emergency? i dont know.

Discussion in 'Cuttlefish Care' started by rryyddeerr, May 19, 2010.

  1. rryyddeerr

    rryyddeerr Vampyroteuthis Registered

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    i bought a fish yesterday for my "fish" tank. i allowed the water from the bag into the tank. fish seemed fine and all was well in fishy world. that tank is part of the same sump system as my tank for cuttle eggs. its about 100 gallons total.
    stupid mistake, i know. my worry is that there was a small amount of copper in the fish bag. if there was, and it was a standard dose, would two pints of that water contaminate my system enough to harm the eggs?
     
  2. rryyddeerr

    rryyddeerr Vampyroteuthis Registered

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    the store is absolutely fish in clifton, nj
     
  3. Neogonodactylus

    Neogonodactylus Haliphron Atlanticus Staff Member Moderator

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    I would contact the store and try to get a straight answer as to whether there is copper in the water. If so, the eggs may be O.K. for awhile, but I would worry about the young as soon as they hatch.

    Roy
     
  4. rryyddeerr

    rryyddeerr Vampyroteuthis Registered

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    Copper is in water at the store. Did a ten.% change last night. How extreme should I be in addressing this?:goofysca:
     
  5. CaptFish

    CaptFish Colossal Squid Staff Member Moderator

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    From what I have read You should start looking for a new system if you are going to continue keeping Cephs.The copper bonds to the Silicone in the Tank, and according to what I have read it means the tank is no longer acceptable for cephalopods.
     
  6. rryyddeerr

    rryyddeerr Vampyroteuthis Registered

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    thats extreme.
     
  7. snowmaker

    snowmaker Vampyroteuthis Registered

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    rryyddeerr, I have to agree with you.
    I have some professional experience with Silicones. Typically, any substance that can "bond" - (which is unlikely) or be absorbed by Silicone will leach out or outgas over a very short period of time. I would say it is very unlikely that Silicone can absorb any copper in solution. I know it's hard to fathom, but Silicone is a crystaline structure, just like glass.
    I truly believe this to be a myth. I am willing to bet that if I took a tank out of a fish store and that tank's water had been treated with a copper med., after a cleaning and wipe down with an acetic acid (vinegar) solution and refilled, I would be unable to find even a trace amount of copper in the water.
    I would be interested in others comments regarding this. Has anyone actually done any real scientific testing? Is there even a shred of non-anecdotal evidence about reusing tanks that have been used with copper treatments being toxic to fish or inverts? Copper sulfate is found in some of the foods we feed our fish...
     
  8. CaptFish

    CaptFish Colossal Squid Staff Member Moderator

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    I'm positive it's no myth.



     
  9. rryyddeerr

    rryyddeerr Vampyroteuthis Registered

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    i added 1 liter of water containing .1ppm copper. I trust the concentration quote from the store 100%.
    that should bring my, conservatively estimated, 90gal. system to .000292ppm copper before it hits the carbon in my sump.
    from what i have read in the above links, that is not a detrimental ammount.. PLEASE correct me if I am wrong. I really really appreciate the responses.

    thank you very much.
     
  10. Neogonodactylus

    Neogonodactylus Haliphron Atlanticus Staff Member Moderator

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    A quick Google Scholar search typing in "Copper toxicity cephalopod" turned up dozens of papers on the toxicity of copper including several large review papers.

    Over the years I've had several cases of copper poisoning in aquaria and in the end I abandoned each and every system including one where I did exactly what you did pouring shipping water containing copper into a 100 gallon tank. The most extreme example occurred several years ago when we built a new biology building equipped with a running seawater system. I specified no copper, but the contractor installed a small mixing pump that had a bronze bushing. We didn't know it and spent a year with dead urchins, stomatopods and octopus trying to find the cause. We eventually found the elevated copper levels, changed out the pump and still lost animals. We tried flushing the system with acid washes, but it never returned to normal levels and in the end abandoned the system.

    Roy
     
  11. rryyddeerr

    rryyddeerr Vampyroteuthis Registered

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    thanks roy. the problem i encounter when i delve into the review papers and journals in searches is that i honestly dont know what half of it means. they are typically not written to be understood by the layman. also, thanks for relaying your experience. I will try to find homes for the eggs, i guess. they look very close to bursting. so much for being in the ceph keepers club. too much invested in this system to go out and start completely new. pretty damn frustrated, actually.
     
  12. snowmaker

    snowmaker Vampyroteuthis Registered

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    Thanks for the clarification. :smile:

    I also have difficulty interpreting scientific papers on almost any subject. Layman's terms I can handle.
     
  13. cuttlegirl

    cuttlegirl Colossal Squid Supporter Registered

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  14. rryyddeerr

    rryyddeerr Vampyroteuthis Registered

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    thank you very much.
     
  15. SabrinaR

    SabrinaR Larger Pacific Striped Octopus Registered

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    I have been thinking about your problem a lot over the last few days... I cant shake the feeling that what you were told about getting rid of your system is SO super extreme. I never even thought about water coming from pet stores having copper in it. People on this site have all (well not all but a lot) have turned a used system into an octo tank. I feel it would be a very bad assumtion to think that all of those systems have been cared for as we do our octo tanks. Given that, I would think most people wouldnt think that a little water from the fish store would be a problem and would then pour it in anyway, at least a little bit. If those people just got lucky then great. But I think that maybe... not with these eggs mind you... but maybe you could try and save your system. Test the water for copper. Test it over and over and over again. Then let it sit all over again. See if that would help.

    You may have to start all over again, I dont know, but I think its worth a try.

    Now I am not a scientist or an expert on cephs for that matter. But I would at the very least try testing and see. Thats just my personal thoughts on the matter.
     
  16. snowmaker

    snowmaker Vampyroteuthis Registered

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    Good idea,
    I'm not sure of the resolution of our hobby test kits, and their ability to detect minute amounts, but maybe a lab in your area (the type that tests home use water) may be able to test accurately for you. It wouldn't hurt to ask and cost should be relatively low, like < $40.
     
  17. rryyddeerr

    rryyddeerr Vampyroteuthis Registered

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    thanks guys. ill look for someone to test the water and see what i find.
     
  18. SabrinaR

    SabrinaR Larger Pacific Striped Octopus Registered

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    Please do and keep us updated. I would think a lot of people would be interested in what you find.

    One other thing... I personally believe that having multipule systems connected to the same filtration is a bad idea. Like you have just learned, we put things in other tanks that we would never put in our ceph tanks. You might think about splitting up the systems and running them on different filters.

    One other thing... If you cant find a lab to do the tests, I went to hanna instruments and looked for something that tests for copper. They had 3 but I didnt look at them to closely.

    Heres the link http://www.hannainst.com/usa/search_results.cfm
    You might want to call and find out which one you need.
    Thats probably something we should all invest in.
     
  19. rryyddeerr

    rryyddeerr Vampyroteuthis Registered

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    the one designed for aquarium use comes with two ranges, the lowest measuring from 0.00-0.25 in 0.05mg/L increments. if thats accurate, it would be just what we need to test. come to think of it, im going to check the local store and see what they have, and if not that or something equivalent, im ordering the hanna kit. thanks again for helping me think about this.
     
  20. SabrinaR

    SabrinaR Larger Pacific Striped Octopus Registered

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    No problem, and please let us know what you find. I hope everything works out for you and your system.
     

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