Could a large squid kill a sperm whale?

I think it is very very unprobable that any giant squid ever killed a sperm whale. Even newborn sperm whales have a weight of about 1t, as large or even larger than any archi. But this small ones have no contact with big squids, because they don´t dive. If they are big enough to dive, they are also many times heavier than even the larges Mesonychoteuthis, and no squid could drown them. Even small female sperm whales are about 15 tons in weight, that means about 30 times the weight of a very large Archi, it´s comparable to a fight between a mouse and cat.
Even very large and aggressive species like Mesonychoteuthis had no chance even against a small sperm whale. They are much smaller, and furthermore they have no true weapons against a giant like a sperm whale. Although the skin of sperm whales is very thin, they have thick layers of blubber which would defend them from serious damage from beaks and hooks. Even if a large squid could manage to bite a whale in its eyes, it would have little effect, because such a wound wouldn´t be deadly for the whale, and sperm whales needs no eyes (as several very healthy but also very blind specimens have shown) for orientation. Strangulation seems also unprobably, because sperm whales have most oxygen in their blood and inner organs, and not in their lungs, furthermore their bodies are built to withstand enormous pressure, so a squid had really no possibility to kill a squid.
But I still ask me which ass tells stories about squids which kill right whales for sport...
 
The UnMuseum - The Giant Squid
"Giant Squid have been seen in battle with adult whales too. In 1965, a Soviet whaler watched a battle between a squid and a 40 ton sperm whale. In this case neither were victorious. The strangled whale was found floating in the sea with the squid's tentacles wrapped around the whale's throat. The squid's severed head was found in the whale's stomach"

I think this was the story was mentioned earlier,
I know of sperm whales to be about 3m in height around the "throat region" and a large architeuthis would have tentacles that are about 10metres long. Theoretically, the architeuthis could only get one coil around the whale's head! Let us compare this to some other animals- a burmese python (13ft) failed to asphyxiate a 6ft gator and had to swallow it alive! The gator was just over double the constrictor's girth.

From my understanding of reptiles, a snake with 3 or 4 coils around a crocodillian isnt enough to kill him (unless in water- then the croc may be drowned). So in this situation, I find it extremely difficult to believe an architeuthis was actually strong enough that it was able to strangle the whale! Also, aren't suckers powered by muscles? Therefore after death- should "the suckers lose suction"? I find this story incredibly difficult to believe, especially those thin long tentacles strangling a whale with a single coil, whilst constrictors cant with just 3 or 4!

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Steve, you responded to my email the other day saying the architeuthis beaks found in physeter bellies are no larger than the 13m giant squids that you have examined, shouldn't this indicate that this is an ongoing cycle, that sperm whales are not reluctant in feeding on even the largest squids- this would be a common act of predation and therefore the chances of a sperm whale being killed a giant squid would be no more likely like any large predator taking slightly smaller prey (considering that sperm whales do not take prey larger than itself).
 
Wait..if a large squid exists...and the whales are not eating them, which means no beaks. And it too us so darn long to find Messie and Archie (even with a ample supply of beaks)...this means that there could be bigger things out there, no?
 
legendarycroc;77860 said:
... and therefore the chances of a sperm whale being killed a giant squid would be no more likely like any large predator taking slightly smaller prey (considering that sperm whales do not take prey larger than itself).

Yep, I think we are all pretty much in agreement that no squid we know of would be able to kill a sperm whale or even struggle with it in any meaningful way. In any physical dimension but length, the giant squid (or colossal, for that matter) is significantly smaller.
There is, of course, the possibility (and secret hope of many, no doubt :wink:) that there is something bigger out there that we don't know about yet, because the whales and other predators we rely on for much of our information don't eat it... :cyclops:
 
Yep, I think we are all pretty much in agreement that no squid we know of would be able to kill a sperm whale or even struggle with it in any meaningful way.
Hi! :smile:

Referencing that freaky news story about the book about real, scary monsters in the sea, is there a chance that a giant squid could act as a kind of parasite to a whale? If they were to affix to the whale, couldn't they, in theory, kind of feed off the whale, while going along for the ride? So, maybe not "strangle" but "slowly feed on and overcome"? What's a whale gonna do about it?

Feel free to ignore me. :rolleyes:
 
And we also have to presume that all dead bodies of those animals sink as we would've found them if they float.


Of course, all those "Kraken" stories might be real and that poeple have spotted it...
 
tonmo;77882 said:
Hi! :smile:

Referencing that freaky news story about the book about real, scary monsters in the sea, is there a chance that a giant squid could act as a kind of parasite to a whale? If they were to affix to the whale, couldn't they, in theory, kind of feed off the whale, while going along for the ride? So, maybe not "strangle" but "slowly feed on and overcome"? What's a whale gonna do about it?

Feel free to ignore me. :rolleyes:

Hmmm, well there are plenty of animals that will take a chunk out of a marine mammal, cookie cutter sharks come to mind. But I don't know if the squid would actually go along for a ride, that would be quite a ride...
http://www.amonline.net.au/fishes/fishfacts/fish/llacepedei7.htm
 
There is, of course, the possibility (and secret hope of many, no doubt ) that there is something bigger out there that we don't know about yet, because the whales and other predators we rely on for much of our information don't eat it...

I personally do not believe that the environment as it is could sustain cephalopods much larger than mesonychoteuthis or architeuthis (for example- the Krakens the "preyed" upon 18th century ships). Why? If such a larger animal existed on extreme depth >3000m, would the animal not need a such amount of food supply to sustain that size? The way I understand it is that the deeper the water- the less and smaller the "moving food supply" is... it would then mean that "the kraken" must live in shallowers waters (~1000-3000m?), and this is within the range of sperm whales as well as other large squids- which would mean it would only be a matter of time until we see sucker marks on sperm whales that are double the size of architeuthis' :wink:

Referencing that freaky news story about the book about real, scary monsters in the sea, is there a chance that a giant squid could act as a kind of parasite to a whale? If they were to affix to the whale, couldn't they, in theory, kind of feed off the whale, while going along for the ride? So, maybe not "strangle" but "slowly feed on and overcome"? What's a whale gonna do about it?

As a parasite, should the squid not have to "hang on" to its company? I personally have not seen anything close to a sperm whale (stranded or not- the closest in size/figure would probably be a common carp) but, if this theory is true, we should find sucker marks on not only the anterior-head area of the animal, but also closer to the posterior or even natal areas (where most other parasites "hang"). Most accounts of sucker marks on whales are said to be near the head of the animal- which would be a clear indicator of some predation activity, not parasitic.

Plus, if another whale sees a parasite this large, it would be a sensationable meal! I would think architeuthis is too big to be a parasite. As well... sperm whales have to return to the surface every hour or so; there have never been reports of "squids hanging on to sperm whales"- so its either that these animals hang on and ditch.. or they dont do it at all! The ditching theory- I would think is also invalid because an hour isnt so long a time that they could get much profits from. Sperm whales hunt using echolocation- they would of already sensed the squid before the squid "touches down" on the whale, why would a sperm whale let the squid become its parasite unless it got something in return (other then a future meal :wink: ). Lastly, architeuthis is a large part of the whale's diet (70% for sperm whales in Antarctic?), most parasites are not inevitable prey items to their host- if so they wouldnt stick around!

Of course, all those "Kraken" stories might be real and that poeple have spotted it...

The world needs some mystery doesnt it? There is a high possibility that a man saw an oarfish breach near a ship and assumed there was a "kraken" with a 30ft tentacle near the ship and every onboard scrambles to get the h3ll out of there! :biggrin2:
 
legendarycroc;77892 said:
If such a larger animal existed on extreme depth >3000m, would the animal not need a such amount of food supply to sustain that size? The way I understand it is that the deeper the water- the less and smaller the "moving food supply" is... it would then mean that "the kraken" must live in shallowers waters (~1000-3000m?), and this is within the range of sperm whales as well as other large squids- which would mean it would only be a matter of time until we see sucker marks on sperm whales that are double the size of architeuthis' :wink:

Unless (playing complete and total devil's advocate here :wink:) the 'kraken' were foraging in any waters below, say, 1000m but never above (so we'd be unlikely to have encountered it), and taking large prey in the shallower ranges (1000-2000m). Of course, the prey corpses would have to sink, and so would all traces of the 'kraken' after death. But if no sperm whale ever survived such an encounter, that could explain why we never see sucker marks of the larger size... :roll:
Actually, as far as we know, even the giant and colossal squids take prey substantially smaller than they are (Architeuthis seems to feed mostly on squid of about 40-50 cm total length, Mesonychoteuthis on fish up to about 2m), in the adult stages anyway. So unless there were something truly *enormous* down there, a whale is still likely to be too big to be a food item, plus I'm not sure mammals would be good squid food, since squid don't digest lipids well and marine mammals generally have a lot of blubber.
And then, as you say, squid require a large amount of food, so our hypothetical 'kraken' would have to be feeding pretty much constantly on its smallish prey, and you make a good point that food is scarce down there. But hey, a girl can dream... :roll:

Tony, the parasite idea is interesting. I'd probably raise the blubber point again though... unless the squid is feeding on scraps the whale drops during feeding (though they seem to be pretty tidy; squid in the stomach are often whole), the only whale tissue it would have access to without burrowing is the blubber.


legendarycroc;77892 said:
Lastly, Architeuthis is a large part of the whale's diet (70% for sperm whales in Antarctic?)

I think you're thinking of the colossal squid - according to Clarke (1980) Mesonychoteuthis is thought to make up about 77% of the sperm whale's diet in the Antarctic. Archi is sub-Antarctic to sub-tropical in distribution, which is probably why it makes up less than 1% of the beaks examined in Clarke's data. But we should get Felipe to weigh in on what proportion of the sperm whale's diet Archi comprises in warmer waters!

Clarke, M.R. 1980. Cephalopoda in the diet of sperm whales of the southern hemisphere and their bearing on sperm whale biology. Discovery Reports 37: 324 pp.
 
chrono_war01;77884 said:
And we also have to presume that all dead bodies of those animals sink as we would've found them if they float.

They All float down here. When your down here with us, you'll float too!
 
But if no sperm whale ever survived such an encounter, that could explain why we never see sucker marks of the larger size...

:roflmao: I just gotta laugh at that. The whole thought of a kraken sized animal is really a funny thought! But no predatory animals have 100% success rate- and was the reason I chose to state this:
"which would mean it would only be a matter of time until we see sucker marks on sperm whales that are double the size of architeuthis' "

Such a large animal would have to prey on extremely large animals- architeuthis, galiteuthis, mesonychoteuthis, physeter could all be on the menu. But I think this thread is getting too "fantasy" for my likings...

I think you're thinking of the colossal squid - according to Clarke (1980) Mesonychoteuthis is thought to make up about 77% of the sperm whale's diet in the Antarctic. Archi is sub-Antarctic to sub-tropical in distribution, which is probably why it makes up less than 1% of the beaks examined in Clarke's data. But we should get Felipe to weigh in on what proportion of the sperm whale's diet Archi comprises in warmer waters!

Yes, I was referring to the colossal squid.
I had just done some calculations (driven by curiousity) based on the beak lengths of mesonychoteuthis specimens compared to their mantle length. It appears that the growth of beak length is not proportional to actual body length, and it appears as if the beak's grow slows as the animal continues growth. Is this of some parity to data you may of gathered, if so why? Would the size of prey proportional its its [the squid's] body size be a contributing factor? Using some very basical mathematics, with ML 1.05 (LRL22mm) ML 2.5 (LRL37mm) and (LRL48mm)- it appears that on a linear chart- a mesonychoteuthis could reach 4.6m in mantle length (I could share my calculations if you want)
 
Yes, we are getting a little far-fetched. :wink:

So far the LRL-ML ratio does seem to be linear in those species of squid for which these data have been collected/analyzed. For some species, the equation is even sex-specific (paper on this coming out soon... :wink:). Meso has been estimated by some authors (e.g. Nesis 1987) to attain mantle lengths of about 4m, though others (e.g. Klumov & Yukhov 1975) stick to a more conservative estimate of about 2.5m (although we know our 2.5m (ML) female wasn't mature yet).

Klumov, S.K.; Yukhov, V.L. 1975. Mesonychoteuthis hamiltoni Robson, 1925 (Cephalopoda, Oegopsida) and its significance to feeding of sperm whales in Antarctic waters. Antarktika, (14), p. 159–189.

Nesis, K.N. 1987. Cephalopods of the world (English translation). Tropical Fish Hobbyist (T.F.H.) publications, Neptune City. 352 pp.
 

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