California Marine Reserves Collection and Fishing Regulations

Discussion in 'Sources for Cephalopods and Food' started by cuttlegirl, Sep 3, 2008.

  1. cuttlegirl

    cuttlegirl Colossal Squid Supporter Registered

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  2. marineboy

    marineboy Wonderpus Registered

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    damn I dont see octopus on the allowed list for Cardiff and San Elijo State Marine Conservation Area!

    guess im just an observer now

    -michael
     
  3. SanClementeEric

    SanClementeEric Blue Ring Registered

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    TAKE is for FOOD ONLY!

    These regulations apply to taking animals for food and if you research the regulations further, you'll see that it is illegal to take any live animal home for a pet, no matter what area.

    If you want to take animals for pets, you have to get a special permit from DFG for that. And it ain't easy.
     
  4. monty

    monty Colossal Squid Staff Member Supporter

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    I was told pretty explicitly by a California state official that a sport fishing license is OK to take for a personal-use pet, but the special permit was required to resell the animal as a pet for someone else. So, a sport fishing license is sufficient to "collect your own pet" but not to "collect an animal to be sold as a pet." It sounded like collecting a pet to be given away for free to someone else is out as well, although that wasn't really explicit. It seemed pretty clear that collecting to breed and sell the offspring was OK with the sport fishing permit as well.

    There is also a research collecting permit, and I don't know what the limits are on what can be done with animals collected for research once the research is done.

    I'd have to look up what most of these are called, but I'm pretty sure "sport fishing license" was the official name for the one for collecting for personal use.
     
  5. SanClementeEric

    SanClementeEric Blue Ring Registered

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    What state official was that? Do you have that in writing?

    I find it hard to believe considering regulations explicitly prohibit transporting live fish under a sport fishing license but I have put in a query to the DFG to clarify.
     
  6. monty

    monty Colossal Squid Staff Member Supporter

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    I guess since it's an official communication, it's not bad form to quote the letter (now that I've dug it up):

    Other inquiries with my state Senator's office found that putting both bimac species on the restricted list for the aquarium trade was done at the request of longtime TONMO friend Eric Hochberg, who was concerned that if they became popular enough, they could be overcollected enough to impact the wild populations. Here's that email (I removed the "to" line since Damian is a representative of my state Senator who contacted DFG for me, and I don't want to expose his email to spammers):

     
  7. Keith

    Keith Vampyroteuthis Registered

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    Oh hell yes. That just made my day. I still don't have an octo yet, so I can still change what I want. I wanted a bimac, but I couldn't find any for purchase, so I was going to get a briareus instead. I tried to find this same information several times, and got no responses. Now I have some options. Theres even a spot where I caught what I believe to be a bimac pretty close to me. Monty, you're a bad ass.
     
  8. Keith

    Keith Vampyroteuthis Registered

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    Sweeeet. I looked at that link cuttlegirl put up, and the only thing I can't use for recreation is "All marine aquatic plants".
     
  9. SanClementeEric

    SanClementeEric Blue Ring Registered

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    Yeah but you still have to have a special permit!

    Here is my letter just received:

    Dec 2, 2008

    Hi Eric,

    It is not legal for you to collect any of those animals or fish to keep as pets. Everything collected under a sportfishing license must be killed before leaving the water where taken. The only way to collect these animals would be under the authority of an Aquaria Collectors Permit, and they are quite pricy. These permits are intended for people collecting fish and animals for the aquarium/pet store trade. In 2009, they will run $391.00 and you can see the details at:
    http://www.dfg.ca.gov/licensing/commercial/commdescrip.html
    Sorry for the bad news!

    Carrie


    ^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~
    < > <
    Carrie E. Wilson
    Associate Marine Biologist
    California Outdoors Q&A Columnist
    Calif. Dept. of Fish and Game
    CalOutdoors@dfg.ca.gov
     
  10. SanClementeEric

    SanClementeEric Blue Ring Registered

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    Keith, you cannot collect that bimac. Just because there are no regulations that prohibit the display of them doesn't mean you can collect them. If you collect them, you are breaking the law, at least in California.
     
  11. monty

    monty Colossal Squid Staff Member Supporter

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    There seems to be some debate between the two DFG people... I wonder if the one I got email from just didn't think about the "animal must be killed" requirement, or if it doesn't apply to invertebrates? I'm almost positive that molluscs and crustaceans can be taken alive with a sport license (I'm thinking bivalves, abalone, crabs, and lobster, primarily.) But perhaps this is wishful thinking.

    Anyone feel like scouring the regulations to see what the sport fishing section actually says? I've only read the aquarium collection permit section of the code.

    edit: here's a place to start: http://law.onecle.com/california/fish/index.html

    edit2: this says there's a specific tidal invertebrate permit: http://law.justia.com/california/codes/fgc/8500.html which sounds like it applies to collection of bimacs the way most people do it (although they live in places other than tidal areas, too)

    edit3: I can't find anything in the code about having to kill animals before leaving the water, but I may have missed something... I looked mostly through the 7000 and 8000 sections.
     
  12. Animal Mother

    Animal Mother Architeuthis Supporter

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    How geigh.
     
  13. SanClementeEric

    SanClementeEric Blue Ring Registered

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    Here's The Thing...

    I have gone over this issue from both sides for many years. See, I am also a fisherman. I've communicated with Ed Roberts directly on transporting live animals and it's a no-no.

    You cannot transport live lobsters for sure! (Although it's hard because they don't die on their own for days!!!)

    I see no debate between what you've posted and what I've posted. I think your interpretation of what's in your letters is what is in question.

    There's a fine line between what is regulated and what's enforced.

    Take sport fishing for muscles, crabs (even sand crabs) and lobsters for example. They are not to be transported live (nothing can be) yet they are usually never dead when you leave. The main gist of the law is to prevent fish from being put into foreign waters, so a DFG warden probably won't cite you for having a live lobster, providing you have all the necessary permits and report cards to take it.

    From what I read in your letter from Ed, there are two species of octopus that you CANNOT take (Octopus
    bimaculoides and O. bimaculoidoides) and any others can only be taken with a marine aquaria collector's permit, as repeated in my letter from Carrie.

    So, no debate.
     
  14. SanClementeEric

    SanClementeEric Blue Ring Registered

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    I know! That means I was breaking the law when I was a ten-year old collecting salamanders, minnows and "crawdads"!
     
  15. SanClementeEric

    SanClementeEric Blue Ring Registered

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    There may be a way to get a Scientific Collecting permit. That might be something to research further!
     
  16. monty

    monty Colossal Squid Staff Member Supporter

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    I don't see how you can interpret this passage from Ed's letter that way:

    particularly given that the letter was specifically in response to a query about people collecting for their own use. I'm not saying Ed is right and Carrie is wrong, just that Ed seemed to explicitly say it was OK for personal use as long as you don't give the octo to anyone else... Ed's response was specifically in regards to a question about "suppose I wanted to collect a live bimac for my own aquarium?" so I'm fairly confident in reading that as "there's no problem with catching a live bimac with a sport fishing license and displaying it in your own home aquarium."

    Perhaps it would be best to ask them what they meant rather than argue among ourselves; I don't know much at all, but until you reported the information from Carrie, I thought Ed's letter was pretty unambiguous in saying it would be OK. I don't want to get anyone in trouble by telling them it's OK to collect their own bimacs if it isn't, but I also don't want to tell people it's illegal until we're sure that it is, since it seems like something a number of California TONMO folks would be interested in taking advantage of if it is allowed.
     
  17. monty

    monty Colossal Squid Staff Member Supporter

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    I sent an email to Ed Roberts and Carrie Wilson asking them to look at this discussion and clarify, so, perhaps we can get some more clarification. I hate to bug professionals, but I hope that if we can get an unambiguous answer once and for all we'll be able to point people at the answer here without having to bother the DFG in the future.
     
  18. SanClementeEric

    SanClementeEric Blue Ring Registered

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    That will be great!
     
  19. DHyslop

    DHyslop Architeuthis Supporter

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    I'd prefer not have further clarification! Ed's original email was rather unambiguous. I could produce that email with clear conscience if I was challenged while collecting.

    Now, given that; I don't recall seeing this "murder clause" in there, either. Honestly, I'd trust Ed--a specialist--over the Outdoors Q&A Columnist. Used to dealing with John Q. Public, she might even be stretching because she doesn't want you to go out and start grabbing octopuses.

    Dan
     
  20. monty

    monty Colossal Squid Staff Member Supporter

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    Yeah, I was a bit feeling like I would have preferred to stick with the answer I *liked* the most, but making sure we don't misrepresent the laws to people is probably more important. Carrie sent me a nice email saying she's looking into it in more detail, so keep your fingers crossed that she finds out it's OK...

    Also, she's an Associate Marine Biologist in addition to a columnist, although I imagine there's not anyone who's "Chief Officer in charge of Octopus Matters" or anything...
     

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