Sea Shepherd: Heroes or Villains?

erich orser;128125 said:
Farmers should just grow organically again, and kick jackhole corporations like Cargill to the curb. It would seriously cut down on their environmental damage, and the food ends up tasting a helluva lot better anyway. And that's what is ultimately important. Don't you want your tomato, or corn, or prime rib to taste like heaven? I mean, you only live once. It should be a tasty life.

I agree with you on this with the food taste part, but I don't think it would necessarily be all good, fact is, we're running out of farm land, and the fertilizers, hormones, and other crappy stuff make it possible to grow waaay more food in a waaay smaller area. All organic= less forest IMO. Until we have skyscraper farms, that is :smile:.
 
I am not an expert, but I know quite a few educated people who think that industrial farming is actually less efficient than well-run organic farming. And there seem to be a lot of soil scientist types who are concerned that the impact of modern agribusiness type farming is ruining our soil assets in the long term in order to get better yields in the short term.

I don't believe the two are mutually exclusive, either. I suspect you can do large-scale, efficient industrial farming in a sustainable and environmentally friendly way. Unfortunately, it appears that the farm lobby is more interested in preserving the status quo, so there's a stupid attitude that you're either in the "traditional farming" or "organic farming" camp, instead of the "do what works best" camp.

Hallucigenia loaned me a book called Dirt by David Montgomery, and while I haven't gotten to the "modern" part, it's interesting to read about how ancient civilizations managed to screw up their farmland through various agricultural practices. Looking at the dust bowl in the 1930s is an interesting case to consider as well... this stuff is complicated.
 
All this talk about sustainable management raises an interesting question and maybe a good poll topic.

I am totally opposed to the way whales are being hunted because it is being carried out under the "loophole" of "scientific purposes" and because its clear that whaling is unsustainable. However if whale numbers built to a level that there can be sustainable capture then how will we justify banning hunting?

I have been lucky enough to swim with dolphin and orca and they are such impressive animals that I would think I will always be opposed to whaling but if it is sustainable and not cruel then what?
 
Then you are still left with the ethical arguments I mentioned in my previous post, not that I'm saying cows are evil...
 
Wow, this discussion has raised all sorts of interesting ethical issues! BTM's post (and Ob's reply about "evil cows" :mrgreen:) expressed it well.

I myself have very mixed feelings about these issues. On the one hand, I do happen to eat animal flesh, except for the kind subjected to senseless cruelty while alive (foie gras, milk-fed veal, etc.). On the other hand, I also believe that the world would be a better place if everyone followed a vegetarian diet. Perhaps that makes me a hypocrite, and I cannot defend myself against that accusation except to say that my personal circumstances unfortunately make total vegetarianism impractical and cumbersome for me.

The sustainability factor vs. the anti-killing factor further complicates the issue. If, as BTM postulated, whale populations once again become abundant.... and if, as he further postulated, whaling techniques become less cruel (i.e., a quick and painless kill).... then any arguments against whaling will lose credibility unless they come from the lips of a strict vegetarian.

Also, does the fact that an animal is "magnificent" or "beautiful" (at least in the eyes of homo sapiens) make slaughtering it for food any more heinous than slaughtering an animal labeled "ordinary" or "ugly" by our own standards? Pigs, for example, are not considered "magnificent" or "beautiful" by most people.... nursery rhymes and A.A. Milne notwithstanding. Yet research has indicated that pigs are at least as intelligent as dogs, if not more so. Most Westerners recoil at the thought of eating dogs, and are appalled at Asian cultures which do not have similar qualms, but these same Westerners will not think twice about chowing down on pork or bacon or ham.

We tend to demonize some animal species and canonize others.... and we consider eating members of the latter category a reprehensible act. But aren't we anthropomorphizing just a wee bit here? Everyone (myself included) gets all blissed-out over bottlenosed dolphins; but awhile ago I saw a nature show about "the dark side of dolphins", and it revealed that they aren't exactly the angelic critters we imagine them to be. While bottlenoses seem to have a fondness for humans, they also have a predilection for unprovoked group attacks on other dolphin species.... not for food, but for pleasure. One particularly disturbing segment of this program showed a pod of male bottlenoses ganging up on a member of a smaller species, tormenting it savagely and ramming the hapless creature within an inch of its life; and one of the bottlenoses clearly had a huge erection while engaging in this random violence.

If the general public were more aware of such tendencies in our favorite cetaceans, would that give a green light to putting Flipper on the menu? And assuming bottlenose dolphin populations are abundant, what makes eating a pig -- an animal nearly as intelligent as a dolphin, and certainly equally capable of feeling pain and fear -- more acceptable than eating a bottlenose dolphin?

I don't have any easy answers to the above questions, and I am as guilty as any homo sapiens of selectively admiring and condemning various animal species based solely on aesthetics and anthropomorphization. But I do think that the issue is much more complicated and much less black-and-white than activists on both sides would have us believe.

Carry on,
Tani


baldtankman;128160 said:
I have been lucky enough to swim with dolphin and orca and they are such impressive animals that I would think I will always be opposed to whaling but if it is sustainable and not cruel then what?
 

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