Mantis Shrimps smarter than Octos?

Fujisawas Sake (sorry, I forgot to answer. :oops: ): On several points you make I whole-heartedly agree. It is true that octopuses (and most any cephalopod's) cerebral ganglia are far more developed. And yes, monogamous mating does not DIRECTLY tie into intelligence(more on that later), and you are right-on-the-money when it comes to difficulty of defining animal intelligence (I DID say "it depends"). On others, however, I must make a point. You mentioned massive amounts of sensory processing(for example). Stomatopods have easily as much sensory data to process as cephalopods, as their eyes and other senses detect far more than even humans can (as if that's hard for the animal kingdom :roll: ). Stomatopods eyes(for example) are constantly taking in data from their surroundings, and with their eyes viewing capabilities (i.e. infrared, polarized, ultraviolet, etc.), that is an immense amount of data. Not only that, but they control their antennal scales "special function": polarized signalling. Also, instead of killing each other (like an octo would), mantises have highly developed ritualistic behaviors to reduce encounters that "come to blows" at all. The monogamous mating raises the likelyhood of the young surviving (dad gets food and mom stays with the kids), and creates a necessaty(sp?) for individual recognition, as well as other things.

Look, I could rant and rave on and on, but it's pointless to do so. I believe Octomush has gotten his answer, and I don't wish to highjack this thread. Continuing to rant will just get more people dissagreeing with me. I have gotten my point in, which is enough for me. This isn't from just one book, so I can't really tell you that, BTW.
 
Cephkid said:
Trying to say thay mantises are equal to octos ion an octo board, what was I thinking... :roll:

Dude,

Actually, it has nothing to do with being on an octopus board. My opinion is formed soley through observation of the animal, its histology and anatomy, and taking a helluva lot of biology classes.

Also, as far as intelligence is concerned, its not simply a matter of comparison to humans, even thought that has been the approach taken since time out of mind. Success on the evolutionary scale mostly has to do with adaptability instead of intellect. The reason we have been so successful in the short term is that we are generalists and it can also be attributed to our ability to change the environment to suit ourselves. Conservation and ethical issues aside, this has made us stand out among all dominant species ever to inhabit the planet.

I guess I take the subject of animal intelligence seriously, mostly because the brain, human or otherwise, is one of the most remarkable structures in all of biology. If you think about it, intelligence is probably more an evolutionary addition to having a more complex neurology. I personally like to view intelligence as the sum total of neural activity added to the ability to adapt to situations utilizing behavioral changes with speed and efficiency.

Just my :twocents: - Sushi and Sake,

John
 
CK,

I see your points... Oh, and on the web mechanics, for some reason your last post must have come out almost at exactly the same times that I posted the last message(above)... Sorry about that. I would love to know where this information could be found (espececially since Stomatos are WAAAAY interesting). And here's a funny thing; I lost track of who started this thread, so when I asked you about where you read this, I meant that question for Octomush... :oops: Sorry about that. Lots of great answers, though.

Oh, and feel free to rant and rave. I think we all do. :mrgreen:

Octomush,

Great thread, btw! That's why we're all here. :grad:

Sushi and Sake,

John
 
Smarter than or dumber than is a tricky issue...even depending on the amount of ganglian bundles, etc...Mantis shrimps certainly are clever, but octos really almost take the cake when it comes to innovation.
 
One day away and I miss the beginning of a great thread!

Cephkid, no one here wants to flame you, even if most people on this board prefer to company of octos over shrimp. I think for most of us here, our affection for octos is probably not based on rational information, but on personal fascination which won't listen to reason. John may be the exception. John, Joel and Greg make good points that go right to Nick's original question: what exactly is intelligence? I'm not the only person who is eager to read more in this thread.

Mantis shrimp don't strike me as an animal offering a great deal of interaction, while an octo does. I don't have a tank, so this is based entirely on reading, the messages on TONMO, and some great video footage, so my opinion shouldn't count for much.

I think it's the Cephpage that has a story of a mantis killing a BRO in the early stage of a prominent marine biologist's career. Survival may be a measure of many things, including intelligence. Knowing what you can physically beat and what you should try to outrun is one kind of intelligence. (This kind of intelligence is most notably lacking in small dogs - maybe we can agree that octos and mantis shrimp are smarter than yorkies.)

Melissa
 
Couldn't agree more with Melissa.

Here's a slightly askew view, but octopuses come in a wide variety of forms with species living in very different environments. Many forms of octopus live in the deep ocean in very static environments, one only has to think of images of deep sea cirrate octopods to note that they are very sluggish, dull and unreactive animals, no matter how scientifically fascinating they are. They do not react quickly because they simply don't have to in such a dark and unchanging environment.

To compare mantis shrimp to octopuses is unfair as octopuses are a such diverse group and encompass a whole spectrum of lifestyles and behavioural differences. Put a mantis shrimp against a Dumbo Octopus and one would judge the mantis to be 'more intelligent' as it reactions are so much faster, yet compared to a Mimic Octopus or Wonderpus and one could reach the opposite conclusion.

To be fair though, one cannot really compare the two animal groups directly as it is like comparing chalk and cheese, each animal is uniquely adapted to its own environment and reacts to stimuli in its own individual manner. And both groups are successful and wonderful creatures so does it really matter?

(Mind you, I think my cat would beat an octopus any day. :biggrin2:)
 
BTW, it was 'ol doc Roy Caldwell who had the BRO killed by a 'Peacock' mantis (O. scyllarus). On Blueboard.com-AS I MENTIONED EARLIER IN THE THREAD (did NOONE read it????), there already are TWO "articles" called "Comparing Stomatopods and Cephalopods" they have part one and part two. Part two is the one you want to read.
 
Ok I probally dont know half as much as u guys bout' this kinda thing but... Heres my 2 cents. From the observations that I have made from my own tank I would have to say that octos are MUCH smarter than mantis shrimps! For example while the shrimp is swimming around in circles chasing his antanae or somthin' the octo is cooly moving rocks around to make himself a home or forraging for food. Or even ploting his escape! Now lets take a minute and think here, who is smarter? The mantis with his tiny tiny brain? Orrrrrrr the curious intelegent funny octo? Yeah I would have to go with the shrimp... lol jus kidding of course.. The octo is by far the most intelegent invert! Buuut thats just me.... U guys can come up with ur own answeres! Have fun! :heee:
 
....er...no. Mantises don't leave their burrows when there's an OCTO in the tank. The SMALLER species do NOT have a chance against an O.cyanea. I think your guy is sick or something, and with the octo in there, with THAT behavior, in danger. (Why do you think I haven't tried to get a pygmy octo by now? I'm waiting 'till I can get a longer-lived-species or phil dies, because with phil, I can stand it. I'm preparing a smaller nano tank for a mantis already, though.)
 

Shop Amazon

Shop Amazon
Shop Amazon; support TONMO!
Shop Amazon
We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon and affiliated sites.
Back
Top