, but I didn't want to stress the little guy too much.
    [​IMG]
    The white arrow indicated the cleaved armtip (dorsal view). The baby was still alive today (2nd postembryonic day) - also still carrying its yolk sac. The yolk sac is shrunken though...

    I had a look through v. Boletzky, Lemaire, Fioroni and others (basically all sepia-embryology articles I could get :shock: ) to find out if the presence of an outer yolk sac in S. officinalis means premature hatching. I am still not sure. I have seen many hatchlings with small outer yolk sacs in our groups, so I didn't regard it as uncommon... until now.
    What do you experts say about this? :? Some of our other babies discarded the yolk sac after some time. Are they always fully absorbed (not discarded) normally???

    The eggs are kept under experimental conditions (i. e. constant temp, O2 and CO2). They have normal light-dark conditions (sunlight [not directly exposed to sunlight though]) and are not illuminated with any special light...
    The "clutch" consists of eggs from more than one female. So our two branched-arm-babies may not really come from a single clutch...
    Yes, we have a good living food resource for the babies. They are fed on Mysis (selfcaught or bought) until they grow older...

    TK :cuttle:
     
  18. Steve O'Shea

    Steve O'Shea Colossal Squid Supporter

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    Sounds like you've got things under control then (environment and food).

    If one of our Sepioteuthis squid hatched with a yolk sac of that size it would, without a doubt, die (a dead give away that someone had handled or disturbed the egg mass, suddenly increased the illumination, or otherwise disturbed the eggs). I don't know about cuttles though .... it doesn't seem right to me that this one has hatched without fully absorbing the yolk; that it is still alive, and that the yolk sac is obviously decreasing in size, is good. I wouldn't remove that beast from the tank, or otherwise disturb it (even for a pic) until the yolk has fully gone (if the sac 'breaks off' when the animal is disturbed, you can assure yourself that it will be dead by days end).

    I'd be inclined to remove any protein skimmer for at least (the very least) the first 10 days. I hope I'm not putting you wrong here; perhaps if you have others in tanks then you could trial these without a skimmer. I do believe that the paralarvae absorb DOM through the skin, so removing it removes a vital food source.
     
  19. Andy Lister

    Andy Lister Vampyroteuthis Registered

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    I have a lot of Raja spp. hatch with Yolk sacks still on and have seen a few cuttles with it, but have such a larg number of them that I can't be sure which die off in the first few days.

    I only feed on dead food though and obviously they aren't hunting so i'd say that they would grow slower and therefore be picked off by the larger, more agressive hatchlings in the tank. I'll separate the next one I get and see!

    ~Andy
     
  20. chrono_war01

    chrono_war01 Colossal Squid Supporter

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    O...A typo.... :lol:
     

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