Clarence - O. briareus

Quantity of food wanted, is best for them and is a healthy amount are all separate questions and almost every keeper has a different answer on how to to about feeding them.

I'll start with how we determine how much and when to feed and then give a couple other opinions by successful keepers.

We feed our late juvenile/adult octos 6 days a week, one meal a day in the largest size they will fully eat (hatchlings and young juveniles are fed daily but still only once, twice or more may be better for hatchlings). This takes a little experimentation. IME, they will not over eat at a single sitting and any uneaten food should be removed when no longer held captive in their webbing (sometimes you may have to fight to retrieve empty shells :biggrin2:). The fast day comes from a combination of prior seahorse keeping, comments by Roy on reducing food intake (or possibly frequency) to extend life expectency and the eating habits of our first few octopuses. Quantity will vary from octopus to octopus and not necessarily by species. You may find, particularly as they near senesence, that you need to decrease food size or feed every other day if food is not accepted on a regular basis (not a single incident). Once they know their feeding time, the larger animals are smart enough to try to get your attention if you are late or if they are still hungry. Establishing a feeding corner or spot is good for this mutual understanding. LittleBit and Octavia want to eat every day and neither was/is happy with the fast day (often broken and a small portion of something provided usually followed by the human comment, "but she was LOOKING at me!"). Octane (same species as Octavia but male) would eat a large table shrimp 4 times a week but then fast on his own with some variation but roughly every 3rd or 4th day. He had no interest in food on his self imposed fast days but would still be active and interact. I find that starting with something about the volume of the eye (so something long and skinny would be bigger than a chunk of something more solid - krill vs piece of table shrimp) while they are small seems to be a good starting place. You should see 30-60 minutes of eating time where it is obviously concentrating on its food and not moving about the tank. Others will suggest mantle size (more in length than in volume I think). Once he is taking food regularly (PLEASE REREAD MY POST AT #2), you can offer a second piece after the first is taken (even if not yet eaten) to see if there is an interest. Alternately, you might start giving increasingly larger amounts until the food is not consumed and then scale back slightly (we use both approaches depending on the animal). If you see your snail and/or hermit clean-up crew disappearing, you may want to increase the amount you feed. I have found that snails and hermits are often left alone once octos are fully acclimated and accustomed to the food slave providing an easy meal. The one exception to this was our vulgaris. LittleBit would eat anything she could find but did not want seconds at feeding time.

Roy and Joe-Ceph (correct me if I misstate please) feed every 2 to 3 days (this is specific to their cold water bimaculoides but the concept is thought to be beneficial to all octos and I believe CaptFish takes a similar but modified approach with his warm water animals) and allow the animals to have more food than they will consume but remove the uneaten (alive or dead) after a period of time (I am thinking an hour but would prefer you verify with them if they don't post a confirmation).

A third approach that is useful for newly introduced animals that are not yet eating but has seen success for the life of the animal is to leave a quantity of "extra" live food in the tank at all times, offering a regular meal but leaving food to hunt if the animal is hungry. I believe Carol uses pretty much this approach with crabs.

Keeping a supply of small crustaceans (pods) in the tank seems to be a good idea and gives them something to hunt. We feed our tanks Cyclop-eze (primarily for the serpent stars, mushrooms, polyps and gorgonians) and see that the octos are eating it (color of their elimination) but don't know if they eat it directly (we know this is the case for the O. mercatoris dwarf) or if they eat it indirectly through the pods.

I have seemingly noticed but not documented (the antecdotal "thought" may be totally invalid) that females may brood quicker if well satiated and it might be better to keep them a bit hungry and possibly disrupt the tank purposfully once they are adult/late juveniles. I wish we could test the theory as it might help keep females alive longer in aquariums but it may be only wishful thinking that pushes this "observation". It is also menatlly very difficult NOT to offer food when they are making a show of bring hungry.
 
this is very useful information! once again i thank you for being such a big help to me! i have fed "clarence" ( my girlfriend named him :P ) 3 of these little krill. during the day time he is unseen. but everytime i turn off the hood light , and turn on the red light he appears in the bottom right corner of the tank ( his new feeding corner ) i will post a picture of it shortly. no offense to anyone on these forums but i liked the way you feed your octos the best. since he has been coming out at the same spot i will try to feed him every night except for sundays( i work late anyway ) . i get what your saying about females. after i fed him the first krill he monched on it for a while, and then suddenly got up and started flying around the tank until i fed him ... i couldnt resist haha! im so pleased with his interaction so soon!
 
here is my 65/70 gallon tank ( not quite sure ) i only have a red light on one side ... oh well thats where he hangs out anyway :P


...here is clarence monching on his krill. its hard to see but i didnt take it with a flash on because i did not want to interrupt his food session
 

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Liking, what is best practice and what is practicle all come together at some point but there are no fixed rules (execpt water quality and keeping the tank covered). These are still very much experimental home kept animals so reasonable trial and error (that is trying things that are not well established as not working ... there are a few others) is encouraged as long as the results (good or bad) are shared for other keepers.

If your animal is typical of what I have experienced, you will see him disappear for a period of time very soon (roughly 1 to 5 days from now). This will instill panic in most keepers and I never get over it because, on occasion, they don't make it the full two weeks I call true acclimation time. SueAndHerZoo is going through this now and has not seen her animal in over a week.

In addition to the acclimation I mentioned, I suspect something very odd about their memory. Researchers have fits with them because they get creative or stuborn. I have noticed that they will often seem to "learn" something and then forget it for roughly 3 days and then "remember" it after that, almost like it takes time to be implanted into long term memory (keep in mind this is fully layman thinking as I am a computer programmer, not a biologist). I have seen this mostly with interaction and, again, have not devised an at home experiment to coax out more understanding of how this might work (or completely elminate the thought). With Octavia, she was overly interactive immediately (during the 2 week period where they usually just disappear). I knew it would not last and she did become very shy but she has been slowly (much more normal) coming to my hand and tonight played for a good 20 minutes like in the video. So I am delighted she wants to interact but am worrying again that this may be a sign the she will brood soon :roll:
 
I almost never intentionally use a flash (sometimes I use the wrong setting and it is not automatically turned off). Tripods are well worth having for both low light stills as well as video. Clarence will start coming out with the regular lights on eventually (if you eat in front of the tank, supper time is often a great viewing time). That being said, a few keepers have reported their octos really don't mind it or adjust quickly. Do note that they notice a camera as a "thing" and it is a good idea to have it in view as often as possible so that it is a familiar object.
 
exactly! your way sounded the most logical to me, i mean if i was an octo i would wanna eat 6 days a weeek too ahhah. thats funny and kinda dorky that they learn like that ... hes brand new to my tank but he has already shown himself more and more. the camera idea is a good one, i forgot that he has been probably watching me the whole time, ill definitley have my camera around him more often! do they " brood " by themselves ? females have infertile eggs no matter what?
 
Sadly, yes a female will lay eggs and brood even if she has not mated. I've only kept one pair of O.briareus where I knew the age (born in my tank) and the female (Mama Cass) showed obvious signs of eggs (enlarged mantle) right at 9 months. LittleBit probably was very close to the same age but she was a different species (vulgaris) and could have been slightly older.

As a curious asside, infertile vulgaris eggs do not seem to deteriorate easily. With all my other females as well as those journaled, infertile eggs have just disappeared in the dens. I was curious if they were eaten or just dissolved. I knew LittleBit's eggs were not fertile since I received her before she was sexually mature (and would not have mated - they can mate and hold sperm for an estimated 4 months) so I pulled the eggs immediately partially in hopes that she would not continue to brood (they stop eating and begin living off their bodies). I had read it might be possible to slightly extend their lives this way but was not successful in disrupting the brood behavior. The curious part is that the eggs are still sitting in a container of saltwater and look pretty much like they did when she laid them. This suggests that either the female octopus or the clean-up crew eat infertile eggs.
 
mhm thats pretty interesting, after they lay eggs do they feel like they have fulfilled their lives or something? ( stop eating etc. )? i guess the next question is when and how can i tell what sex they are?
 
Here is a thread in our biology section about sexing your octopus :biggrin2:

The not eating part of brooding/senescence (both male and female stop eating at the end of their lives) is somewhat of a mystery. We know there is a gland (called the optic gland) that controls sexual maturation. The studies done (as couple of them but not extensive) found that removing this gland before sexual maturity starts will keep the animals from developing (but not growing) and may extend their lives up to twice the normal lifetime (12-18 months in most species, slightly less for warm water dwarfs and slightly more for cold water animals. The GPO is estimated at 4 years). Interestingly, placing the gland (or a piece of it) back into the animal will initiate sexual maturity. Two unanswered questions are, "Why do they stop eating?" and "If they ate, would they live longer?". Females that continue to eat during part of the brooding do seem to live a few weeks longer than those who don't but, as with most our hobby information, the evidence is antecdotal and there is no clue why some will and most don't eat. In either case death is shortly after the hatching but it is rare for them die before the eggs mature (or in the case of infertile eggs before the eggs would have matured.

IME, males live slighly longer (in the 2 month range) than females. Mating has little to no effect on the timing (probably none at all on males, maybe a slight impact on females). We know of only one species (a dwarf from Panama/Nicaragua, O chierchiae, there is the possibility of others) that lays multiple clutches of eggs. It is unclear if the eggs are all of one batch, one fertilzation or actually produced new. Roy and Thales have had the opportunity to do some preliminary study of the animal but they are difficult to acquire (also see Thale's article in Advanced Aquarist.
 
Great thread. I used to feed my vulgaris with whole frozen silverside and he loved it. I would put the silverside on a feeding stick and end up playing tug of war with him lol. Many time he rearranged my tank because of it. At the end of his life (I got him when he was already an adult), he stopped eating and hid for days at a time, and all I saw was mantles come out of the bottom of my live rocks and try to catch the fishes that were getting close to his den. At first I thought that he escaped because my tank was open but I was relief to see his arms coming from the rocks. Come to think about it, he never really tried to escape. Many times he came out and get close to the water line but never past it. My new tank is fully covered as I do not want to try my luck. I miss the little fella.
 
its pretty interesting! they actually removed the gland? and doubled the life span? they usually live about 2 years amirite? in that case im really hoping clarence turns out to be a guy, ill check out that sexing thread!

im pretty sure i saw silverside fish when i went to the fish market, arent they about the size of a finger more or less? its funny you say you played tug of war , ive been doing that with mine hahah. my tank is sealed but ive been watching him, and he doesnt really show interest in leaving either.. he never passes the water line with his tentacles :smoke:
 
The third arm to the right (clockwise as you orient your eyes to the octopuses) will USUALLY be curled in an identifiable manner. He can use it normally and there is no special restriction of movement. The tip will not have suckers but on briareus this is very hard to see. A close look will also expose the spermataphore channel but I have rarely seen it with my eyes (more often in photos).

Fish are not the best idea. You can use it as snack but keep in mind that their brain encircles their esophagus and anything that does not pass can cause damage so fish bones have potential for being a problem (likely why we sometimes see the stomachs eaten but the rest of the fish left uneaten when housing with fish - not a good idea).

Sadly the lifespan of most of the ones we keep is 12 -18 months and you must keep in mind that you will not begin housing the animal until it is several months old. Generally speaking the smaller and warm water animals live a few months less than the older. O. bimaculoides (coldwater animal kept below 65 degrees) has been the longest lived on TONMO and Roy has had one to live close to three years, most keepers see the 1 year to 18 month limit - guestimated 12 months being the closest norm.
 
Dang ! What a short lifespan :frown: I don't need to feed him the fish anyway , hes really enjoying the krill on a stick !! This is off topic , but I recently noticed a few of my live rock with aiptasia. I've been researching and I've decided I do Not want to deal with chemicals... I would rather buy a bunch of peppermint shrimp or that one coral that eats it . Since Clarence is small would bigger shrimp survive ? & have you had any personal solutions ??
 
I would suggest a pair of peps. I have read that some don't eat the darn things but the ones I have get from the keys definitely do. They will never eliminate them entirely but do a good job of keeping them under control, especially the very small ones (I have seen them ignore the large aiptasia). Peps can be very aggressive and can pack together and attack small animals or other shrimp but I have never had a problem with 2 at a time.

If you add a few peps to the tank, the trick will be introducing them without Clarence taking note. Peppermint shrimp are curious and will creep up to an octo looking for scraps. If they get too curious with the wrong octo, they become the snack. We thought we were going to lose one to Octavia at supper last night as the shrimp kept edging closer and closer to her den opening. It stopped about 1/2 inch away but Octavia just ignored it and continued with her crab leg supper. Most of my peps have survived several octos but eventually I have to order more. They are best introduced before the octopus but that is not always possible. I would introduce them when Clarence is sleeping and put them in as slowly and motionlessly as you can manage.

There are mixed feelings about using Berghia for aiptasia control. Aiptasia is the only thing the nudi eats so it is important to decide if it is acceptable to buy one knowing it will eventually starve. The good news is people are now tank raising them for aiptasia control and reducing the impact on the wild animals. If you decide to try this method, please look for a tank bred and raised animal. Also note that it may become immediate octo food since it has no defense or escape mechinism. I don't know if octos find nudibranchs appetizing but they often eat snails and I would assume nudibranchs to be considered food.

You will want to offer a change of diet a couple of days a week but for now he recognizes this food and is getting used to you so consistency is best. Once he is clearly established, start trying new things. I would start with some form of crab or crab meat. Do note that Carol wrote a humerous post yesterday about Squid being unhappy with his second offering of scallop.
 

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