question

Discussion in 'Behavior and Intelligence' started by baraqdair, Oct 29, 2010.

  1. baraqdair

    baraqdair Larval Mass Registered

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    Hi all

    Dont be surprised if my englich is strange im frech.

    i have sse a reportage on octopus and was really impressed.
    i come on this scene when a subject by mimetism learn from an other subject of same species.
    hi have 3 question in extent of that.

    1 can the octopus is able to learn from another thing doing the task.

    2 Did an octopus is able to lie to obtain something.

    3 if they have the choice can be an octopus act with lazyness.


    So tks all il take any answer or sugestion to make my idea.

    Have a good days all.

    Baraqdair
     
  2. DWhatley

    DWhatley Cthulhu Staff Member Moderator

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    I only speak English but hopefully OB will clarify if I do not understand the question correctly.

    1. There is one study that showed (French I think) octopuses may be able to learn by observering other octopuses. The study results have not been duplicated but there are indications from other studies that the results may be partially valid. TONMO members have not reported trying this form of teaching.

    2. I assume you mean something like pretend it has not eaten to get more food or hide food to get more. I have not see this type of behavior in the ones I have kept. My group have only taken enough food to satisfy their hunger and then refuse more. A few of the larger animals have taken more than one peice of food before eating while keeping what has already been given under their webbing but I don't think this qualifies as deception. An example of the behavior to look for would be helpful.

    3. There are many cases shown that an octopus will chose to expend the minimum amount of energy to acquire food. They have been known to choose the easiest to catch food both in the wild and in the aquarium (one reason stick feeding is usually quickly accepted I think). Other than feeding though, I don't know of other examples.
     
  3. CaptFish

    CaptFish Colossal Squid Staff Member Moderator

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    Dwhatley réponse est grand, mais il peut être difficile à comprendre si vous n'avez pas lire l'anglais alors ....
    ici il est en français

    1. Il ya une étude qui a montré (en français je crois) pieuvres peuvent être capables d'apprendre par observering autres poulpes. Les résultats de l'étude n'ont pas été en double mais il ya des indications provenant d'autres études que les résultats peuvent être partiellement valable. TONMO membres n'ont pas signalé d'essayer cette forme d'enseignement.

    2. Je suppose que vous voulez dire quelque chose comme prétendre qu'il n'a pas mangé pour obtenir plus de nourriture ou de cacher la nourriture pour obtenir plus. Je n'ai pas vu ce type de comportement dans celles que j'ai gardé. Mon groupe ont seulement pris assez de nourriture pour satisfaire leur faim et refuser ensuite de plus. Quelques-uns des plus grands animaux ont pris plus d'un morceau de nourriture avant de manger tout en gardant ce qui a déjà été donné en vertu de leur sangle mais je ne pense pas que cela se qualifie comme une tromperie. Un exemple de la conduite à comparer serait utile.

    3. Il ya de nombreux cas, montré que la pieuvre sera choisi de dépenser le montant minimum d'énergie pour acquérir de la nourriture. Ils ont été connus pour choisir les plus faciles à attraper de la nourriture à la fois dans la nature et dans l'aquarium (où l'un bâton de la raison est en général rapidement acceptée, je crois). D'autres que l'alimentation, toutefois, je ne sais pas d'autres exemples.

    :heee:
     
  4. DWhatley

    DWhatley Cthulhu Staff Member Moderator

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    merci CaptFish para Je ne sais pas si je comprends correctement aux questions (got out half of that without looking it up. Considering my last exposure was over 30 years ago, I am pleased :grin:)
     
  5. baraqdair

    baraqdair Larval Mass Registered

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    tks i precise my question

    So on 1 ya its a french emission you see the subject go really fast to look the other subject open box for food. few secound after they go and open the box without exploration and trial.. This octopus have look one of this congenere but if you schow it ...with your hands how to open the box did the octopus is able to do the act of open the box without the exploration and trial.

    For the 2 i think something like that..the subject have to follow canalisation and get out on .. a green circle...to obtain food he have to go on canalisation and get on green circle.. This for few mounts..
    One morning you close the canalisation in middle of the road..so the octopus go in and have to get out by the start he cannot complete the task..
    So if they wanna lie or try to manipulate the experimentation he have to go on the greencircle without taking the canalisation. Thats what i mean by lie did the octopus try to see if they can have the result if they do a partial task and just go on the green circle .


    for the 3 take the same experimentation but dont close the canalisation all is regular i explain lazinees and he have part of lie and understanding the presence of the human after a few mount you stop to observe this canalisation walk to obtrain food you just just let camera or sensor in the canalisation and on green circle .Each time you know its on the green circle you empress to give it food. So my interrogation is how much morning he gonna take to go in the green circle without taking the canalisation. This is interesting cuz its at the frontier of conditionnement and comprehension of the task. If the change is fast thats schow he have a true comprehension you not here he is on green circle you come and give food. IF he stick on the same pattern run on canalisation its much like a lab rat,

    Btw i want to thank you for the time you have take to read me. The example i have give is one of a man ( me)who dont have octopus at houseso thats maybe be incorrect..But thats the global idea. I have ask my self after the reportage this scene when the wild poulp go really fast to observe the lab poulp open the box i have said to my self he cannot know what the lab poulp gonna do.So he schow interest and real curiosity to a future happening or and this seems really big for me he have hope to learn about the box,

    Have a good days all

    Baraqdair
     
  6. DWhatley

    DWhatley Cthulhu Staff Member Moderator

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    Almost all descriptions of octopuses include the word "curious". We do not know if they are curious only to locate new food sources or if there is more intelligent interest. There is much debate on the degree of intelligence. Part of the problem is that scientists argue about the definition of the definition of the word "intelligence" :grin:, another is that each animal is different and a third that each species of octopus is different.

    There are several experiments that suggest that they learn symbols and are not maze conditioned. There is a video on YouTube that shows this very well. It starts about cuttlefish but continues with octopuses at about 3:30. The part about identifying shapes starts at about 4:40. It is in English but I think the point is clear from the action.
     

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