bandensis courting video (thrid edit: BABIES EATING GUPPIES)

Discussion in 'Cuttlefish Care' started by Thales, Mar 28, 2004.

  1. Thales

    Thales Colossal Squid Staff Member Moderator

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    Hey everyone,

    I think I have a male an a female Sepia bandensis and will try putting them together tonight or tomorrow night.
    Check out the video (8 meg, and for a weird reason it doesn't stream so it may take a while to load) at http://www.stickycricket.com/aquarium/movies/sexingcuttle.html

    In the video, they are looking at each other through a clear door in the divider of the tank.

    Let me know what you think!

    :D
     
  2. joel_ang

    joel_ang Architeuthis Registered

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    It was real good at the second half where both of them were parallel and displaying.Sad thing is they might be two males sizing each other up. At around the first quarter, the cuttle on the right lunged at the side of the other cuttle, something which I saw when my cuttles fought.

    I must say I'm extremely jealous right now :mrgreen: since my attempt failed :( . Any how, good luck :thumbsup:
     
  3. Colin

    Colin Colossal Squid Supporter

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    Ok, i have seen the video now and I'm 99% certain that we are looking at two males squaring off to each other, it certainly looks like threat displays, very similar to the ones that my male officinalis would go through before a fight.... also looks like they are both the same size, I'd expect the female to be a fair bit smaller
     
  4. neptune

    neptune Haliphron Atlanticus Registered

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    Interesting Vid! I personally amnot versed at keeping cuttles. But the others are and I have to agree this looks like a showdown! :goofysca:
     
  5. Thales

    Thales Colossal Squid Staff Member Moderator

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    I think its a male and female.

    At the beginning of the sexing video, they seemed to line up perpendicular to each other, looking like they were looking for love rather than sizing up for a fight. The displays at the end looked like courting because they didn't like up eye to eye.

    Colin, it is hard to tell in the vid, but the one on the right is smaller.

    Anyway, on to the exciting news!

    I put them together last night (based on my feelings and the feelings of a friend of mine that breeds Sepia o. at a research place in Flordia), and here is the new video:

    http://www.stickycricket.com/aquarium/movies/cuttlesex.html

    And the videos now stream! And if you are having trouble downloading it to your computer, try letting it load fully and then right click it.

    I am so freaking excited.
     
  6. neptune

    neptune Haliphron Atlanticus Registered

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    If so looks like he wanted more than she was willing. :P

    Thats does seem pretty peaceful, until the ending.
    GL if they mated!!
     
  7. Melissa

    Melissa Larger Pacific Striped Octopus Supporter

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    Fabulous! Does anyone know what cuttlefish eggs look like? Clusters like Jetta's or the squid eggs SOS collects? Strings like frogs' eggs? Cuttle homunculi?

    Great soundtrack - that Andrews Sisters sample cracked me up!

    Melissa
     
  8. Colin

    Colin Colossal Squid Supporter

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    i am going to be negative here and say that it still looks like 2 males, here is my thinking...

    female cuttles would not be attacked by the males, as the smaller one inked several times it obviously felt threatend. the left cuttlefish is in definite strike pose, nothing like a mating pose.

    Cuttlefish mate face to face. their arms are intertwined and the male passes sperm directly into the females mantle, this process takes a minute or two each time. There was nothing of this in the clip to suggest mating.

    I had several males and females of officinalis living together for several months, it looks exactly like the males squaring off to each other, and obvious attempts at bites.

    The female should lay eggs like little grapes straight after mating, then go back and mate again with the male. The male would normally be protecting her at this time. this could go on for several days.

    i'd expect a female cuttlefish to be at least 25% smaller than the male, not just a small amount.

    and last but not least........... i dont think they are bandensis.

    I hope that I am proven wrong as i obviously have not kept this species and wish you lots of luck
     
  9. Thales

    Thales Colossal Squid Staff Member Moderator

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  10. joel_ang

    joel_ang Architeuthis Registered

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    Thay do look like bandensis don't they?

    Under part 4 of Dr Wood's "Cuttlefish Husbandry" article, it has something on the displaying. Males will go paralel while the female will normally watch.

    I got Two pics, Sorry if they're copyrighted

    The first one shows a sepia apama in breeding colours. Though bandensis can't get this colour pattern, they can make lines run down their body when they're displaying.

    The second one shows two males side by side sizing each other up. They adopt a stance similar to the ones seen in the video.
     
  11. Colin

    Colin Colossal Squid Supporter

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    Hi again…

    I’ll try and expand a bit on some stuff; glad you’re not put off by it!

    As far as I am aware the female and male will hang about together for a long time, perhaps even several days while continually mating, laying eggs and then mating again, and so on. There should be no aggression and inking between the couple, as the female would just move to another male that is not likely to bite her. He would defend his right to her over other males and at other times stick to her like glue. I think it is more likely that octopus mating is likely to end up with a bit of violence.

    The strike pose I refer to is when they make all the arm into a point like looking down the barrel of a gun before striking something, and that’s exactly what left male did, swam round with pointy nose and struck the right male. Exactly what they do when they spot a prey item… the wriggling arms at the start also looks like a feeding response where they try to confuse prey.

    Squid normally mate side to side so perhaps it is not too much of a stretch for cuttlefish to do it that way, but everything I have read over the years suggests its always face to face… anyone else know?

    Fighting males would line up all different ways but most commonly side to side as this increases how big you look to a competing male, so rarely face to face, also that’s the best bit to avoid in a fight as that’s where the sharp bits are!

    My cuttles were far from being friends, it was just that they were in a 200 gal system and when they were only 3” long there was plenty space for them to have a bit of space each to defend. After I lost one through fighting and once they got about 5 – 6” I whittled it down to a pair and gave away the spares. The pair mated when they must have been about 8” or so for the male and about 5” for the female… I watched the male and female joined together and he was passing spermatophores into her mantle… why he then decided to eat her is beyond me!!!! I thought I had it cracked! But anyway, it let me see the mating displays, the zebra patterns and the way he showed off to her.

    The females of cuttlefish that I have read about always lay a few eggs after mating then go back to mate again and again and so on. Perhaps there are exceptions but that is the generalised way they breed. Octopuses will store sperm but as far as I am aware cuttlefish don’t.

    Your cuttlefish look to me like they are in the range of 4” or so, perhaps it’s a trick of the eye, but bandensis should only be about 5cm (2”) max.

    Let me comment on the fact that there is very little information about cuttlefish mating in general let alone species specific. So it is hard to tell what is happening but hopefully this helps put more information together for future cases.

    Keep up the good work!!!
     
  12. neptune

    neptune Haliphron Atlanticus Registered

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    Colin,

    Did you male cuttle eat any others in the tank prior to dispensing the spares. If so maybe he had the taste for cuttles, and saw an easy meal???
     
  13. Colin

    Colin Colossal Squid Supporter

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    Yes and a part of me also thinks that was the problem.... worse than that the cuttle that got eaten happened only a day or two after feeding them squid for the 1st and last time... retrospect is great!
     
  14. joel_ang

    joel_ang Architeuthis Registered

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    But wouldn't his instinct to mate be greater?
     
  15. neptune

    neptune Haliphron Atlanticus Registered

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    Sorry to hear about your loss none the less, but I was just taking a wild stab in the dark.

    I figured his canabilistic intstinct had to be encourage to some degree.
     
  16. NickA5582

    NickA5582 Sepia elegans Registered

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    Good luck with your breeding efforts Righty!
     
  17. Thales

    Thales Colossal Squid Staff Member Moderator

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    Thanks everyone! Quick update - I put them together again and it wasn't wonderful. They chased right away (I think they were hungry). After a few minutes I decided to put them back into their respective homes - my mistake. I should have let them be in the homes they were in, but I thought they needed to be in the surroundings they were used to. During the attempts to shoo them around, I got major ink. Major. Did I mention major. From both of them. Got them settled, and broke out the Magnum 330's, carbon and a micron filter - and was very please I shelled out the buck for a big skimmer. 7 or 8 hours later, the tank was clean and everyone ate.

    NOW THE GOOD NEWS.

    I picked up three more cuttles today, and they are acclimating as I type. The LFS had 5, but two of them are big, so I didn't get them.

    Colin, according to ceph base Bandensis has an adult mantle length of 6 cm. This is straight from cephbase, their arms are usually 3-5 cm. Head probably about 2. that's a total of 9-12 cm, about 5-6", which looks right for my guys. According to my friend in Flordia who really seems to know what he is talking about "Morphology for bandensis is perfect too, especially in the pic in the cuttle page of your website: the common name is stump-spined cuttles"
    But then who knows? I am just hoping that they are all the same species - they really look it.

    Anyway, should I start a new thread about this or just leave it here?

    Thanks for the input, and please keep it comming.

    Rich
     
  18. joel_ang

    joel_ang Architeuthis Registered

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    Sepia Apama, the giant cuttles can grow to about 50cm ML, their arms also get up to 50cm which is perhaps why they look so different sometimes.

    I have no doubts those are bandensis righty, other than bandensis, what other species come in?
     
  19. Thales

    Thales Colossal Squid Staff Member Moderator

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    Just bandensis, and I had to push to get the to order them.

    Oh, they also have the blue dots around the fin that are described for bandensis.
     
  20. joel_ang

    joel_ang Architeuthis Registered

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    Yup, that confirms it, theres another species whose name I can't remember, which looks alot like a bandensis except for those iridecent spots.
     

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