Ceph ? Non ceph - the mystery object !

[spartacus]

here it is folks, a conical spiral Toarcien, Upper Liassic, Lower Jurassic up to 189.5mya (found inches from an Harpoceras & an Hildoceras bifrons
it's 40mm tall & 30mm dia at fat end.
nothing like it it any of my reference books except turrilites but they're of the Cretaceous so that's a :P
all yours !

[WhiteKiboko]

seems to be some sort of unfinished pastry by an belemite just learning the way around the kitchen....

by the way thats some nice grafitti in the background... :)

[spartacus]

I'll pen that in as a "not sure" then ? :D
Graphiti was for benefit of m'boy who thinks my engraver is magic

[Phil]

Looks like a belemnite phragmocone to me, Spartacus.

[WhiteKiboko]

I'll pen that in as a "not sure" then ?

Aha!! i looked up 'phragmocone' and it was described as a prehistoric attempt at a scone.....

sorry... i promise ill be quiet from here out....

[spartacus]

Looks like a belemnite phragmocone to me, Spartacus.

that's a good answer & I see where you're coming from.
do belemnites get that big ? & would it have coiled structure ?

all flippant answers are more than welcome ya pesky hippo !

[cthulhu77]

I have attempted to eat british scones that were that hard...

[Phil]

that's a good answer & I see where you're coming from.
do belemnites get that big ? & would it have coiled structure ?

Some belemnites did get that large, and some even larger. Megateuthis had a rostrum or guard at least 50cm long with the entire animal probably measuring at least three meters or so in length, though off the top of my head I don't know if those are found in your area. Mind you, if your 'mystery object' is spiralled and not a cone of concentric rings then it probably isn't a belemnite after all. Maybe a gastopod of some type?

[Jean]

Looks "gastropodish" to me!

J

[neuropteris]

Hi Spartacus

I pretty certain its not a scone (though I have been to some cafes where you'd begin to wonder!). my guess is belemnite phragmocone. Attached is a pic of one from the same age rocks of Ravenscar in Yorkshire.

All the best


Andy

[spartacus]

I have attempted to eat british scones that were that hard...

I think you"ll find they were "Special export" scones you tried as our friends have evolved to have a larger & more numerous dentition than the original Anglo-European species. You may find you're perhaps a genetic throwback who still sports ickle native chops comme ça !

Rejoice in your uniqueness & consider every weakness something special of your own ! (free scone to whoever names that song 1st)

Phil, you amaze me ! you've been bathing in Omega 3 again, haven't you !
3m belemnite, sheesh, I thought they were small fry - hence my education speeds forward towards the bright light of ultimate knowledge

Jean, erudite one of the southern hemisphere me too but a shame if so as ceph is way cooler as we all know within these hallowed virtual walls.

Andy, (that Andy ?) you've snapped one already but tanned. Going on the abundantessness of Hildoceras of the Yorkshire area I believe we've solved the mystery in an impresssive short space of time
My huge thanks to all involved, scones included - belemnitic phragmocone it is

[AndyS]

Spartacus,

Not that Andy (if you were talking about me, that is...)
- Neuropteris/Andy was faster this time -
though I admit I opened the belemnite drawer, looked at a specimen that when found in situ had the phragmocone still attached, thought it in need of a bit of prep to be presentable and lost the race !
Oh well, damn perfectionism, here it comes (attached, err.. unattached ) !
It was found in the upper lias, tenuicostatum subzone of Runswick Bay, UK
and measures 8 inches / 21 cm in total ( 5" / 13 cm guard, 3"/ 8 cm phragmocone)

AndyS

[spartacus]

it was indeed your goodself of whom I spoke :D
sorry the mystery object never got to your forum (well done on your promotion by the way) but the Tonmo crew did the biz.

I found what was a honking belemnite for me at Pakefield that I'd forgotten I had, must did it out & give it a scan as they tend to be the unsung heroes of fossildom compared to their curly cousins

Keef

[neuropteris]

Hi Spartacus, AndyS and all

Well, I've just taken this pic and then found t'other Andy has gone and put one on aswell. Never mind - here's another picture of a Grey Shale Belemnite/Phragmocone combo also from Runswick Bay area - they are quite commonly found together in that stratum and get to a fair size. Often the Phragomcone has a nodule around it and the guard sticks out of the end.

Andy

[Phil]

Both Andys, fantastic specimens, thanks for posting them.

Here's another phragmocone, this one slightly later dated to the Lower Oxfordian Age of the Jurassic (157-159m-ish) and came from somewhere in France. Unfortunately I don't know the species, though it could very possibly be Cylindroteuthis. It has been slightly crushed and measures about 30mm in length.

[Architeuthoceras]

Great finds! 8) Are the guards usually found separated from the phragmocones? The belemnites over here very rarely have any portion of the phragmocone preserved, at least the ones I find :(

[spartacus]

Great finds! 8) Are the guards usually found separated from the phragmocones? The belemnites over here very rarely have any portion of the phragmocone preserved, at least the ones I find :(

stay calm big Kevin, your time will come, this was my 1st.
thx for putting on such a good show guys, you all passed except Phil (nice pic) who has to answer this additional point before receiving his commendation.
I've not read up on phragmocone construction as yet, so what exactly is the cone of concentric rings that has been preserved eh ? I dunno.

Keef

[Architeuthoceras]

I'm not Phil, but i'll answer anyway. Phil told me, so he still gets his commendation.

The Phragmocone of a shelled cephalopod is made up of air (or gas) chambers separated by the septa. Usually when the phragmocone of a belemnite gets fossilized, the chambers are filled with detritus or infilled with calcite. when and if the shell material desolves you are left with a series of concentric conical segments. The contact of the septa with the shell wall forms the suture. Belemnite sutures are straight, so you get the concentric cones, ammonoid sutures are complex, and the shell is usually coiled so the phragmocone is preserved as a coiled series of complex ended segments. :)

[spartacus]

et voilà, merci jeune Kevin & a gold star goes to you
credit to the great Phil for passing on that gen. to your goodself.

Keef

[neuropteris]

In answer to Kevins question about Belemnite/Phragmocone combos - I can only ocmment on what I've found on the Coast but the rock sequence they are found in certainly seems to be a factor - in the Grey Shale where mine and AndyS's pictured beasties came from, associated Belemnite Guards and Phragmocones are very common whereas in the slightly younger Alum Shales they are less so (though Belemnite guards are abundant and phragmocones are also still present). I've also found lots of Belemnite guards in the Cretaceous age Speeton Clay from further south but these generally seem to have a void where the phragmocone was. Basically I don't know why they occur so frequently in the Grey Shale - might be due to conditions during fossilisation or the species of Belemnite involved?

Andy