• Looking to buy a cephalopod? Check out Tomh's Cephs Forum, and this post in particular shares important info about our policies as it relates to responsible ceph-keeping.

Keeping Octopus in Captivity.

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and don't worry Scarmig...the rest of us understood exactly what you meant...sorry that mr.personality didn't! :smile:
I do apologize for throwing some rotten fruit, but I get sooooo tired of pompous academics who know nothing acting like they know something besides how to write for a grant...oh wait, doesn't the secretary do that????
Greg
 
Thanks all! Not to worry...I had to go to a game and fish conference last month and PETA showed up...yikes! They would have given pakic,( or pakoc or whatever) a serious run for his money!
Happy cephing!
Greg

p.s. I think the site is run quite well, I have learned quite a lot of new info, and made some fun friends...don't change a thing Tony!
 
i signed back on, and there was a mountain where a thread used to be.... you have to give it to pakoc though, first he/she/it makes an unconvincing diatribe, then has the gall to demand that the person in cahrge of the site makes he/she/it a moderator, even though pakoc has grasped how things are done around here....

now that ive made a post in this thread, maybe someone should try ridiculing my avatar....
 
I'm thinking yours isn't nearly as fun-worthy as the Plush Cthulhu and Plush Nyarlethotep Entwined in Embarassing Embrace with Buddy Christ Pointing and Giving a Thumbs Up that sits atop my computer at work!
:jester:









(does that count as ridicule?)
 
cthulhu77 said:
Oh yes, I think we can all agree that jellyfish are not at all deserving of any kind fate...hey, lets study those! Are you sure they don't taste like chicken???? :biggrin2: Oh wait, I am sure some sophmore will write in who loves jellyfish and wants to" nuke the gay whales for jesus" too!
Sorry, it is my current favorite bumper sticker...until I get this one printed up!
soon to come:[/img]

We have t shirts also...lots of ceph stuff!
Happy ceph keeping!
Greg

[heavy hungarian accent]
I am here to buy for the Here Fishy Fishy with the automobile sticking. I have in my pants holes of burning bling-bling for it, please.
[/heavy hungarian accent]

That's got to be one of the best ideas for a sticker I've ever seen. Someone should cafepress that thing real soon! :tentaclepokepoke:
 
cthulhu77 said:
Perhaps I am just a "nutter", but if you ever read HP Lovecraft you would understand...you can read can't you???

On the evidence, Pakoc can read. On his/her profile, "Reading" appears as the sole entry under the interests header.

Pakoc, I couldn't help but notice that you chose to begin six sentences in your last post with the word, "I." This reinforces the impression that you are far more interested in drawing attention to yourself than you are in advancing a wider agenda. Are you, by any chance, a Meso-American demon? "Pakoc" is mentioned in the old travelogue of a Spaniard touring the Mayan territories:

"Y si estuviera en tu mano como piensas y tales cosas hablas, ya lo hubieras ejecutado o el demonio Pakoc (este es un ídolo que les habla muy a menudo) que adoras y tales cosas te dicta."

"...the demon Pakoc (an idol, who speaks to them very often)..."

Keep talking, Pakoc.

Clem


FAMSI © 2001 - David Bolles
 
The original topic is a relevant one, I think, and one I am very interested in as someone involved in captive aquaculture. Every time a captive specimen dies, the question is raised whether the end justifies the means. In instances of whole-tank or -ecosystem collapses, I (personally) must reconsider whether I should be attempting to keep such systems, when the protocols obviously aren't right yet.
I am keeping up with this thread in the hopes of further serious discussion, ideally with the bad things (mudslinging etc) occurring at a decreased rate. :wink:

:snorkel:
 
cthulhu77 said:
I do apologize for throwing some rotten fruit, but I get sooooo tired of pompous academics who know nothing acting like they know something besides how to write for a grant...oh wait, doesn't the secretary do that????
Greg

.....hmmmmm.
OK - I know this is all in good fun (or being said to try and defuse a situation that is nearly out of control). Not really true though Greg (I've taken no offence, don't worry).

Pakoc, there are no idiots on this site, of that I can assure you. However, there are many people from many different backgrounds, with many different points of view.

Why don't you just retract a few of those statements and accusations; you'll find those people that have taken a stab at you have only done so because you threw the first punch. Some of us have very short memories you know (it happens as you get old and crusty). You could post something similar to your first post on on the 'Physiology & Biology' board; I promise you that I'll keep it as tight as possible (with a little help from the friendly and obliging, well-behaved and non-antagonistic TONMO community, who will promise me that they'll not go off on some tangent .... won't you all?).
Ta

Steve
 
Well...that was interesting...

:grad: Pakoc, please consider that each online community has its own flavor, and Tonmo is much as Tony describes, like a cocktail party. I am familiar with how other boards manage "off topic" posts or "off forum" threads. Some of them can be almost fascistic in their enforcement of these guidelines. As you might guess, I feel that such rigid enforcement is sometimes unfortunate. Tonmo is at the other end of the spectrum from those.

It is true that there is a general etiquette applicable to such forums as this. Many people are unaware of it, or slowly learning it, myself included. Sometimes this etiquette is even used as a barrier to new members--those ignorant of it commit gaffes and are shouted down, reinforcing a "cliqueish" environment. Tonmo, thankfully, rarely exhibits this common behavior, but you are quite right to take at least some offense at our "hijacking" of this thread. Please do not not take TOO much offense, however...I would much rather we police ourselves gently, and it is not meant in any sense of meanness. And, you will find you are still able to carry out your conversation regardless of our :jester: .

You have made some rather negative, emotionally-driven statements in response to other posts. I'm sure you are aware how counterproductive this is...it will ultimately derail your discussion and drive you or others from the forum. I would encourage you to ignore offences, accidental or deliberate, and concentrate on your topic. That alone should ultimately keep the thread stimulating and on topic, if you wish to keep it so.

rusty
 
I do think that replies to mudslinging are justified, sorry. And I do think that the point raised by pacok is an old rehash of the basic moral issue of whether or not it is appropriate to maintain animals in an environment where you know that they will not/ can not flourish. The price of their lives is the study, and learning that derives from them. To stand on a pedestal and spout diatribe about how cruel it is , is almost laughable...how many millions of cephs are used for food each year? Having been involved in the animal trade for over two decades, professionally, I can guarantee you that the amount of cephs harvested for scientific research and the live fish market is negligible compared to the amount used as bait, or for the frozen food market. No one has a right to govern anyone elses motives or impetus in this matter...and while pakoc raised an argument, it was answered in the first few replies, and should now have been answered in post quite well. It is a silly argument. Not worthy of a scientist at all. If we were to start to anthromorphize every thing in the world, we could all move in with him/her/it into an Ivory Tower and ignore the REAL world, where sometimes, death does occur...no one, not any ceph keeper I have ever met, is happy about a charge of his/hers/its death...we all take it very seriously, but to cast a black and white filter over the whole operation is juvenile.
If any keeper blithely maintains animals in less than desirable conditions, of course, it is sad...but the truth of the matter is, here you have a group of DEDICATED ceph/reef keepers who are , in the end, trying to understand and perpetuate the species, and we meet in an equal field where we can discuss the ideas and aspects of what we need to do...and I feel on a very moral and healthy ground. There is no need for every paper to have footnotes or references, most groundbreaking is done by people like us...with the dedication and experience to talk about, and yes, sometimes laugh about, the trials, tribulations, and joy that comes from learning about such magnificent creatures...

I guess that is that.
Happy cephing.
Greg
 
Here's what I think.

Whatever the merits of Pakoc's argument may be, and despite the value of discussing such fundamental issues as conservation, species viability and ethical private and scientific conduct, Pakoc's highly insulting manner and language has effectively voided his/her credibility. Though I have never met Tony Morelli in person I consider him to be a friend, one who was generous enough to give this newcomer the opportunity to present an enthusiast's perspective. I do not take kindly to those who would insult and denigrate my friends, from behind the anonymous cover of the Web, cloaked in the aggrandizing, self-tailored mantle(!) of truth-teller.

That Tony, Steve and Kat can still muster the generosity of spirit to suggest alternate venues for a serious, focused discussion of the issues is remarkable, and laudable given the circumstances. It's worth stressing, however, that Pakoc remained silent until long after the topic had gone astray, a silence which Greg has noted as well. However "stimulated" he/she may have been by the first respondents, it would appear that responding to those posts and furthering the dialogue was secondary to some other, more reflexive agenda. Pakoc spoiled for an intellectual fight, got the makings of one, and then laid low until he/she had the opportunity to fire grapeshot into the distracted crowd. After that, I think any generosity extended to Pakoc is generosity for its own sake.

Were Pakoc to retract the more inflammatory statements he/she has made, and tender a public, sincere apology to Tony, Greg and the rest of us "idiots," it might be possible to get past this upset. Perhaps Pakoc is an intellectual "bull in the china-shop," but so far he/she has left behind little more than bull-****.

Prove me wrong, Pakoc.

Yours truly,

Adam
 
Ok. Seriously. Let us discuss this...does keeping ANY animal in captivity warrant their eventual demise at our hands? I am a falconer...knowing that removing a bird of prey from the wild will have an effect on wild bird populations, impinge on its essential right as a living being to do what it wants at any given time, and keep it from reproduction. How come then, falconers are the ones resposible for bringing back the peregrine to the US? We were breeding them long before the ddt scare, and graciously donated hundreds of young falcons for the release program, educated the rangers who enforced the laws, educated the public and the people on why what happened, happened...AND continue to do so! This is the same kind of close knit community...how many of us would give away captive cuttles to a school or a genuinely interested cephahol??? I would be willing to bet that all of us would...and maybe someday through our learning, we can educate hundreds or thousands of others, who maybe only think of octos as "calamari" to have on a piece of garlic buttered toast...(that does sound good though...sorry, I haven't eaten yet) We have to reach out to those people who say "uuugghh" when you talk about octopus, and let them know how wonderful they are...
Greg
 
Greg:

Of course this is a rehash of a basic moral issue. You statement, however, implies that this issue is firmly settled and that no further debate is warranted. Perhaps that is true for you...but would you not also agree that to folks such as PETA, the issue is also firmly settled...but on the other side of the fence? Discussion of even "unequivocally settled" issues can be of great value (consider many of your classes in school,) and given the current prominence of animal ethics in the public eye and academic circles I do not think I could describe this question as close to settled. Neither do I think we can accomplish that here...the purpose of a discussion such as ours is not to settle the issue, but simply to compare our opinions with others, perhaps to make some adjustments to our own or even adopt completely new ones.

You mention that "the price of their lives is the study." I would suggest rephrasing that to read "the price of our study is their lives." Under many circumstances I find such an exchange acceptable, for the benefit that study brings to humanity. But not in all cases, and further, it is confined to study. Can you seriously tell me you believe your activities as a cephkeeper and falconer have contributed as much to science as those of a dedicated researcher? I would think the answer to that is an inherent and emphatic "no." I believe those contributions are genuine, but cannot compare to hard laboratory or field science. The contributions you describe of the falconers' community are an excellent thing, but surely a dedicated program of reintroducing species to the wild would be more efficient and effective? If the effects of ddt would have made it impossible to establish such a program after the fact, without falconers, can this truly be counted as a benefit and not merely a happy coincidence? Furthermore, how many dog owners care for their pets properly? How many falconers are "good" falconers? Many of us keep pets or otherwise "use" animals in ways that, though loving and responsible, cater exclusively to our individual desires. I do not believe that science justifies all animal use, but does mitigate it partially, especially when applied to "recreational" purposes.

Please forgive the rather icky connotations of the above paragraph... :shock: ...it's very difficult to discuss this without making it sound odd at best!

I do however believe that the reality of the relationship between humans and other animals as we coexist in this world, as well as the raw nature of humanity itself, ultimately justifies our exploitation of animals to a point. That point is of course what most people debate, and it is strongly affected by the previously discussed thicket of benefits and costs including science, intelligence, pain, suffering, economics, human emotion and empathy, etc. Eating octopuses live is, to me, a bit over the line. Eating worms alive is not (though I find neither terribly appealing.) I encourage all ceph owners to be more curious and investigative with their pets, and to share their findings in the grand and glorious tradition of science, and have great respect for those who do.

Adam:

I would not describe Pakoc's language and manner as highly insulting--as I'm sure you have witnessed at some point, at its worst this conversation is civil compared to countles bbs threads. I will not discuss who "threw the first punch" as by this time it is utterly irrelevant. I recognize your feelings regarding perceived attacks on Tony and others here, and do not think you are wrong to feel that way, but as I advised, please consider the influence your feelings have on your statements and logic.

I do not demand an apology from Pakoc. Though I realize you make no demand, you do frame a situation which is by default equivalent--that he apologize or go "unforgiven" and ignored, at the very least by you. I am willing to overlook heated statements and attitudes on anyone's part. We are all somewhat prone to such behavior. At this time whatever insults have been made are fairly indirect and negligible, and apologies should not be necessary in such situations provided the responsible parties are willing to make consistent best efforts.

I find your suggestion that Pakoc has manipulated his participation in this conversation to maximize disruptive and aggressive effect ("laying low until he could fire grapeshot") clouded by your distress and unjustifiable. The nature of a bbs discussion is prone the the vagaries of personal schedules and global timezones and lack of participation cannot inherently be held against anyone. Further, I could not blame him for simply being afraid to jump back into a brewing firestorm, though perhaps he should have been better prepared for the reactions he might receive.

Greg:

I do not think "replies" to mudslinging are justified when they are in kind. I am quite firm in that. Perhaps this is a philosophical conversation for another time and thread.

rusty
 
Perhaps this is a philosophical conversation for another time and thread.
Just one quick thing from me... there's been a lot of discussion about whether or not this forum (The Octopus' Den) is the appropriate place for this discussion. As I see it, it fits here just fine... this forum is meant to be for general discussion, and if meandering is appropriate anywhere, here is the place. At the same time, I appreciate Steve's invitation to the Physiology & Biology forum... Forums with focused descriptions should naturally have proportionally more focused discussions. I guess it depends on what you want to accomplish in your discussion! Despite being called an idiot :bonk:, I actually have enjoyed this thread, as is. :smile:
 
Sorry again, but I am sticking to my guns on this one...I feel quite justified and correct, though I never meant to imply that the thread was over, or that the subject should be dropped. In response to the allegations that field research or lab study is more worthy, hogwash. I do work as a field researcher, and as a hobbyist, as a professional, and as an amateur all at once...I am involved, and have been, in the zoological trade for decades, and am quite willing to go toe to toe with any one in the zoological community on a point of ethics and the reasons behind captive maintainance! Everyone deserves their own opinion, I just happen to disagree with pakoc's. Which is my right.
Thanks!
Greg
 
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