octopus inteligence

[delosa]

My new octopus Felix has outsmarted me. I got him last week and I put him in the tank. He was out for a long time - several hours - then he disappeared. I left him alone for about a week and then, when I was sure he was dead in there somewhere, I took out every rock, combed through all the sand, replaced all the rocks still probing every hole looking for him. He was not to be found. I was positive the crabs ate him.

Last night, I ordered my last octopus. I had a credit at the fish store, so I decided I would try to keep and octopus one last time.

Okay, I'm sure you are all with me. Tonight, guess who is swimming aournd the tank? Of course, Felix. He was so happy to see me. He even took a shirmp off a feeding stick and ate it. That is something I haven't been able to get an octopus to do before. Happy days in the Delosa household.

Now, what do I do with the other octopus that is coming tomorrow? Felix is a small aculeatus. I expect the new octopus to be small or a drawf too.

Can I put both in a 75 gal tank if I put a divider down the center? I know I may have to get another tank as they both get bigger, but I was wondering, as a quick fix, would it work. I hate to spend the money if the octopus is only going to survive a couple of weeks but am more than willing to make the investment if I have good luck with it.

And, if they can be room mates, shouldn't I call the other one Oscar?

[DWhatley]

Oscar's a definite but as to the question of keeping them together, I have no clue.

[zyan silver]

Debra, I think you'll have to give it a whirl. Make sure that there several suitable dens for both and have food always available . I bet that it will work out well. Look forward to hearing about it. Zyan

[delosa]

Thanks guys for your responses. Zyan, I'm still waiting for you new babies. I will be sure to have a place for a couple of them when they become available.

[gjbarord]

There should not be any problem with harboring multiple octopus in one aquarium given ample den space & prey availability. Reproductive behaviors may cause problems in the future where den space may become more of an issue. You will never know unless you try it... Good luck!

Greg

[mucktopus]

Putting two together could be really risky. One is likely to stress the other out, and octos are known to eat each other in captivity. It's probably strange enough for them to move from the wild to a small aquarium- acuelatus (which is used to crawling tens to hundreds of meters a day) is not likely to want to share the little space for very long.

[corw314]

Seems to me most that have attempted housing more than one together eventually one of them disappeared whether for the above reasons or what but other than Zyan, I really do not remember any success stories housing more than one.

[monty]

I seem to remember that someone else (I forget who) has 2 bimacs right now, but I can't think of anyone mixing 2 different species or 2 aculeatus before...

[Nancy]

Actually, usually it doesn't work out even with two bimacs. We've had several people try it. Perhaps it would be more successful with those that have been raised together and are a little older - usually one becomes dominant and the other stays very small, eventually dies, even in a larger tank.

I seem to remember that experiments with two different species were more successful than with two of the same species, but I think it would depend on the species and how old the octopuses are when put into the tank.

Nancy

[monty]

Actually, usually it doesn't work out even with two bimacs.

Further looking suggests that I was thinking of Mizu having 2 of Zyan's bimacs, but that didn't work out either... I certainly didn't mean it as a suggestion that it was a good idea, but I guess I was too vague.

[DWhatley]

Zyan's babies have succeeded and I am going to try my Mercs together but these are sibblings who were/are raised together from hatchlings.

I believe Delosa suggested that she thought she could partition the tank. Noting Mucktopus' reply, the partitioning might need to be uneven and long ways rather than bisectional. Depending upon time, materials and creativitiy, it might be possible to run an over/under section or sealed tubing runs to share more room.

[delosa]

They will stress each other even if I have it divided down the center with a screen were they can't get to each other?

[gjbarord]

The stress placed on octopus living side by side (with a partition) would probably induce less stress than having two aggressive octopus in the same aquarium. The aggressor will most likely be searching the partition for a route to the other side. I have seen this sort of behavior occur in [I]bimaculoides[I]. Just so I am clear, my recommendation would be to house only one octopus at a time. It is possible, however, to house multiple octopus at the same time given the right environmental conditions.

Greg

[delosa]

Well, I think I will give them about a week to see how they are doing, then if all goes well, I'll get another aquarium.

Thanks everyone.

[YELLOWFISH]

Sorry if this sounds a little off topic but going back to the intelligence aspect of octopus. Doesn't anyone else find it strange that a creature with such a high mental capacity has such a short lifespan? Most intelligent creatures have quite a long life span and most need it as they have alot to learn. Octopus don't.

Wether this is a blessing to mankind or a curse is up for debate. :wink:

[delosa]

I just read on interesting article about that very subject. I just happened upon it when I was looking for something else.

http://discovermagazine.com/2003/oct/feateye/

[shipposhack]

Good article. Not a light read :read:

[monty]

my :twocents: is that a lot of what we assume about intelligent animals comes from extrapolating from just the vertebrates, or just the mammals, so we're getting a whole lot of evolutionary baggage in the animals that happen to be intelligent, but that doesn't really have anything to do with intelligence in general. I think a good reason to investigate smart invertebrates like cephs or stomatopods is to understand how much blindness we have to things that aren't like us, as well as to look at how animals distantly related to us use different biology to solve the same problems we do by convergent evolution to some particular pattern (the similarities and differences between human and octopus eyes are often brought up in this regard).

[DWhatley]

delosa,
Great rabbit trail!

[delosa]

I wonder what octopuses would be able to do if they lived for 10... 15... or 20 years. If they can at such a fast rate, imagine the possibilites.

[YELLOWFISH]

That's what I am getting at. If octos can exhibit such intelligence despite a complete lack of culture and a short lifespan. Imagine what those brains might be capable of if they were on par with human lifespans. And better still, if they somehow developed a means of passing this knowledge and skill base on from one generation to the next.

One element that jumped out at me was this section of the article linked to above:


Meanwhile, Anderson has been investigating another phenomenon little-noted in invertebrates: sleep. Until recently, only vertebrates were believed to sleep in the full metabolic sense. But Anderson has observed that octopuses, ordinarily hypervigilant, may sleep deeply. Their eyes glaze over, their breathing turns slow and shallow, they don't respond to light taps, and a male will let his delicate ligula—the sex organ at the tip of one arm—dangle perilously.

Stephen Duntley, a sleep specialist at Washington University Medical School in St. Louis, has videotaped similar slumber in cuttlefish, with a twist: Sleeping cuttlefish lie still, their skin a dull brown, for 10- to 15-minute stretches, then flash bold colored patterns and twitch their tentacles for briefer intervals. After viewing Duntley's footage, Anderson suggests the cuttlefish might merely be waking to check for threats. But Duntley says the cycling resembles the rapid eye movement sleep of birds and mammals, when humans dream. If invertebrates undergo a similar cycle, Duntley argues, it would affirm "that REM sleep is very important to learning." Would it also suggest that cuttlefish and octopuses dream? "That's the ultimate question," Duntley responds.

Have any of you lot noticed this phenomenon in your tanks?

[sorseress]

Fascinating stuff.

[cuttlegirl]

My cuttlefish definitely rest. They are usually pale (matching the sand) and at the back of the tank with their pupils closed... In the morning, sometimes I catch them still resting before the timer turns the light on.

[Cairnos]

That's what I am getting at. If octos can exhibit such intelligence despite a complete lack of culture and a short lifespan. Imagine what those brains might be capable of if they were on par with human lifespans. And better still, if they somehow developed a means of passing this knowledge and skill base on from one generation to the next.



Any further down this line of speculation and I think you need to shift this thread to the Cthulu forum :twisted::cthulhu:

[delosa]

I think my octopus sleeps. Sometimes if I'm quiet, I can sneak past the tank and Oscar doesn't even move. Other times, he shys away from the front of the tank. He also turns very pale.

It is interesting to think he may be dreaming. What could they be dreaming about.

[Cairnos]

And better still, if they somehow developed a means of passing this knowledge and skill base on from one generation to the next.


Think about the rate at which they could transmit information using thier colour/pattern changes and what's more, unlike us, both could communicate simultaneously (well ok some humans can do this). The possibililties of body language with eight fully flexible limbs also rather boggle the mind.

[shipposhack]

All things sleep. This is saying that cephs may sleep like we do, shutting down systems and dreaming. Unlike fish who hover at the bottom of the tank and don't seem much any different from when they are awake.