Does this sound right to you?

lokk where he says "they would go best in a small nano type tank with one or two rocks in it."
yeah, right teil be per-friggin-ly happy in a tank twith nowhere to hid.

EDIT: someone won the action. someone here who knows their octo struff needs to get in contact with him and tell him how to properly care for his octo.

chris
 
Well I emailed him with a link here AGAIN but still no response. In fact the only responses I did get from him was asking if I still wanted to buy some and that he had 200 of them to sell!
 
Why the outrage?

First of all, the seller is not stupid. He is getting more that $40 each for juvenile octopus that he is collecting as bicatch and basically cost him nothing.

So he miss-identified the species. While they are probably O. mercatoris, almost every collector in Florida gets the identification of octopus wrong. You want an octopus, you get an octopus. I would venture to say that a majority of octopus sold are incorrectly identified starting at the high end where for $400 you can buy a mimic which isn't a mimic but wonderpus.

And as for his description of rearing and maintaining these juveniles, he didn't say anything that wrong. A juvenile O mercatoris can easily survive and thrive in a 5 gallon system and they do quite well with a single rock or shell to hide under. There was also the suggestion that it could be added to a reef tank. Great! Those are basically the conditions from which they were collected - Live Rock.

I've been watching this thread all day trying to figure out why people are so exercised by this posting. So perhaps the guy lifted a picture. We all know that this happens all the time. I find my images scattered all over the new and honestly, if I post a picture I have no expectation that this won't happen. Sure it is illegal and wrong, but it can't be the reason that people are so upset.

Bottom line is that the guy is doing what many LFS do, providing octopus for a high price with incorrect information about what they are and how to best care for them. I don't see general condemnation exploding in their direction.

So why is it that this seller is receiving so much criticism? I really don't get it. If you want to attack someone for really doing harm, go after the expensive retail shops selling Wunderpus (and the occasional mimic) for $400 +. Believe me, fields of cultured live rock in Florida are producing lots of O. mercatoris - far more than will survive to become adults and reproduce. I wish we could say the same about shallow bays in Indonesia that have a few "zebra" octopus that are barely hanging on in polluted, over-fished waters.
 
Neogonodactylus;81868 said:
So perhaps the guy lifted a picture. We all know that this happens all the time. I find my images scattered all over the new and honestly, if I post a picture I have no expectation that this won't happen. Sure it is illegal and wrong, but it can't be the reason that people are so upset.

Sometimes even videos get stolen :biggrin2:

I think its fair to report him to eBay because selling octos is against their rules--but three pages of posts? It would appear most of the repeat contributers are young'uns beating their chests.

Then again, I can't sleep and am just up looking for trouble! :smile:

Dan
 
He contacted me back, and he said that they are dwards, and that he actually has one right now which has been housed for over a year in a 20 gallon. He also said that he has 25 (I think) in a 30 gallon tank. They are most likely juveniles. he said that they get along great, and don't cannibalize. He said that the company doesn't really do anything about them, so he scoops them out, takes them home, and tries to save them. he said he doesn't have 200 right now, but he could easily get that many if someone wanted a large number.
 
Neogonodactylus;81868 said:
And as for his description of rearing and maintaining these juveniles, he didn't say anything that wrong. A juvenile O mercatoris can easily survive and thrive in a 5 gallon system and they do quite well with a single rock or shell to hide under. There was also the suggestion that it could be added to a reef tank. Great! Those are basically the conditions from which they were collected - Live Rock.

Your post touches on something I'm curious about. I know I'm far less qualified than most around here in terms of actual cephalopod husbandry, but I've noticed that there has been a pattern around here lately of taking the "TONMO ceph care guidelines" as canon. I certainly think the collective experience of TONMO ceph keepers should never be dismissed, and some of the reactionary responses is clearly we frequently get people coming in and pushing adversarial positions in an argumentative, rather than dialog, style. But I certainly respect Neogonodactylus's experience as well, for example, and in the other recent thread, Alex pointed out that a different style of keeping bimacs (including, but not limited to, lower temperature) seems to extend their lifetimes. I suspect it may be time to take a step back and ask the question "how much of what we're recommending as known to work is absolute, and how much may be just repeating choices that are known to work, but may not be better than other approaches?" I know when communities reach a certain stage of growth, the wariness of things "not invented here" can lead to a certain kind of close-mindedness and xenophobia.

I'm wary of posting this, because I have a great deal of respect for the collective wisdom of the TONMO ceph keepers, but I also don't want to deny the possibility that we're swinging a bit in the reactionary direction more than balancing between that and open-minded. Of course, I also really understand the frustration that comes up when people aren't following good practices with their ceph tanks, so I certainly don't want to discount the great advice that you all give people who are new to the hobby, I just encourage taking a moment to check perspective... If someone other than Roy had said that any octopus could thrive in a 5 gallon tank, I predict people would have jumped all over them.
 
The collective TONMO recommendations don't necessarily construct a canon--rather a series of observations of keeping octopus in a home setting, cemented together by common sense.

I'm certain its possible to keep a pygmy octopus in a 10 gallon tank, especially under the lab conditions of Dr. Roy. Three complications, though:

1) Most of us want to give it extra room to explore and do our best to modify the animal's behavior to spend more time outside its den (this is the reason we bought it in the first place).

2) Most of the people who come through here and want to keep an octopus in a small tank are coincidentally incompetent.

3) Dr. Roy can tell a pygmy octopus from not-a-pygmy octopus!
 
I'm almost sorry I started this post. I never expected it to draw this much attention-although I'm glad others have contacted him. He responded to my emails and obviously has read this post. I'm wondering if he sent the same email to everyone who contacted him.
I started this post because of the discription that he had in his auction. Everything sounded so factual-I admit I've had my Vigo for several months and I'm still not 100% sure what species he is.
If he knew they were dwarfs,then why does he state that they're Vulgaris? Unless I'm mistaken Vulgaris are definitly not dwarfs.
Dan the marine man,if you're out there,I applaude you for saving the octopus and I hope you'll continue doing so. I just hope that you change your discription. Feel free to email me again-I'm always up for talking to a fellow ceph fanatic
 
I think the biggest problem is that we all come here to study up on them before we get one.On ebay people will impulse buy not knowing what they are getting into!If i came across his post and knew nothing about them from his descreption i would buy these guys for my reef tank and by the time it was all over i would have no cleaning crew and who knows how much people have spent on there fish.I would be very upset if my livestock started to vanish.Who knows what kind of stinging corals and anemones the people buying them have.He also does not state if they are day active or nocturnal.Just my thoughts on it

Dutch
 
The person who is selling these octopus has joined Tonmo (I noticed he registered). So some good may come of this. He may have experience that we don't have and obviously he is trying to find a home for these animals. We may all have something to learn.
 
Big auction

This is the email that i sent to all the people that contacted me through ebay. I thought i would post it for all to see.

In responce to your posted comments:
I dont have 200 but i would get them if i thought a buyer wanted them. That is what you were pretending to be. I have over 25 of them in my 30 gallon tank, 18 of them in a 20 gallon and they all get along. Its a joke to think that someone would put these tiny octos in a 100 gallon tank. You would NEVER see them. You people have no idea how small they are. I am telling people that are looking at my auctions what they can put these octos in now. Not what they should be kept in a year or so. I have given several octos to friends. They were all kept in tanks 20 gallons and smaller. They all did fine. I dont use a lot of rocks in the tank because they hide all day. Who wants to pay $100 on octos they never see? They seam to get along fine in my tanks. When i collect them from my tank to ship, i often find four or five of them hideing under the same rock or shell. The small ones im selling have never ate one of my fish nor my friends fish. I have it stated very clearly in my auction that they do eat live crabs,shrimp,snals and fish. I never told anyone to cram them all in a 6 gollon tank. It does not say that nowhere in my auction. Last time i checked they made nanos in sizes up to 30 gallons. Im not the asshole you guys make me out to be. I saved every one of thoes octos from sure death. If i didnt take the time to collect them from the rock we collect they would be dead in the bottem of a cooler. Even after my effort to save them all, several die on every trip we make. The other guy that collects the rock around here makes no effort to save the octos he get in his rock. Thats how i was gonna get 200. This is what i do to make money, its how i pay my bills. If someone wanted 200 of them and i could make 2g's with little effort. Iwould do it. Does this make me a bad person??I love my octos and i have had one for over a year in a 20 gallon and he does have blue and red rings around his eyes. As far as nameing them goes... Im a scuba diver not a marine biologiest.Its funny how you guys know more obout my octos than i do. I used that pic because my camra is broken and i didnt have any on file. I did not know this was such a big deal. I will take my own pic for the next auction and i will think about rewording it. I have been offering people three octos in my auction so they will save on shipping. Who wants to pay $50 to ship one octo?? I dont think that most of the people who posted these comments even read my auction. The best part is that three of the people who posted this negative shit about me contacted me and payed top doller to get one. Thanks for the free advertising.You guys should be asking me how you can help find these guys homes or how i can help you get all kinds of cool rare stuff. I can also get all kinds of live crabs,shrimp,and snails to feed your octos. Stop being kids and stop posting negative comments about me.
Thanks!!
Danthemarineman
 

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