Final check

[Ryan Smith]

Ok, well everything is coming along. I have a job on Monday so Ill probably get my ro/di then. After water Im going to get the substrate and live rock. Im looking for a good place to get live rock, and all of my lfs charge $10 per pound.... So Iv found Live aquaria has a 35lb box for 69.99+ $48.00 shipping or something like that. It is foundation live rock I believe and Im wondering if foundation live rock does the same thing as live rock. If I can get that, ill just get a seperate 5-10 lbs. So really my question is does foundation lr work the same as normal lr? Im just wondering why its so cheap.

 

[DWhatley]

Typically, base rock typically has very little exterior life and may not be live (or is mistreated LR that has been allowed to dry -dry = dead rock - or been returned). Additionally, I would encourage you to consider only using aquacultured rock and not wild harvest. Shipping is definitely the biggest problem (expense). Here is a link to my supplier (I am their webmaster) and you can look for reviews on the forums which may also suggest a few other suppliers.

 

[Joe-Ceph]

... my question is does foundation lr work the same as normal lr? Im just wondering why its so cheap.

Typically, base rock typically has very little exterior life and may not be live (or is mistreated LR that has been allowed to dry -dry = dead rock - or been returned)...

I think he's asking if foundation lr will provide comparable water filtration to more expensive lr. Live rock works as a filter because it is porous and so it provides a living space for both aerobic and anaerobic (nitrifying and denitrifying) bacteria. The amount of "exterior life" is a separate feature of live rock that has nothing to do with filtration (unless you mean exterior bacterial life). Even if the rock is dead, the bacteria will repopulate in a few weeks, given a food supply and water flow.

I don't know the answer, but I think the question is:
is foundation lr ("base rock"?) less porous than more expensive live rock?

 

[DWhatley]

Foundation/base rock is not well defined and I would ask for a clear definition from the supplier before purchasing. Usually it will be dead rock (as in returned rock/dead rock that has been allowed to dry) and may or may not have been cleaned. I hesitate to say all base rock is not live rock because Kara (Sealife) sells a base rock that is alive and other vendors may as well. Generally it is used only for initial esthetics to have more rock in the aquarium that will eventually become LR over time (much longer than a few weeks - Good LR has been in the ocean at least two years).

The PURPOSE of live rock is to start a biological cycle in your tank. If the rock is dead, it will not provide a cycle. Using dead rock in combination with LR will allow the dead rock to grow bacteria over time but it won't provide the initial bacteria to cycle your tank.

If you want me to give you a yes or no answer, my answer would be no, base rock is not an acceptable rock for cycling a tank.

 

[Joe-Ceph]

[base rock] will eventually become LR over time (much longer than a few weeks - Good LR has been in the ocean at least two years).

Biological filtration is all about providing a large surface area for aerobic and anaerobic bacteria to live on, and this is accomplished in many different ways in aquariums: porous ceramic, sponges, sand, gravel, sintered glass, bio-balls, cloth, etc. For every one of those methods, the bacteria colony grows from nothing to sufficient in a few weeks (assuming a food supply and water flow) and populates the surface area provided by the media. Why wouldn't that be true for the surface area provided by porous but "dead" live rock?
Yes, cultured lr is left in the ocean for years before it is sold, but is that so that it will have a sufficient bacteria population to provide filtration, or so that it will grow a lot of cool looking, and slow growing, animals and plants? People strongly prefer the look of rock with a lot of "stuff" on it to barren looking rock, and so will pay a lot more for it, but does it house more bacteria?

The PURPOSE of live rock is to start a biological cycle in your tank. If the rock is dead, it will not provide a cycle. Using dead rock in combination with LR will allow the dead rock to grow bacteria over time but it won't provide the initial bacteria to cycle your tank.

I don't think that is true. The primary purpose of live rock is to provide a place (large surface area) for bacteria to live on long term, but the cycle will start from the few bacteria in the air if food (ammonia) is present in the tank. The bacteria needed for filtration in our tanks are ubiquitous and do not need to be imported or seeded from an outside source, it just takes a few weeks longer for the colony to grow, but it will grow.

If you want me to give you a yes or no answer, my answer would be no, base rock is not an acceptable rock for cycling a tank.

I'm not an expert, but I'm skeptical about this claim. Sure, if the bacteria colony is transported intact from the ocean to your tank, in the expensive live rock, then it need only recover from the impact of travel, which would be faster than regrowing from nothing, but the slow way still only takes a few weeks (8 to 15?) as demonstrated in all other bio filtration methods, which all start with "dead" bio-balls, sand, ceramic rings, etc.

Foundation/base rock is not well defined and I would ask for a clear definition from the supplier before purchasing. Usually it will be dead rock (as in returned rock/dead rock that has been allowed to dry) and may or may not have been cleaned.

I agree, but my worry about base rock isn't that it is "dead", it is that it may not be as porous as live rock, and so may not provide living space for as many bacteria. Live rock doesn't weigh as much as other "rock" because it is so porous. Ask the supplier if an equal sized piece of the stuff they are selling as base rock, weighs the same as the more expensive live rock. If it is heavier (less porous) then it won't work as well for filtration, but it it is just as light, then it will (after a few week longer) (make sure that both are wet and water-logged when weighed, or the weights won't be comparable.)

I live in San Diego, and I could collect rocks from the ocean that have been there for centuries, and have lots of cool things growing on them, but they would provide almost no filtration in my aquarium because they are dense, non-porous, rocks, that can't house many bacteria.

My advice is that if you have more money than time, then buy the expensive live rock, because it looks better, become it will be useful sooner, and because there may be something I'm missing about the value of 2+ year old live rock.
On the other hand, if one has more time than money (an extra 8 weeks or so?) AND if the base rock is just as light (porous) as the expensive live rock, then go with the base rock, and maybe a couple pounds of live rock rubble to seed the tank with (not required, but an easy and cheap way to save a couple weeks)

 

[DWhatley]

Sorry Joe-Ceph but I will take issue with some of your LR thoughts and go as far to say that New Tank Syndrome comes from the simple analysis that bacteria will culture over weeks on any porous surface. I will highly agree with your thoughts on the porosity of the rock being a quality factor but not with the timing required to establish a bio filter from dead rock. The surface area is NOT just the outside (hence the desire for porous rock) and growing a sustaninable bacteria population through out the biological surface does not happen quickly. Garf (a miserable site but worth looking around for DIY and cost saving ideas that have had a lot of reasearch) has some interesting write ups about creating home made LR and in their grung product (that gets embedded into the artificial rock). They make a point of mentioning the diversity needed to successfully sustain a biological filter and the need to have the live culture throughout the structure.

Having not survived (on numerous occassions, saltwater tank speaking) the days before LR and seeing the dramatic change in what we could keep then and what we can keep now as well has having lost critters by starting with inadaquately populated LR "but the water tested perfectly", I will argue that a cycled tank is not the initial population count of bacteria but is instead, the sustainability of a strong culture. That means growing out the multiple types of bacteria and the critters that eat and help feed it to create a mini eco system inside the rock.

 

[Joe-Ceph]

All good points, and I agree with 95% of them. I admire your disciplined scientific approach, and I'm very grateful for your willingness to share your knowledge and spend your time helping this community, so I hope you don't find my persistence to be annoying...

But the question remains: how long does it take for dead porous rock to filter as well as live rock? You implied that it takes two years, based on how long commercial producers take to culture liverock. I predicted that it would take 8 to 15 weeks, based on how long it takes other bio filter material to be ready for livestock. I think my points are valid too, and I'm still not convinced that it takes more than 15 weeks to "Fill" dead liverock with a stable population of bacteria, large enough to deal with a stable input rate of ammonia. "Diversity" you say. Okay, but a nitrifying bacterium can reproduce within a few days; how many 4 day generations does it take for the wars between competing species of bacteria to run their course and end in equilibrium? Two years is 182 generations, wouldn't 22 be enough?

I thought about the need to populate the deeper parts of the liverock, and I know from my own experience that anaerobic bacteria seem to develop last (take longer to develop). I've read that Remote Deep Sand Beds (14" deep) only take about 3 months to develop enough anaerobic bacteria to eliminate nitrates in a system, so I have trouble believing that it could take much longer than that to populate the inner parts of liverock. (It seems like a "rock" to us, but to a bacterium it's a sprawling city with a lot of empty apartments)

I won't know for sure until I see (or generate) some empirical evidence, but based on my reasoning I'd be quite willing to take the chance and start a tank using "dead" live rock. I'm even more willing to let Ryan try it . I would add gradually increasing amounts of ammonia, up to (and a little beyond) the estimated amount that my livestock will produce, over ten weeks, stay at that level for three more weeks, and if "the water test perfectly", then add my livestock (and hope I didn't under estimate the waste they produce).

You didn't assert this, but the conventional wisdom is that "live rock is the only way to do a reef tank", but I'm one of those that needs to know "why" before I'm willing to believe something. If I can turn other dead porous media, like ceramic rings, into a stable bio filter in a few weeks, why can't I turn dead live rock back into live live rock (as far as bio filtration is concerned) in 100 to 150 percent of that time? It was universally accepted for many years that nano reefs were impossible (too small to be stable), and that turned out to be nonsense, so these days I tend to need convincing when my reasoning says "I can" and conventional wisdom says "you can't".

 

[Ryan Smith]

Well thanks for the in depth answer, Id rather be safe than sorry, so Im going to go with normal lr. I actually looked around a little bit more and found other live rock fairly cheap that is aquacultured, not harvasted, and will work.

 

[DWhatley]

so I hope you don't find my persistence to be annoying...

as long as I can have the last word, I'm good

I won't know for sure until I see (or generate) some empirical evidence, but based on my reasoning I'd be quite willing to take the chance and start a tank using "dead" live rock. I'm even more willing to let Ryan try it . I would add gradually increasing amounts of ammonia, up to (and a little beyond) the estimated amount that my livestock will produce, over ten weeks, stay at that level for three more weeks, and if "the water test perfectly", then add my livestock (and hope I didn't under estimate the waste they produce).

This is where we differ and you defeat your own argument. With true live rock, you don't need to add any ammonia, dead shrimp or fish to grow the appropriate bacteria, it will grow sustainably on its own. At initial stability, only a large clean up crew need be added and fed to bring it to readiness and it will STAY cycled if you give it a full three months (I usually wait 4-5 on a new tank before adding an octo). If you try that with base rock you won't even keep fish alive long without massive water changes constantly (and then you will likely see parasites having a field day with your fish).

I can't say I have a good (or any more than pedestrian for that matter) scientific background but I do read and evaluate against what I have seen and experiment to an extent. I have 8 established marine tanks (9 if you count my pico and the count rises with the feeder tanks - four at the moment) ranging in size from 10 - 145 gallons. I have never used anything artificial to cycle them and I have never used cycle fish. Granted I read a lot, don't overcrowd my tanks (keeping species and their waste in mind, more a learned thing than something you can read) and only keep common hardy sustainable softies for corals (for the most). I have one experimental biorb gallon that has no filtration (the built-in thing is a disaster even for FW) other than LR and what garbage I can't siphon out weekly. It has no sand or bottom substrate and uses a ring of air bubbles for air/CO2 exchange. It successfully houses a mantis (hitch hiker with no where else to go but does well in the tank), sponges, a mammoth curlyque anemone and a flower anemone. I DO change half the water weekly but the LR maintains the environment.

My 145 has a small thin (6") DSB in the 20 gallon sump (something I would not do this way again). It took over two years to see any benefit.

If you decide to play with your thoughts and have the time and energy to do the data recovery, try both methods in a small tanks. At the point you have stability in the dead rock tank, don't put anything in either tank and test at 3 months then come back to this thread and beat me up or become an advocate of the natural LR method.. I love the project idea but don't have the equipment to measure.

 

[Ryan Smith]

Just ordered my rodi unit. It may be overkill, but I found a 7 stage rodi unit with an extra di filter and a bunch of adapters and tubes, automatic shut off, pressure tester, and something that measures ppm for something for $160 new. Yay ebay!

 

[DWhatley]

ppm or TDS? Add a link to your purchase auction so we can see it. Sounds like a good purchase. Now you will have to figure out an errand for your mother while you and your dad connect it up.

 

[Ryan Smith]

Thanks. One sec ill try to find it. My computer is shut off, so Im using my ipod. Well I cant find it now, but anyway the persons story was that they spent $270 for it, but then their parents upgraded their entire house and had a super ro installed for general purposes.

 

[Ryan Smith]

Well, more possibley great news. My moms friend has a friend who is taking apart their aquarium. And they are selling lr for $2 per lb. $8 cheaper per lb than any local store. The only problem is they want to get rid of it quick, and I just ordered my rodi filter, so Im not sure how long till I get water in the tank. Another issue is I hope I will have enough $. I just drained my octo fund on the ro/di filter. I did do a fairly large yard job for my neighbor yesterday, and Im expecting to get about $150 for it, but Ill have to wait and see. They get home in an hour or so. *crosses my fingers*

 

[DWhatley]

You can buy (NEW) a LARGE rubbermaid type bucket, buy some water (unless you can get your RO/DI up and running and water made in enough time OR you can take the water from the existing tank), salt and buy a couple of water circulating pumps that will go into your tank later (still an expense but within the current funding). The big thing will be to keep the water circulating well around the LR, do FW top offs and water changes. If there is no sunlight in the area, it would be good to give it some daylight light exposure. Biggest problem will be were to put it so you don't make a mess and your folks don't get antsy while you continue to make enough to get the tank. Nice to see your mom acclimating to the idea!

 

[Ryan Smith]

Wow this is strange. Off topic but whatever. I was looking at my fish that I have in my feeder tank, and I noticed there tiny plants all over the sides of the tank which I believe are anenomies. Its very strange, as I didnt think they lived in the Chesapeake. They are clear and have tentacles. I just thought they were grass, or just tank waste till I noticed they contract into tiny balls. most are about the size of a pin head and some are as big as 1.5mm or so. Im not going to attempt to take a pic cause they are too small. If anyone wants to help ID them that would be great. Im not concerned though because all Im gonna have is crabs and shrimp in there, but im still curious.