S. bandensis at the California Academy of Sciences

**Thales** · Oct 31, '09, 10:17pm

The parents are really quite interactive and fun. I hand feed them most of the time and they will let me pull them up out of the water.

**DWhatley** · Oct 31, '09, 10:23pm

Have you estimated how many?

I wonder why these are more interactive than most. How many adults are in one tank and what is the male female ratio? Do you think it has anything to do with the sparceness of the the available cover or the particular cover that you have provided?

**Thales** · Oct 31, '09, 10:34pm

In the tank on display we have 2 males and 4 females and almost no aggression. I think the ratio has something to do with it, but the twice daily consistent large shrimp feedings may have more to do with it. The open top tank accessible only from the rear may also have something to do with it. I have shipped out 218 eggs/hatchlings and have at least 70 hatchlings and at least 50 eggs left with more still being laid.

It is really interesting to see the cuttles hanging out in the extended polyps of the sarcophyton. :D

**flaherty8153** · Nov 01, '09, 11:11am

What was the sizes of them when they started to breed ? thank you

**Thales** · Nov 02, '09, 10:43am

They started mating at 3 - 4 months. Egg laying at 5-6 months.

**Thales** · Nov 02, '09, 10:48am

Some more pics:
UL and UR the first batch of harvested eggs
LL Gang of 5 waiting to be fed. The 6th (the small male) was waiting on the other side of the tank. Interesting to see them bunching when they are this old.
LR New UW camera (olympus stylus tough 8000 - so far a must for any aquarist) so I am figuring out how to use it. In this case the flash was too hot, but neat how the tentacles are all crazy. I suspect this was just after the clubs hit the shrimp and the floppy is just before the reel in.

**MrED** · Nov 02, '09, 4:59pm

I guess none will be available for us HOBBY folk. DARN restrictions!!!!!! Institutions monopolizing at its best. :-)
SWEET PICTURES!!!! I have been looking for 2 months with no luck and my 5 month old will probably die alone.
Guess that is why I get frustrated with some rules. Thanks for letting me vent.

**Thales** · Nov 03, '09, 12:33am

Vent away! I used to before I worked at a AZA institution.

**DWhatley** · Nov 03, '09, 2:46am

**MrED** · Nov 03, '09, 11:01am

Yea! Guess I thought (<~~~my mistake) we were all working together in this forum. Might just have to stick to the Seahorses where the community is more equal in balance and not as institutionalized. I still love the pics,so keep them coming. :-) And I have to remember, if the institutions run and operate on their own and don't use TAX payers money. They own nothing!!
THALES, the 5 month old is one that you sent me. Thanks for getting me going and introduced to cuttles. I may sound upset, but I am not, just confused sometimes with politics. (most of the time) Keep up the good work. (secret) I have connections to institutions too, but worry about those that don't. Kinda like, were we came from in the hobby.I am sure there were hobbyist that started first and decided to open and aquarium or science department. {you did say venting was alright} Ha! Ha! Greatly appreciated! time to feed the Octopus, turtles, clawed frogs, parrot fish, tortoises, seahorses, Betta's, bearded dragons, Veiled Chameleons and of course the LONE CUTTLE-fish. (maybe that is why there are regulations against us hobbyists) Have a great day! I will!!!

**Thales** · Nov 03, '09, 11:49am

Venting is fine, accusatory writing is a little hard to take.

We are all working together. TONMO is a unique community where private hobbyists, public aquarists and research scientists regularly contribute. It is truly amazing that this continued participation has lasted and grown - it is something that is sorely missing is the rest of the marine hobby.

You mention seahorses, but most public aquariums are constrained by the same restrictions about sharing animals with non accredited entities. My reading of the seahorse forums is that public aquarists and researchers participate very rarely. The difference seems to be, IMO, that way more people are breeding seahorses than are breeding cephs, so it seems like things are more open because there are more animals available.

I am confused by your calling my good work (thanks!) secret when I have been posting about it here.

Institutions restrict who gets their surplus animals for many reasons, and I think we shouldn't dismiss them because they are inconvenient to us. For instance, my private breeding of cuttles meant that I had to send animals to people who I knew wouldn't be able to keep them, but I wanted their money and needed to unload the animals. A public institution is under no such pressure and sending animals to people who can't take care of them is an anathema. I used to think it would be easy to vet individuals to allow such institutions to send them animals, but seeing it from the other side, it is simply not that easy, and the resources may simply not be there. Sending animals only to institutions that have been 'pre vetted' is easier, and allows for easier tracking of the animals over time (sending to hobbyists and asking for feedback is often met with silence - from personal pre public aquarium experience). Also, finding the time to send 200 eggs is hard enough, finding the time to send 10 to 10 different people would be incredibly difficult. These are some of the reasons behind public institutions not sending animals to private individuals, but are no means all of them.
When I first started with cuttles I too was frustrated with not being able to get animals, but quickly understood and respected the reasoning behind it.

I hope that in the future, before getting upset, you ask about some of the whys. On TONMO at least, you'll be able to get both sides of the story.

**Thales** · Nov 03, '09, 11:50am

PS. Sending you a hatchling now will do you no good. Introducing it to your 5 month old animal will prolly end up with your current cuttle having a snack.

**MrED** · Nov 03, '09, 12:28pm

Well put!!!
I was not angry and like you said, you were here before getting your position.
A hobbyist doesn't really do it for the money just to keep things running. (my opinion only) I have given lots of macro algae I have grown away, for free and paid the shipping, just so others can enjoy. (far from being wealthy)
I guess, my thoughts in helping might be different than others. Like the old saying "actions are stronger than words".
Sorry for making it seem that institutions don't care, they are in the business of Education.
If little voices like my self don't get out then all seems to be OK.
Thanks for the input.
Thales, you have to remember, you were a big part of getting CB cuttles actually the only one I knew of.
It would be like McDonalds only serving the White House.
So much would be lost. I guess we would have to be happy for them. :-)

**Thales** · Nov 03, '09, 12:58pm

Thanks!

Remember also that breeding cuttles was very expensive without much payback. There was only so much I could do out of my own pocket. I really tried to make a go of it, but the market just isn't there. Truthfully, the only reasons I am working with bandensis now is because its through work.

**MrED** · Nov 03, '09, 2:51pm

And you personally have done a superb job. (guess if I started now, I would not even want them) I have experiance with Wild Caught Seahorses ( some do well if treated properly) but don't compare at all to CB. I am sure it is the same with the cuttles and Ocotpus. Timing is everything!!!
If anyone wants to delete this conversation, please feel free to. :-)
NOTE::: I still want Institutions to sell their products. Ha! Ha!

**DWhatley** · Nov 03, '09, 3:19pm

Excellent discussion gentlemen.

**Thales** · Nov 03, '09, 5:29pm

Interestingly enough, it turns out we have too many and are trying to work out a way to get them into the supply chain for individuals. There is no way we can handle it ourselves, but I am working on getting them to an online supplier. I'll let you know if and when it happens.

**MrED** · Nov 03, '09, 6:08pm

That would be awesome!!

**flaherty8153** · Nov 03, '09, 7:10pm

After all of that I don't know if I would those cuttles might already be to institutionalized for Mr. Ed .

**hobogato** · Nov 03, '09, 8:27pm

Originally Posted by Thales

Interestingly enough, it turns out we have too many and are trying to work out a way to get them into the supply chain for individuals. There is no way we can handle it ourselves, but I am working on getting them to an online supplier. I'll let you know if and when it happens.

what about public schools with marine bio programs? i know it would be nice to get some for my classroom, but there may be other schools that have programs or want to start programs that will breed them. just food for thought ;)