Sighting of Possible Large Cephalopod Near Portugal

Fascinationg!

Tim, could you post a link to the Wikipedia article of yours someone referenced -I tried, but can't seem to find it.

Rob Romero
 
Since I wrote the piece in Wikepedia I have thought long and hard about the experience and will try and add more detail to the article.
In the past I tended to think - no one will believe me so whats the point in telling the story! So I put it to the back of my mind and got on with things. Revisiting my visual memory's of that period of my life and this particular event is bringing back more specific detail of the encounter.
The speeds I have talked about sound rather wild and implausable but are a guess from an instantaneous impression of speed combined with my estimated size of the object. What speed capability have modern technology torpedo's and attack nuclear submarines? How fast are small squid? How would that speed scale? If one assumes my description is true it triggers so many questions. All I can say is that I was in the wrong place at the wrong time or right depending on ones view and without any understanding of what was occuring this was what I saw that night.
 
Has to be the right time and I bet if you could, you'd go back and encounter it again. I'd glady give up my right leg to experience something so unknown - although I have seen some very strange lights in the Devon night sky whilst out and about with my telescope (and no, it wasn't an airplane, satellite, meteor or planet and no I was quite sober, worse luck!).
 
Probably right, however this appeared to be a large object when compared with the yacht. I'm glad that it quickly appeared to lose interest in us. It could have been the wrong place if this had not been the case.
 
One further thought about my attitude and state of mind at the time of the sighting whilst working as professional delivery crew; the boat was very uncomfortable at sea with this terrible, stomach jarring banging and slamming as we tried to push to windward and we were very fed up life on board the boat whilst at sea. I had a contract engineering job (I had just about run out of money whilst delivering small yachts and needed the money I could earn on contract) waiting for me in Cambrdge in the UK and all I was interested in was getting home as quickly and as safely as possible.
The last thing I wanted to see was something that appeared far larger than the yacht approaching underneath the yacht near a potentially vulnerable fin keel and spade rudder. We had enough other potential risks and problems to contend with in our attempt to get the boat across the bay of Biscay and to the UK without encountering one that was not even on the radar. So at the time I did not appreciate nor feel blessed but more cursed with having my eyes open to a possible risk that prior to this I did not know existed. A comforting thought as you try to sleep with less than 9 mm of GRP between you and and the sea. We knew that being run down by shipping, submerged containers, whales protecting young, bad weather, food and water contamination, sudden iillness, MOB and fire/explosion were possible risks but not this.
 
Re squid speed I will carry out a preliminary 'look see' using naval architecture principals. Regarding my revisiting the scale of the creature I encountered (in reply to the obvious scepticism as to the scale I have described), I have recently checked in the local marina the relative size of the bioluminescent squid-like animal that came under the yacht off the Portuguese coast in the summer of 1994. I climbed on board a similar sized yacht and envisaged the limits of the creature I saw. I was able to align these limits with several marina features.
Here are the values - Mantle 100 feet long plus, plus tentacle length and mantle diameter 35 feet. I think this encounter is living proof that the 100 foot plus squid exists in fact I would stake my professional engineering career on this fact.

I cannot surely be the only man on the planet who has seen this large creature. I am hoping that others will now come forward with their encounter descriptions.

Its vertical ascent gave the impression of great speed towards the sea's surface. For small squid I have seen values of 40 km/hour quoted. Scale this up and what do you get? Drag goes up proportionally with cross section area. I guess that the power goes up proportional with mass - muscle size? Could such a large squid be capable of 80 km/hour or 45 to 50 knots for short bursts. My instantaneous guess from what I saw at the time was it's vertical speed was 50 knots. I can imagine that the squid has a very low drag coefficient (very slippery shape) and being jet propelled is capable of high speeds for short bursts.

To clarify my position: my angle is that of a small yacht sailor who has seen something unusual and not as a knowledgable marine biology scientist; although my wife has worked as a research biologist and I have worked in engineering research so I have some idea of how some areas of research work. I have no vested interest in whether anyone believes me or not and can only say to people this is what I have seen and this is what I think it was (having spent the last year looking part time into the possibility of large sea creatures). I hope this is not just dismissed as 'crank dilusions' and that the possibility that such a large creatures exists is more seriously considered.
 
My only concern is that 'large' has to develop from small, so a '100 foot-long' specimen (whether some new species or a very large specimen of some other known species) has to grow from something that's rather small. (Otherwise the parent squid would be several km long.)

I am not aware of any streamlined squid (given you've been talking hydrodynamics) that is known from specimens of immature-to-large-size only (meaning the mature animal is super-sized). Moreover, something of the size you report must (during development) reach a more 'conventional' giant or colossal squid size before attaining sauropod dimension; giant and colossal squid are readily consumed by sperm whales. No 'giant- or colossal-sized beak' of an unknown species of squid is known from the stomach contents of predators such as the sperm whale (or other predators), to support the existence of a beast of the dimensions you propose.

I'd say whatever it was that it wasn't a squid. Sorry.
 
It had a squid shaped profile and propelled itseslf with the tentacles trailing. When it headed for the depths the leading end (taper rounded non tentacled end) dropped down untill it was hanginging vertically down with tentacles uppermost. There appeared a swirling of white glowing phosphorescence around the body - I could no longer see the red diamond mesh bioluminscent outline (this vision reminded me of a rocket on a launch pad but upside down) which I subsequently assume was the mantle rythmicly contracting to generate propulsion pressure for the syphon exiting the phosphorescence and generating the swirling glow. It then dispeared accelerating to what appeared to be a great speed travelling vertically downwards from near the surface of the sea off the port bow of the yacht. At no time during this encounter did it break the surface but had the tentacle end nearer the sea's surface (beyond the yachts bow) than the rounded tapered end (beyond and below the yachts stern). I guess it hung at about 20 degrees to the sea surface whilst under the yacht aligned fore and aft with the yachts centreline. I only wish an expert had been on board as a whitness - I am sure that he or she would have been totally amazed at what we encountered that night 30 or 40 miles off the coast of Portugal (I think we may well have been passing over the Nazare Canion). Knowledge is generally based only on what we have encountered. The unknown often comes as a shock and I was certainly very shocked by what I saw that night. I can only repeat that it had many squid-like features in both shape, form and locomotion - thus my conclusion that it was some sort of super sized squid. If not a squid what was it as it was certainly not a whale although for shear size had the scale of a large whale or was even bigger? What else can I say as a layman in these matters!
 
Just a further thought Steve, if this animal exists it would be a top end predator feeding on smaller animals such as juvenile or small whale (say around 40 foot long). Surely it would be too large for a Sperm Whale to tackle for food thus no large beaks would ever be found inside whale stomach's. When it dies surely its remains would drop to the bottom of the deep ocean. We would thus never find any evidence such an animal exists by conventional squid study methods. The animals would probably feed during the hours of darkness.Thus I propose that the only way we would know of this animals existance is by a chance encounter. I think that we could possibly attract it to the surface by slapping the surface of the water (simulating the slapping of a whales fins on the sea surface) together with presenting a whale-like profile on the surface of the sea thus simulating what I think occurred off the coast of Portugal in 1994. Shock waves will travel vast distances in water so could be detected from a long distance away.
 
I think what Steve was getting at is if it was a new (to science) species of squid, it wouldn't just jump from being small to being super-sized and immune from all other top predators in an instant - it would have "in between" sized growth stages as well where it could be vulnerable to being eaten by the likes of sperm whales (and therefore the beaks would potentially be available for study). I guess maybe it could have some sort of defensive against the normal large squid predators or perhaps it was an exceptional size of "known" squid - speculation of course. You did mention that at first you though it might have been a whale caught in a net, but on closer inspection, it didn't have any whale features?

I am sure the sea hasn't yet given up all of its mysteries and whatever you saw that night, confirms it....

BBC NEWS | Science/Nature | Robot sub explores giant canyon
 
Yes the crew pursuaded me that it was a whale which helped my peace of mind at the time - I am now convinced that it was not a whale. Maybe some known species of squid get plentifull food and this turbo-charges their growth and changes them rapidly to the 'super-sized' squid which may also develope different chacteristics to the smaller squid on the way. Maybe this type of squid protects it young? This creature made a decision not to attack and thus possibly displayed reasoned thought. Are squid intelligent? I understand your difficulty but I also find it difficult to understand how I could have seen such a thing.
 
For reference, Tim's original description is here: Sighting of Possible Large Cephalopod Near Portugal with further details in following posts.

In addition to the sensible biological objections Steve raises above, it seems to me that the observations are not consistent with any other observation of large cephalopods. The description of the size, behavior, pattern of luminescence, and geographic location are quite different from any sighting of any large cephalopod ever reported. I understand that you very much want to convince people that what you saw was a tremendous squid, but if that were the case, you would likely find things became more consistent with your memories as you discuss this in a forum with experts, while, in fact, you are finding yourself arguing hypothetical ways that this hypothetical giant squid might be different than every other cephalopod ever studied. If it's a squid that's completely unlike every other squid in every way except gross shape and living in the water, why assume it's a squid at all?

As the only eyewitness, if you insist it was a squid for your own personal belief reasons, in the absence of any other evidence, no one can prove anything one way or another, but what you have described is not consistent with any cephalopod supported by any other evidence than your account, so if you're hoping that repeating the story is going to eventually lead to someone giving you an answer you like better, they'd be bucking the trend.

You requested that you not be considered a crackpot, but frankly, coming up with rationalizations to support the conclusion you want to believe in the face of all evidence to the contrary is typical crackpot behavior. Steve is a world-class expert in giant squids (and a number of other cephalopod taxa, and toothed whales, and the ecology of other marine organisms)... I wouldn't say that his opinions are beyond questioning, but suggesting "maybe everything Steve said is completely wrong" should not be done lightly. If your theory about what you saw requires that, I think you need to give some very serious thought to re-evaluating it.

In any case, it was certainly not Mesonychoteuthis hamiltonii based on size, location, and description, so we should probably steer this thread back to discussion of the upcoming thaw of the large specimen of that species... (admittedly, I strayed pretty far off-topic in debating extrapolation of squid size based on beak size, too :oops:)

I'm going to copy the posts from the "squid sucker marks on whales" and this thread related to Tim's eyewitness account into a new thread for discussion there.
 
I totally understand your response. You are quite correct in making the point that I am not a world leading specialist in the study of squid. I am however, a senior engineer (Acting Head of Structures for a an aircraft company and a UK Civil Aviaition Designated Structural Signatory and a qualified delivery skipper) and as such hope that the responsible position I hold within this company and have held whilst working at others will be taken into account when my account and conclusion are judged. I have attempted, in good faith to describe what I have seen accurately and in as much detail as I could remember. From what little I know about marine life, this was my conclusion i.e the 'nearest fit'. I knew that this would be controversal and this is probably why I have not attempted to report this at any time over the past 14 years. I appologise if I have caused any offence but I stand by my description. I am not suggesting Steve is completely wrong and I am right but I wanted to emphasise how strongly I thought it resembled certain squid characteristics. I would not be so arrogant as to say that the worlds leading experts are wrong and I as a complete laymen am correct, but what was it?
I do hope that people will take an even handed interest in my description of this encounter and not just dismiss it out of hand and that is why I have been perhaps a little to forcefull with my opinions. If there are inconsitency's and some ill considered statements in my responses it is partly because I am rushing this out in between current engineering work and I again apologise.
 
Look, I'm sorry I rubbed you the wrong way, but I decided that you seem like an intelligent enough guy that I shouldn't just dismiss you out of hand, ignore you and hope you go away, or make fun of you. However, when I decide to give someone that level of respect, that goes along with the idea that I'm not going to pull punches in having an intelligent debate.

This site has an unusual mix of professional scientists, educated lay-people, and complete novices, but I've been continually impressed at how we're able to have intelligent and reasonable discussions that address all these levels. I am immensely pleased that we have world-class experts who are willing to participate, and I think it's important to take them seriously.

The collected wisdom on TONMO about the biology of cephalopods, giant and otherwise, is something I'm proud to be part of. I am not a professional squid expert, and I may shoot from the hip occasionally, but I have found no shortage of professionals willing to correct me when I'm wrong. The fact that the people who have spoken up don't see a way to reconcile the report of your experience with your theory that it was a giant squid is telling, but more telling is that none of the experts who have remained silent have jumped in to defend your theory.

I haven't seen anyone dispute your description, and I think that's entirely reasonable since, as a single eyewitness, there is no way to get any more information than what you report. You assert "From what little I know about marine life, this was my conclusion i.e the 'nearest fit'." Perhaps, then, you should take the attitude of a student, and learn more about the characteristics of giant squids, and consider objectively whether, as you learn more, the explanation of "giant squid" as what you saw becomes more or less plausible. It seems that there is a strong correlation that the more expertise anyone has about squids, the more they react with skepticism that your description matches a squid. It also seems that you have less interest in discussing why that is the prevailing view, and more interest in repeating that you're sure that you're right.

If you are interested in learning more about squids in order to evaluate what you've seen, or because you're genuinely interested in general, many people in our community would be happy to help you. And I, and I'm sure I speak for others, would appreciate your input in discussing the implications of hydrodynamics on squid propulsion.

To be entirely blunt, though, you give me the impression that you only want this community to accept your assertion that you must be right, not to learn anything. I actually feel bad about having this impression, and I would love to be proven wrong, because I like to see the best in people, and I am genuinely curious about what you saw from the sailboat. If you want to discuss it, though, I think you need to face up to the fact that no one here on TONMO has said they even think it's possible, let alone likely, that a squid of any sort exists that fits the details of your description.

If nothing else, I suggest that you re-read your apology/explanation, and observe that at no point do you acknowledge the possibility that what you saw could be anything other than a squid, except by putting the onus on us to say "but what was it?" Why should you expect us to have any meaningful opinion on what it may have been unless it was a cephalopod?

I want to clarify that I have no interest in censorship, dismissal, or bullying of Tim or anyone else. I have not removed any posts, I have not banned any users, and I have tried to encourage open discussion, and organized the discussion of Tim's encounter into its own thread, not the dustbin. If anyone has suggestions on a more reasonable way to give Tim's theory about his encounter due consideration, I'm quite open to them. I have to say that I'm feeling more :banghead: than :sink: at present, though.
 

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