Penelope - O.Vulgaris

Yeah I have to agree, after looking at the pictures from Mote. Their Vulgaris definitely had longer arms than Penny. Sooo, what is she? What other Octos live down here?
 
Some of the fun about octopuses is that we think many of them are not yet described, even on our East coast. "Vulgaris" has been over used for years and like "filosis" octos have been reclassified as vulgaris. The same is true of squid and with more modern techniques we may find lots of different species. The squid that Kat is reclassifiying has already had two genus assigned and she is creating a third.

Be sure to go through biddle's thread and look closely at the photos. I suspect they may be the same. Unfortunately, that does not help much with the ID. Biddle got quite large but your tank should be OK if Penny gets no larger. I have wondered about some of the "vulgaris" you were looking at originally as well. Some literature will say the vulgaris doe not show the strong cirri like Penny and Biddle but it is the arm length that really suggests it is not the same species as the ones at Mote. There is always the possibility of having lost arms but the taper of all the arms makes me think otherwise. However, vulgaris is shown as a "complex" rather than as an individual species and Norman notes:

There are a number of similar octopuses around the world being treated under this species name and the exact relationships between these animals is yet to be determined. They exist in the tropical waters of the Caribbean Sea, the subtropical to temperate waters of Japan and the temperate waters of Sough Africa. The isolation of some of theses populations suggest that they are llikely to be separate species

He also mentions that some are mostly nocturnal while others mostly diurnal, there are 10 recognized species and some, like the cyanea, have eyespots. In other words, if you can't idendify it, it is called a vulgaris :roll:
 
CaptFish, did you ever tell Tom that Penney is not O. briareus? When you next get something from him, be sure to let him know that if he sees a difference in one of the animals that come in the forum would be a great place to post it or at least let one of us know. The best he might look for is the ability to show "seaweed" all over its skin (the basic description I got from Lynn when describing Octane). Tell him he could post it in the availability thread (he has joined TONMO) and could get a few extra dollars and a fast sale if he will. ... just sayin'
 
I have been doing a little reading and came across this:
She further stated that O. hummelincki is the only ocellated species of octopod from the Atlantic Ocean but that if the ocelli were absent or obscured it could be confused with certain forms of the "Octopus rugosus" complex.
From IngentaConnect Full PDF available, published 1966.

If I remember correctly, Octopus rugosus was later determined to be a form of vulgaris (unfortunately so was filosus - a description debocle, not a true invalidation of the species and resulted in the hummelincki name over the filosus name - also a point of naming contention).

Morphological and genetic description of Octopus insularis, a new cryptic species in the Octopus vulgaris complex (Cephalopoda: Octopodidae) from the tropical southwestern Atlantic
could also prove very interesting but it costs $25 for a one day look at the article. Doing a little more research no insularis (and you begin to wonder if the older rugsus is the same animal), it might be worth some time checking it out. I did find an old article in The Cephalopod Page with a couple of photos of insularis but they are only sighted further south than where Penny was acquired (not that octos pay a lot of attention to human defined boundries)
 
CaptFish,
Do you happen to have a brave female friend that comes by (or would be willing to to do a set of experiments) often? I don't think age matters for the task I present. I have noticed that some of my more interactive species seem to be able to tell male from female and have a preference (the preference may be something totally unrelated to sex). If Penny continues to be pissy toward you, the object would be to see if she would have a different attitude with a female. Neal used to claim that Octane did not "like" him but he would come to me quickly to be petted and came immediately to my mother (we look a lot alike) when she put her hand in the tank (I was about to tell her she would need to get comfortable as it might take a few minutes but did not get that out of my mouth before he was rubbing on her hand) and it only took a little coaxing from my granddaughter. It would take a lot of experimenting to see if there are chemical clues to our sexes but it might be fun to try a simple, inconculsive experiement.
 
dwhatley;155887 said:
CaptFish, did you ever tell Tom that Penney is not O. briareus? When you next get something from him, be sure to let him know that if he sees a difference in one of the animals that come in the forum would be a great place to post it or at least let one of us know. The best he might look for is the ability to show "seaweed" all over its skin (the basic description I got from Lynn when describing Octane). Tell him he could post it in the availability thread (he has joined TONMO) and could get a few extra dollars and a fast sale if he will. ... just sayin'

I did tell him, but he really did not seem to care. Something to think about he does not keep his animals in tanks but in Plastic bins which I think makes it hard to identify. When Penny first showed up she very much looked like a Briareus.
 
dwhatley;155898 said:
I have been doing a little reading and came across this:

From IngentaConnect Full PDF available, published 1966.

If I remember correctly, Octopus rugosus was later determined to be a form of vulgaris (unfortunately so was filosus - a description debocle, not a true invalidation of the species and resulted in the hummelincki name over the filosus name - also a point of naming contention).

Morphological and genetic description of Octopus insularis, a new cryptic species in the Octopus vulgaris complex (Cephalopoda: Octopodidae) from the tropical southwestern Atlantic
could also prove very interesting but it costs $25 for a one day look at the article. Doing a little more research no insularis (and you begin to wonder if the older rugsus is the same animal), it might be worth some time checking it out. I did find an old article in The Cephalopod Page with a couple of photos of insularis but they are only sighted further south than where Penny was acquired (not that octos pay a lot of attention to human defined boundries)

Very interesting! Those pictures look just like Penelope! I think you may be on to something I will have to investigate this species some more. Thanks!
 
dwhatley;155907 said:
CaptFish,
Do you happen to have a brave female friend that comes by (or would be willing to to do a set of experiments) often? I don't think age matters for the task I present. I have noticed that some of my more interactive species seem to be able to tell male from female and have a preference (the preference may be something totally unrelated to sex). If Penny continues to be pissy toward you, the object would be to see if she would have a different attitude with a female. Neal used to claim that Octane did not "like" him but he would come to me quickly to be petted and came immediately to my mother (we look a lot alike) when she put her hand in the tank (I was about to tell her she would need to get comfortable as it might take a few minutes but did not get that out of my mouth before he was rubbing on her hand) and it only took a little coaxing from my granddaughter. It would take a lot of experimenting to see if there are chemical clues to our sexes but it might be fun to try a simple, inconculsive experiement.

Two words...EVIL OCTOPUS! Penelope has become very frustrating for me. She absolutely hates ALL Humans. I cant clean the glass because i lose my Magfloat when I do and I cant clean it with my hand because I get attacked or she tries to escape. She has put all my octo-proofing to the test and seems determind to get out. I have to be extremely careful to lock the lids. I left it unlocked one day but with a five pound weight on top of the lid. I came home to find the lid had been slid open two inches and she was sitting half out of the water. I walked up to her and was Squirted with water then she inked all the way back to her den. Actually she inks a lot, especially if someone she does not know walks into the room. She will see them them n she will ink and swim a few laps around the tank a shoots into her den. The other annoying thing about penny is her obsession with my sunken ship. She is determined to get that ship into her den. In trying to do so she and messed up all the rocks around her den and almost broke my heater dropping a huge rock on it.

I love her to death and wouldn't trade her for the world but man this little bugger is testing my patience.

I still feed her both live shrimp. and frozen on a stick. She eats one frozen and two livies a day.
 
Looks like we are both having trouble identifying our octopuses :hmm: I have Diablo in a 50 gallon tank so I am in a pickle so to speak. I am upgrading to a 120, my brother purchased this tank but never set it up. I plan to begin this weekend. I have to quickly decide where I will put it. I cannot find any information on tank size for an O. vulgaris. Not even sure that is what Diablo is. One thing I know for certain, I will not give her up. From what I read, vulgaris can get to 70 cm. Now the $100,000.00 question, will a 120 be large enough? It will certainly be better than a 50.
 
She sounds like Diablo's evil twin :sagrin: Diablo loves my attention, we interact nightly. I have been petting her every night. So far there have been no escape attempts. (knock on wood) One squirting incident but she was trying to pull the feeding bottle into the tank and had me too, she wasn't letting go of her meal. Diablo grabs everything that enters the tank, holds it a while then lets it go. Tank cleaning can be frustrating because of the stealing but I do not fear her. I feel for you, must be difficult to deal with the aggression. :cephdevil:
 
Looks like we are both having trouble identifying our octopuses I have Diablo in a 50 gallon tank so I am in a pickle so to speak. I am upgrading to a 120, my brother purchased this tank but never set it up. I plan to begin this weekend. I have to quickly decide where I will put it. I cannot find any information on tank size for an O. vulgaris. Not even sure that is what Diablo is. One thing I know for certain, I will not give her up. From what I read, vulgaris can get to 70 cm. Now the $100,000.00 question, will a 120 be large enough? It will certainly be better than a 50.

Its hard to say but Legs was huge 48"(121cm) spread and a mantle that was ~9"(22cm) and she seemed content in her tank which also was a 120 gallon tank so I think you should be fine. But I'm really not sure Vulgaris is such a general complex so I think it is hard to say what size tank is acceptable for them.
 
I was just reading about the feeding habits of O.Insularis and it sounded exactly like Penelope.
The intense search for food during short hunting trips, and the intense use of cryptic body patterns during foraging trips, suggest that this species is a `time-minimizing` forager instead of a 'rate-maximizing’ one (Leite et al, 2009).
 
Love this fiesty little girl. I so hope she adjusts to captivity.

If you REALLY want her to stop messing with the ship, you can try giving her a substitute that would block her den entrance. An appropriate sized piece of LR, shell or some other artificial substitute might work. You can try just adding somthing but you may need to remove the ship.
 
I left this one in full HD its about 5 minutes long. at 500 megabytes it took forever to upload!

when its embedded it does not give it to you in HD you have to go to Youtube to see it.

 

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