Blue Ring Venom

[Tamara]

I seem to remember reading somewhere on this forum a story about a guy having some problems a day or two after cleaning a tank a blue ring had been housed in. I dive in an area with blue rings (not greater), two days ago one crawled onto my buddy's camera. Today his knee is inexplicably extremely painful and swollen to softball size and yesterday he was complaing about dizziness -although that maybe because he took so many painkillers. I was wondering if there could be a link in there somewhere. I don't really think there is- it's his knee not his hand which was definitly closer to the animal- and everything I've read about blue ring toxin says that it wears off in 24 hours. It's just a really bizarre injury because if it were a scorpion fish you normally can feel it imediately and see the puncture wound, hydroids and jellies look like a burn. There are no marks just intense pain.
Not sure if this is the right section for this, or even if there is a right section for this, It's just been stuck in my head this afternoon and this seems like the most knowledgable place to air the thought

 

[neurobadger]

I strongly doubt it's a blue ring bite. Blue rings would have asphyxiated him. Blue ring venom contains tetrodotoxin. 24 hours is a long time for the venom to kick in.

Tell him to go to the hospital anyway.

 

[skywindsurfer]

I doubt it was the blue ring. Was he wearing a wet suit and if so what kind?

 

[robyn]

No, I don't think it's blue-ring envenomation. TTX toxicity usually appears rapidly and characterised by spreading numbness, dizziness, paralysis, gastric pain (because TTX is often ingested, but this may not occur in bite-envenomation), and paralysis caused by blockade of voltage-gated sodium channels. Death comes usually from paralysis of the diaphragm or cardiac muscle within hours, and by 24hrs (if the patient has received respiratory support during the acute stage), recovery chances are usually good.

Localised swelling and pain sounds more like an infection in the joint - worth getting some medical attention for as that could be serious if left untreated. It might also be a cutaneous, spreading infection from a water-borne bacterium that might have entered his body some distance from the knee joint. Tell him to go and get himself checked, but that in my opinion (opinion only - I am not an MD) he can probably not worry too much about TTX poisoning.

 

[Tamara]

Thanks for all the replies. No wetsuit here, the water is between 30 and 27 degrees normally we dive in boardshorts and a thermal vest He's been to the doctor who said it looked like a sting of some sort. I'm glad everyone agrees that it doesn't seem like something a blue ring could do. We have been going through every animal we can think of that we've been near in the past few days can't find anything. He was given an injection and paracetamol and another stronger anti-inflam/painkiller about 8 hours ago but it hasn't helped. Hopefully after tomorrow it'll be a bit better.

 

[DWhatley]

Since the doctor says it appears to be a sting, one hopes it is not that obnoxious tiny irukandji jellyfish you guys have. If there are no red lines or draining, it does not sound like a spider bite either. Are there any particularly nasty wasps, bees or ants where you put in to dive?

 

[neurobadger]

If it was the Irukandji jellyfish, he'd have known it in 24 hours.

THE PAIN

 

[skywindsurfer]

What about bumping into a sea urchin or crown of thorns?

 

[Tamara]

I think the stinger will be a mystery forever. He's been back to the doctor again who said it looks like whatever it is has become infected gave him an antibotic injection and 4 other medicines to take. He can now stand and can almost walk, but he'll probably be out of the water for a week because the meds make him really sleepy. The dive shop backs onto the jungle so there are plenty of nasty little land animals around also. The water is quite warm we normally dive in boardshorts and a 1.5mm rashguard. The dive was a muck dive- over a sandy bottom, so it would have to be something fairly discrete or something that likes to burry itself. Thanks everyone for all your concern/help.

What do you think is the likelihood of having a problem from close proximity to a blue ring? Do they have any control over their venom? From what I understand it's delivered through their siliva can octopus drool? When I see them it's normally because I've almost swam into them and they've flashed at me. We always make sure to be extra careful around them but they are curious and sometimes come sit on his camera or grab at my pointer stick. I don't think I'd want to try to push them off. I'd love to hear anyones opinions/thoughts.

 

[skywindsurfer]

There are so many things that live in mucky sand beds, who knows. As for your blue ring question, yes they can 'drool' so to speak. They have the ability to 'spit' a cloud of venom over a prey item to paralize it before they grab it I would guess as a safety protocol. As long as you are not grabbing the animal or smashing into it I would say you are safe. Even though their venom can dissolve into the water, with the amount of water in the ocean and the flow of current pushing it away, you shouldn't have any problem. I would how ever recommend wearing gloves. While thin ones will not help prevent a bite, they will add some security. They have thicker gloves that will prevent a bite entirely, but they might restrick hand/finger movements. I would also recommend that you and your friend stay in the water column and avoid touching anything at all cost unless the part of your body making contact is covered with some form of exposure suit and not just a pair of board shorts.

 

[Neogonodactylus]

I'm afraid the jury is still out on whether blue-rings release TTX as a defense or to kill prey at a distance. The suggestion that they do can be traced back to an article nearly 30 years ago where there is a short suggestion that this occurs. The species was a temperate water Australian blue-ring (H. maculousa or H. fasciatus). This was later picked up by a film maker who staged an interaction between a blue-ring (H. fasciatus) and a stomatopod. The stomatopod died and the narrator in the film states that the octopus released venom to kill the stomatopod. I don't believe that it was a voluntary action on the part of the blue-ring. I discussed this with the person who shot the sequence. It was a staged encounter in a small aquarium and more than one stomatopod was involved, one of which may have injured the octopus and cause the release of TTX.

The only credible suggestion of offensive or defensive venom release I can find was in an Australian PhD dissertation. The author suggested that H. maculosa females brooding eggs might release venom if disturbed, but no direct evidence was for this was offered and to my knowledge the observation was never published..

I may have inadvertently contributed to this mythology by describing a few times on this forum how I experienced TTX symptoms when handling (without gloves) an H. lunulata that arrived dead in a shipping bag. The symptoms were minimal consisting of only minor parathesia in the hand a few minutes after exposure to the water and lasted only a few minutes. I suspect that after the octopus died, TTX oozed out of the posterior salivary glands. I have since talked with one importer of cephalopods who had a similar, but stronger response to handling a dead blue-ring. He had to go to the ER or respiratory symptoms. In this case, the blue-ring in question was a large undescribed species known to have killed a human.

In the open ocean I would not be overly concerned about TTX release by a blue-ring unless it was within inches of my skin and then the concern would be primarily about it making contact and biting.

Roy

 

[tonmo]

Thanks for clarifying that here, Roy!

 

[skywindsurfer]

What about those who have said they have expeirenced TTX symptoms while handling water that came from a blue ring tank?

 

[Neogonodactylus]

As I stated in the post above, I was the person who experienced the TTX symptoms along with another account that has not been previously published. Those were both encounters with animals that died. I know of no case where someone experienced TTX poisoning after exposure to the water from an aquarium where the blue-ring was healthy.

Roy

 

[skywindsurfer]

Oh ok, I must have misunderstood prevois posts where I read about something similar.