idea for breeder

mucktopus

Haliphron Atlanticus
Staff member
Moderator
#4
Why couldn't you ship bimacs from overseas? Many of the wild-caughts are shipped from Indonesia and they sure seem to make it to the states ok. If they're small they should be fine. Fed-ex can keep packages chilled, can't they? Shipping to/from Europe from the east coast is about the same as shipping to/from the west coast (from the east coast). You could set up a hub in NY for domestic shipping just like the pacific animal hub in LA.
 

bmatson

O. bimaculoides
Registered
#5
Well I supppose they could but I would imagine the price would be much higher. Plus they may not think it's worth it to ship that far and with the extra work of raising bimacs.

Ben
 

Nancy

Titanites
Staff member
Moderator
#6
I know that we ship octos to the UK, so it should be possible the other way. Shipping costs would be much greater overseas. Would there be a problem with customs or delays? I don't know.

Nancy
 

cthulhu77

Titanites
Supporter
#7
Not really. Christian, a very good friend of mine, imports animals from all over the world...no sweat. But, the most likely thing is that one of us, or several of us, will start captive producing the bimacs soon...

Film at eleven.
 

Feelers

Vampyroteuthis
Registered
#8
America is pretty loose with its imports, and Indonesia is very loose with its exports. Europe has a lot more red tape with things like this.

And unfortunately/fortunately, NZ has the toughest import laws of all. To get a single bimac into NZ it would cost thousands of dollars. My genetics lecturer had to wait three years to import a strain of yeast. :shock:
 

Colin

Colossal Squid
Supporter
#9
It really wouldn't be worth the time and money for TMC to breed octopuses, they are very cheap for them to buy and the market isn't all that good either.

Andy, are you reading this? Any thoughts?

(Andy works at TMC)
 

cthulhu77

Titanites
Supporter
#10
"Andy, are you groovin' on Elvis..."

Sorry, the song came to mind. The lack of demand for captive octopus will always keep any business from investing the time and money ...it'll have to be a hobbyist's field. Sigh.
 

Brock Fluharty

Haliphron Atlanticus
Registered
#13
Dang it...that means the larvae will be small too right? Hopefully the octopods they get are not O. bocki then...is Bali a place? If so, what other octopods are found in that region?
 

cephjedi

GPO
Registered
#14
Hi Gang,

Just to chime in, well, yeah. The ability of any captive breeding program to unhinge a wild-caught market largely depends on the ratio of demand to complexity of rearing. Several have tried to make a business of breeding, rearing and selling cephalopods (Cephsource, OctoPets, LongArmLabs) with no real success. I don't know how LLL is doing, but if anybody can do it, it's Chris.

There's also not a lot of money in raising cephalopods. Yeah, WE think they're neat, but the real aquaculture research money is going to come from the food market. If we could show Asia that cephs could be massively cultured, then the science and technique refinement would really take off.

Until then, it's us fanatics tearing our hair out and coping with Joe Six-Pack budgets.

If you want a bimac, patience is your best friend. After keeping dozens of them over the years, I noted a pattern: bimacs start showing up in pet shops and iShops around late summer through about February - and they seem to die off between March and June.

My guess is that eggs are laid in the late Spring/early Summer, and the new generation of bimacs are too small to be found by collection divers until close to fall, when they're about the size of a lime.

This is merely an anecdotal observation and hasn't been tested. If anyone has done a formal study, I'd love to hear about it.

On a side note, my wife and I are rearing not one but TWO clutches of small eggs of an unidentified species from indonesia. The first clutch is due to hatch any second now- the embryos flipped inside the eggs last week and as of this morning there were no yolks left. They're in an experimental rotary current plankton breeder. It'll be interesting to see if we can get them to the benthic stage, let alone grow them out completely.

Good luck with your eggs! CephJedi
 

cephjedi

GPO
Registered
#15
Hey Brock!

Heh heh. Many imported pet trade cephalopods come from Bali, and I think many would back up the assertion that there are at least 10 times more undescribed species of octopus in Bali waters than there are described ones!

In my last post I told of two clutches of small eggs that we are attempting to raise at the moment. Both of them came from an unidentified Bali octopus. At the store, even though it was labeled "bali octopus" I was SURE this critter was a bimac, albeit on the small side.

Then she laid a zillion small eggs. At first we thought Bimaculatus, but it didn't line up. Then we reached for Norman's book and were subsequently confounded. If the babies make it, we'll collect a lot more data for ID and try to nail it down. Till then, it doesn't matter. We have two zillion mouths, er, beaks to feed!

Cheers, CephJedi
 

Brock Fluharty

Haliphron Atlanticus
Registered
#16
Ok. I guess that is a relief if I want to breed, but there is the obvious downside of not knowing what species it is...I know how to tell if it's a bimac though. It will show it's eyespots sooner or later. Are bimacs large eggs types? Is Bali a warm temperature area? It sounds like it. Thank you guys so much for not flaming me for wanting an octo!!!
 

DHyslop

Architeuthis
Supporter
#17
cephjedi said:
My guess is that eggs are laid in the late Spring/early Summer, and the new generation of bimacs are too small to be found by collection divers until close to fall, when they're about the size of a lime.

This is merely an anecdotal observation and hasn't been tested. If anyone has done a formal study, I'd love to hear about it.

Hi Jim,

I have just a study in my hand right now.

Forsythe & Hanlon 1988 said:
During the spring of 1984 at Santa Barbara (which represents the northern range limit of this species), egg-laying took place from at least December through May, with hatching in May through September. In the southern range (San Quintin), spawning occured from October 1984 through January 1985, with hatching from January through May 1985. These estimates by no means represent time limits of spawning, but they do inidcate a broader spawning season for this species than reported previously (Hochburg & Fields, 1980). Caution is advisable in viewing these estimates because the 1983/84 "El Nino" conditions may have affected the normal spawning season.
Anyway, Jim's right about aquaculture. It won't be profitable. The only way it will happen is by folks like us who are interested in raising hatchlings from eggs as a hobby in itself on the occasion that eggs are available. That isn't a good or a bad thing, it just is a sign that this is a hobby in its infancy. Any one of us could become (and some here are already on their way!) the cephalopod equivalent of Anthony Calfo.

Dan
 

cephjedi

GPO
Registered
#18
Thanks for posting the hard facts Dan! Interesting stuff, and it's good to know I was at least in the ballpark, ha!

For Brock: Bimac 101! There's two flavors of "Bimac:" Octopus bimaculoides and O. bimaculatus. Here's how to tell em apart:

`latus:
-Larger overall (head is grapefruit sized)
-Striking flattened out display
-blue ocelli in jagged radiating pattern
-black ink
-small eggs

`loides:
-Smaller (head gets orange-sized)
-Generally darker complexion
-Blue ocelli in a ring-shaped chain
-Brown ink
-large eggs

News! We had our first small egg hatchling today! Named him "squirt" He's about a millimeter across and blows the cute scale as he attempts to jet around the nursery tank. More info as it comes in.

Tonight we acclimate benthic and pelagic copepods!

Cheers! CephJedi
 

DHyslop

Architeuthis
Supporter
#20
cephjedi said:
Thanks for posting the hard facts Dan! Interesting stuff, and it's good to know I was at least in the ballpark, ha!
Hehehe, Jim now I'm really going to pick on you! In that article and another in the same volume (Malacologia v29) individuals from different populations of O. bimaculoides are reported to grow larger than O. bimaculatus!

Discussion on it here: Bicamculoides vs bimaculatus[sic]

The caveat is neither study's main goal was to look at size, so the comparisons may not be fair: it is possible that the global average 'latus is indeed larger than the average 'loides; however in those particular samples it seemed the other way around!

As hobbyists I think we've been passing on a few myths without truly understanding the sources. I've been spending time in the peer-reviewed literature (preparing to someday hatch some bimacs, hopefully) and have been surprised at the number of things I've found contrary to previous understanding--the size differential being a good example.

I don't know about the other characters used to distinguish the two bimacs--I haven't found mention of them in the literature. It would appear that most scientists differentiate the two based on egg size or gut bacteria. If you have a good email for Forsythe you might email him, given that you know him and I'm sure he would know (and the NRCC addy I have for him is bouncing!).

Dan
 

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