POST YOUR COLOSSAL SQUID QUESTIONS HERE

[Jean]

too true, The only worry I have with squid remains to size regression with too few data points (be n=1, 2, 10 [sorry Steve]) is that squid growth is so variable between species and even within species that it's very hard to get a "feel" for the growth, with a small sample size and with large "clumps" missing (eg too few adults, too few young un's ). With my 1100 I'm a bit skewed to the younger end and would like more adults but it's not horrifically bad!

j

 

[Steve O'Shea]

The one question I have re this larger colossal we'll be examining is what is the LRL. If 45mm or less than I'll quite happily say that Mesonychoteuthis attains weights of 20 tons and lengths of 100 metres .....

Numbers shnumbers .... as long as a little common sense prevails. I certainly don't advocate wholesale slaughter of these animals in Antarctic waters just to build up a regression equation (the danger is a fishery develops for it, in which case this will be the case).

 

[monty]

(the danger is a fishery develops for it, in which case this will be the case).

Hey, that's a question: are they ammoniacal, and hence really awful-tasting calamari rings the size of tractor tires? That would discourage a fishery, I'd think. Mmmm. Windex. (Is Windex a brand of ammonia-based window-cleaner in NZ, or just the U.S.)

Say, are any of the small specimens appropriately sized to stick in an MRI machine?

 

[Jean]

Windex. (Is Windex a brand of ammonia-based window-cleaner in NZ, or just the U.S.)

Yes although it's not common.

J

 

[Jean]

The one question I have re this larger colossal we'll be examining is what is the LRL. If 45mm or less than I'll quite happily say that Mesonychoteuthis attains weights of 20 tons and lengths of 100 metres .....

Numbers shnumbers .... as long as a little common sense prevails. I certainly don't advocate wholesale slaughter of these animals in Antarctic waters just to build up a regression equation (the danger is a fishery develops for it, in which case this will be the case).

You use LRL more? I've been inclining to URL- mind you that's because in most of the gut contents I've looked at the lower beak has been absolutely minced or is missing, so I concentrated on uppers.

What was the LRL on the smaller one?

I'm certainly not advocating wholesale slaughter no way, but I guess every additional set of measurements you can get may increase the confidence of your regression (BTW I had r squared values of 0.8 or so, so I'm pretty happy with my regression!!!)

J

 

[myopsida]

Daily events:
Te Papa’s Blog

 

[Tim Stress Eng]

What speed jet propelled squid?

What speeds can a squid achieve when propelling itself via the 'syphon'? Are larger squids faster than smaller squids?Can any values be related to the cross sectional area (Size) of the squid concerned i.e. what is the body maximum cross sectional area (a diameter will do)? What is the drag coefficient of a squid in jet propelled mode? I think that it could be quite low as the length to diameter ratio is high (Tentacles trailing) say 1 to 5? I am quessing below 0.01!

 

[Jean]

Maybe test in a flume? Otago Phys Ed school has a large flume, which one of the other TF's was using with his class to test drag etc in model fish!

I wonder if a model could be made that has the dynamics of a living, muscular, deformable squid. (thanks Monty....I like this description ) ...some form of silicon maybe? (model makers help!). The fish models were made of plasticine.

We have some small saltwater flumes at the Portobello Marine Lab and I've always wanted to get some baby squid into them (although they are rectangular....I wonder if that shape is still fatal if there is water flowing through it?).

We also do a sinking rate experiment with model plankton (made from polymer clay) in a tall tank, which we fill with water or other fluids at varying viscosities. In this we're trying to get the students think about surface area:volume and surface of resistance. Again the "plankton" did not really approximate the real thing in terms of flexibility and so on.

It would be nice if we could test the squid with something that approximates a living animal!

J

 

[monty]

It would certainly be fun to try. It's hard to say what would be the important characteristics to measure, though... the mantle is actively changing size, and presumably the fins and siphon change muscle tension and shape during jetting... maybe silicon with wire or fishing line in it that can have its tension adjusted?

I think Gilly's lab has some sort of tank like that for their metabolism measurements, at least judging from the pictures, but they use live squids...

 

[Jean]

A squidroid

 

[Tim Stress Eng]

Re squid speed I will carry out a preliminary 'look see' using naval architecture principals. Regarding my revisiting the scale of the creature I encountered (in reply to the obvious scepticism as to the scale I have described), I have recently checked in the local marina the relative size of the bioluminescent squid-like animal that came under the yacht off the Portuguese coast in the summer of 1994. I climbed on board a similar sized yacht and envisaged the limits of the creature I saw. I was able to align these limits with several marina features.
Here are the values - Mantle 100 feet long plus, plus tentacle length and mantle diameter 35 feet. I think this encounter is living proof that the 100 foot plus squid exists in fact I would stake my professional engineering career on this fact.

I cannot surely be the only man on the planet who has seen this large creature. I am hoping that others will now come forward with their encounter descriptions.

Its vertical ascent gave the impression of great speed towards the sea's surface. For small squid I have seen values of 40 km/hour quoted. Scale this up and what do you get? Drag goes up proportionally with cross section area. I guess that the power goes up proportional with mass - muscle size? Could such a large squid be capable of 80 km/hour or 45 to 50 knots for short bursts. My instantaneous guess from what I saw at the time was it's vertical speed was 50 knots. I can imagine that the squid has a very low drag coefficient (very slippery shape) and being jet propelled is capable of high speeds for short bursts.

To clarify my position: my angle is that of a small yacht sailor who has seen something unusual and not as a knowledgable marine biology scientist; although my wife has worked as a research biologist and I have worked in engineering research so I have some idea of how some areas of research work. I have no vested interest in whether anyone believes me or not and can only say to people this is what I have seen and this is what I think it was (having spent the last year looking part time into the possibility of large sea creatures). I hope this is not just dismissed as 'crank dilusions' and that the possibility that such a large creatures exists is more seriously considered.

 

[Steve O'Shea]

My only concern is that 'large' has to develop from small, so a '100 foot-long' specimen (whether some new species or a very large specimen of some other known species) has to grow from something that's rather small. (Otherwise the parent squid would be several km long.)

I am not aware of any streamlined squid (given you've been talking hydrodynamics) that is known from specimens of immature-to-large-size only (meaning the mature animal is super-sized). Moreover, something of the size you report must (during development) reach a more 'conventional' giant or colossal squid size before attaining sauropod dimension; giant and colossal squid are readily consumed by sperm whales. No 'giant- or colossal-sized beak' of an unknown species of squid is known from the stomach contents of predators such as the sperm whale (or other predators), to support the existence of a beast of the dimensions you propose.

I'd say whatever it was that it wasn't a squid. Sorry.

 

[Tim Stress Eng]

It had a squid shaped profile and propelled itseslf with the tentacles trailing. When it headed for the depths the leading end (taper rounded non tentacled end) dropped down untill it was hanginging vertically down with tentacles uppermost. There appeared a swirling of white glowing phosphorescence around the body - I could no longer see the red diamond mesh bioluminscent outline (this vision reminded me of a rocket on a launch pad but upside down) which I subsequently assume was the mantle rythmicly contracting to generate propulsion pressure for the syphon exiting the phosphorescence and generating the swirling glow. It then dispeared accelerating to what appeared to be a great speed travelling vertically downwards from near the surface of the sea off the port bow of the yacht. At no time during this encounter did it break the surface but had the tentacle end nearer the sea's surface (beyond the yachts bow) than the rounded tapered end (beyond and below the yachts stern). I guess it hung at about 20 degrees to the sea surface whilst under the yacht aligned fore and aft with the yachts centreline. I only wish an expert had been on board as a whitness - I am sure that he or she would have been totally amazed at what we encountered that night 30 or 40 miles off the coast of Portugal (I think we may well have been passing over the Nazare Canion). Knowledge is generally based only on what we have encountered. The unknown often comes as a shock and I was certainly very shocked by what I saw that night. I can only repeat that it had many squid-like features in both shape, form and locomotion - thus my conclusion that it was some sort of super sized squid. If not a squid what was it as it was certainly not a whale although for shear size had the scale of a large whale or was even bigger? What else can I say as a layman in these matters!

 

[Tim Stress Eng]

Just a further thought Steve, if this animal exists it would be a top end predator feeding on smaller animals such as juvenile or small whale (say around 40 foot long). Surely it would be too large for a Sperm Whale to tackle for food thus no large beaks would ever be found inside whale stomach's. When it dies surely its remains would drop to the bottom of the deep ocean. We would thus never find any evidence such an animal exists by conventional squid study methods. The animals would probably feed during the hours of darkness.Thus I propose that the only way we would know of this animals existance is by a chance encounter. I think that we could possibly attract it to the surface by slapping the surface of the water (simulating the slapping of a whales fins on the sea surface) together with presenting a whale-like profile on the surface of the sea thus simulating what I think occurred off the coast of Portugal in 1994. Shock waves will travel vast distances in water so could be detected from a long distance away.

 

[daviddickinson]

I think what Steve was getting at is if it was a new (to science) species of squid, it wouldn't just jump from being small to being super-sized and immune from all other top predators in an instant - it would have "in between" sized growth stages as well where it could be vulnerable to being eaten by the likes of sperm whales (and therefore the beaks would potentially be available for study). I guess maybe it could have some sort of defensive against the normal large squid predators or perhaps it was an exceptional size of "known" squid - speculation of course. You did mention that at first you though it might have been a whale caught in a net, but on closer inspection, it didn't have any whale features?

I am sure the sea hasn't yet given up all of its mysteries and whatever you saw that night, confirms it....

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