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Hi Armstrong,
I think there are many aspects of this planned project that are making a few of us squirm uncomfortably. The first ones that come to mind are the associated ethical problems. As far as I understand this, your friend is willing to have at least two octopuses shipped to her, which she plans to study for a short period of time. Depending on how short the period of time is, she may not even see the octopuses, as they will be stressed and hiding after their trip. As TPG observed, their behavior following transport is unlikely to be anything approaching natural. Then, after this short period of study, the octopuses will be moved to some other location, whether that be donated to a local aquarium, shipped back (more stress) (and for resale?!), returned to the live fish supplier (horror), or, most unlikely, released. This amount of disruption within the (short) life of an animal which, as you say, is intelligent and amazing, seems extremely unfair to the animal. Most octo keepers order a young octopus and try to offer it the best quality habitat possible over the course of its life, caring for it, keeping it busy (and marveling the whole way at its personality) and safe, to try to compensate for the inherent fact that this octopus, living its life in captivity, will never have a 'natural' life or, most likely, any surviving offspring. The idea that anyone, whether using an ideal and well-prepared setup or not, and no matter how book-smart and well-read on cephs (in fact, this alone should be enough to dissuade you), would keep octopuses short-term for the purpose of conducting experiments or even just observations that, as you said, have already been conducted and written about by others (but simply not experienced first-hand by your friend), is frankly upsetting. The lives of octopuses are just too short and precious to jeopardize by shipping them to a temporary home for a short period, to undergo some observations and then meet an unknown fate. Would your friend adopt a puppy for a few days to observe its behavior, then take it to the Humane Society? The net gain from this project/experiment (as you have currently explained it to us - sorry if I have missed anything or misunderstood) does not to justify the stress and jeopardy it will bring to the octopuses involved, if your friend is not prepared to give them a good and lasting home.

Sorry. :sad:
 
Tintenfisch said:
Hi Armstrong,
I think there are many aspects of this planned project that are making a few of us squirm uncomfortably. The first ones that come to mind are the associated ethical problems. As far as I understand this, your friend is willing to have at least two octopuses shipped to her, which she plans to study for a short period of time. Depending on how short the period of time is, she may not even see the octopuses, as they will be stressed and hiding after their trip. As TPG observed, their behavior following transport is unlikely to be anything approaching natural. Then, after this short period of study, the octopuses will be moved to some other location, whether that be donated to a local aquarium, shipped back (more stress) (and for resale?!), returned to the live fish supplier (horror), or, most unlikely, released. This amount of disruption within the (short) life of an animal which, as you say, is intelligent and amazing, seems extremely unfair to the animal. Most octo keepers order a young octopus and try to offer it the best quality habitat possible over the course of its life, caring for it, keeping it busy (and marveling the whole way at its personality) and safe, to try to compensate for the inherent fact that this octopus, living its life in captivity, will never have a 'natural' life or, most likely, any surviving offspring. The idea that anyone, whether using an ideal and well-prepared setup or not, and no matter how book-smart and well-read on cephs (in fact, this alone should be enough to dissuade you), would keep octopuses short-term for the purpose of conducting experiments or even just observations that, as you said, have already been conducted and written about by others (but simply not experienced first-hand by your friend), is frankly upsetting. The lives of octopuses are just too short and precious to jeopardize by shipping them to a temporary home for a short period, to undergo some observations and then meet an unknown fate. Would your friend adopt a puppy for a few days to observe its behavior, then take it to the Humane Society? The net gain from this project/experiment (as you have currently explained it to us - sorry if I have missed anything or misunderstood) does not to justify the stress and jeopardy it will bring to the octopuses involved, if your friend is not prepared to give them a good and lasting home.

Sorry. :sad:

Well, first of all...I never said that my friend planned to obtain 2 octopuses. Just because she has two cycled tanks doesn't mean she wants two octopuses...nor would I let her. The responsibility would be too high for that optinion. Second, the whole idea of getting an animal shipped to her, and then shipped back was JUST a small idea. After thinking over it, it's not a great one because originally...if we had to ship the octopus back to the source we got it from, the shipping would msot likely be of long distance such as California. I live on the opposite coast and having an octo travel that long is tedius in terms of stress that they undergo. Im 100% aware of stress conditions, boredom and death related to the cause. Iv actually made a compilation related on all levels of keeping them in captivity and avoiding stress conditions and any other condition which can randomly occur for a new pet keepers. It's not easy to persuade people on here to accept me as a well-knowledged octopus individual because the amount of posts and words I can write as well as you...is unlimited. It's easier in person, however...im going off topic again, lol.

The point is is that the ideas were just ideas. Like I said twice before, I emailed my local aquarium to see if there are any opportunities and possibilities of studying the octo their at it's own tank. And im still waiting for a response, but for now...that seems like the best option available. The options I thought up of before were not ever intentionally or accidentally meaning to harm an octopus or keep it from being un-safe. Having an octo shipped to us and then shipping out again to an UNKNOWN SOURCE sounds a little nasty. That was never on my mind because I wouldn't ever release an octo back to an unknown source were it could possibly be mis-handled OR killed. My love for octopuses is unlimited and it takes the security guards to make me leave the aquarium everytime I go there and make the best of it. Also, iv studied octopus captivity keeping for almost a year and half now and I still don't plan to purchase an octo and raise it. I feel the necessity of studying more before reaching that step. I just hope no one else assumes or underestimates me of any octo knowledge because iv been to these forums for a while now and im sure some people know me from the past. Im not in the dark nor am I in the dark when it comes to learning about cephalopods. Harming them is the last thing on my mind.
 
Hey, here's an idea--

Lets leave the science to scientists!

Otherwise I have some sludge in my refrigerator that I should be able to run at Fermi Lab.

Dan
 
DHyslop said:
Hey, here's an idea--

Lets leave the science to scientists!

Otherwise I have some sludge in my refrigerator that I should be able to run at Fermi Lab.

Dan

Dude, this discussion is serious and your not helping out.
 
Armstrong said:
Dude, this discussion is serious and your not helping out.


Dude, this discussion is serious. I'd call that the quote of the week.

I did not speak in jest. When academic-kinds use terms like "study" and "research" they have a bit different meaning than when others use them. They imply hypothesis testing, professional investigations leading to peer-reviewed publication. That last part is most important: the whole point of it is for other researchers to be able to read and benefit.

Any investigations not leading to such publications do not benefit mankind and aren't scientifically valuable. That sort of study is not the realm of science, but that of entertainment. It is equivalent to building a model airplane or otherwise pleasuring oneself. Otherwise pleasuring yourself includes keeping an animal as a pet because you're interested in it. You said yourself she wants to keep an octopus because "she wants to learn something new about it." Hey, guess what? That's the reason I want to keep an octopus.

What your friend is intending is a step below, however. She wants to have her cake and eat it, too: She wants to keep a pet octopus for a little while without boning up for a system capable of keeping it in the long term. You and her are rationalizing this complete disregard for the animal by pretending you're doing some sort of valuable research, when in the end you're just doing something that you enjoy; and something that your parents pat you on the back for because you're not playing video games or smoking pot all day like a lot of teenagers.

Now that I've said that, I'm going to apologize. I've complained when others have crucified younger members for various reasons, and this is the same thing. You both are obviously reasonably intelligent and investigative for your age, which is a great thing. You are very articulate and are willing to type in full and complete sentences!!!!!

I'm sure both of you are well capable of keeping a saltwater tank and an octopus. That really is a complement based on some of the yahoos who come through here. If you do it though you need to do it with the best interest of the animal in mind. The bottom line is that there are a lot of people who want an octo but can't afford to keep one and your reasons for wanting one aren't any more noble than theirs.

Dan
 
DHyslop said:
Dude, this discussion is serious. I'd call that the quote of the week.

I did not speak in jest. When academic-kinds use terms like "study" and "research" they have a bit different meaning than when others use them. They imply hypothesis testing, professional investigations leading to peer-reviewed publication. That last part is most important: the whole point of it is for other researchers to be able to read and benefit.

Any investigations not leading to such publications do not benefit mankind and aren't scientifically valuable. That sort of study is not the realm of science, but that of entertainment. It is equivalent to building a model airplane or otherwise pleasuring oneself. Otherwise pleasuring yourself includes keeping an animal as a pet because you're interested in it. You said yourself she wants to keep an octopus because "she wants to learn something new about it." Hey, guess what? That's the reason I want to keep an octopus.

What your friend is intending is a step below, however. She wants to have her cake and eat it, too: She wants to keep a pet octopus for a little while without boning up for a system capable of keeping it in the long term. You and her are rationalizing this complete disregard for the animal by pretending you're doing some sort of valuable research, when in the end you're just doing something that you enjoy; and something that your parents pat you on the back for because you're not playing video games or smoking pot all day like a lot of teenagers.

Now that I've said that, I'm going to apologize. I've complained when others have crucified younger members for various reasons, and this is the same thing. You both are obviously reasonably intelligent and investigative for your age, which is a great thing. You are very articulate and are willing to type in full and complete sentences!!!!!

I'm sure both of you are well capable of keeping a saltwater tank and an octopus. That really is a complement based on some of the yahoos who come through here. If you do it though you need to do it with the best interest of the animal in mind. The bottom line is that there are a lot of people who want an octo but can't afford to keep one and your reasons for wanting one aren't any more noble than theirs.

Dan

Ok, so...your telling me that the research comments weere based on actual experience with marine animals right? Iv already stated that my friend is no dummy...she's not lost in the dark and isn't ever planning on studying the octopus for a thrill ride and entertainment. This type of mental motivation seems to be quite common on those who DO play video games and smoke pot which is clearly out of line in this type of discussion...to be precise incase you were wondering, none of our parents are interesting in octopus and none of us have the mental motivation to keep an octo for study just to get a thrill, seek entertainment AND have our parents pat us on the back. We don't give a crap for any of that. And I really don't want anymore people assuming that im the one who's come up with the idea of getting an octo in the first place. Im not the one keeping it, she is. Im not the one studying it, she will be. And again, she isn't lost. Like iv stated, she's taken marine bio in high school...the trust me, marine bio isn't ANY plain old elective class. This class is advanced, and required that students actually travel to islands, and beaches...financially supported of course, and study marine bio in person with experience and with limited thrill-seekers. And like iv stated, she has a train of personnel (personnel: People she knows)...who studied MARINE BIOLOGY for real. Some of them actually own marine pets, some dont and currently reside at a university or school which teaches marine biology. She is so not in the dark and I can't really say it anymore without killing it. Im sure you and other members who are reading my posts have already seen me state this and it doesnt seem like your taking my statements into up-most consideration cuz it sounds like you think that she isn't ready to something bizarre such as keeping an octopus in a tank for a few days and release it in safety.

I think her idea was excellent. Considering that she doesn't have the MOST octo-knowledge on the planet, considering that she hasent had any experience in person with an octopus and considering that she hasen't had professional and PROPER education in marine biology related to a college/university, her idea seems to be scaled-down, non-bizzare and caring and trusting. And thats why im supporting her on this. Thats ALSO why I have taken consideration to seek any help, ideas OR suggestions that any of you have. Assuming and stated that we are not suitable for mantaining an octo for a few days and releasing it safely is just an assumption, and not an idea or suggestion. Im not an idiot, however...its perfectly assumptional WHY some members clearly are crazy about their safety and make assumptions based on posts which have little or specific information that people expect to see. It's because numerous, numerous members and newbies constantly go to this board and ask random questions out of the blue which require research, and study before actually doing what the member has asked. And that's fine, except...I didn't expect all of this to happen to me. Iv been to these forums for a while and I thought members knew me here. But hey, I cant expect everything can I?

The point is, is that my friend is perfectly NOT in the dark when it comes to mantaining an animal such as an octopus for study for a few days and releasing it afterwords. She never planned to just ship it out to some unknown source, or deliver it here or deliver it there out of the blue...thats just idiotic and insulting to her when nobody even knows her. She's very intelligent, caring AND trusting and has so much knowledge on marine life. She knows how to mantain a saltwater aquarium because she's had experience in raising some. However, iv told her some of the stuff written here...and just for the sake of a random problem, weve already contacted my local aquarium. Again, this is something iv stated already. If there's something in-appriopriate about visiting an aquarium for a few hours and experiencing the intelligence their octopus has, let me know. If she ever harmed the creature, trust me...financial payment would be sky-rocketing im sure. Me and her are out of ideas on obtaining an octopus for study and having it released perfectly safe without stress, and death....there's no possibility's at the moment and THATS why we both agree to just go to the aquarium...it's the best at the moment. This idea alone should have already proved to some people on here that my friend AND I are both enthusiastic with octopuses safety. Well, I hope it's proven soon because the number of words that can be expressed in writing is unlimited and an argument involving such an elaborate creature such as an octopus can go on and on. Well...hope I proved something. Im not in the dark and neither is my friend.
 
I don't know where you are in New Jersey, but have you tried contacting the Institute for Coastal Education in Camden? My only other suggestion is for your friend to volunteer at the New Jersey Aquarium - while an hour does seem a long drive, at least she would get experience at an aquarium, learn what aquarists (and scientists) do for most of their day. As you already know, science can be a lot of mundane and sometimes tedious work to prove something (you already know) to the rest of the world.

Good Luck,
Jennifer
 
Let's close down this discussion and trust that you, Armstrong, and your friend won't do harm to an octo. I hope she is able to volunteer because that would be a great experience for her.

This discussion seems to be based on too little or incomplete information about the situation (like why she had only a few days with a tank), which may or may not have led to misunderstandings, but let's go on to other things now.

I'm locking the thread...

Nancy
 
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