Mr. Octopus gave me some venom last week when I was playing with him. If he's out playing when I open the lid he'll usually come to the top and start grabbing me. I enjoy playing tug of war, but he'd never given me more than a nibble. It felt like a very bad beesting. These photos are of my finger within about a half hour. I took some ibuprofen and slept on it, the next day my finger was still noticeable but not quite as bad as the night before.

http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i222/dbhyslop/octopus/Mr%20Octopus/vent.jpg

http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i222/dbhyslop/octopus/Mr%20Octopus/lat.jpg

Ouch.....My reasoning exactly as to why I'm a little hesitant to let Spike get ahold of me..........

It's too late for this time, but for future reference:

http://www.thecephalopodpage.org/octobite.php

recommends hot water treatment for octo bites, and has some references.

sorry about your finger. I'm glad you're not terribly allergic to cephalotoxin.

hmmm.... trained assassins. zy

Hmm, that's the worst bimac bite reaction we've had, I believe. Maybe people react differently to the venom. Or maybe this was a deeper bite, not just a nibble. I'm posting my husbands hand after Ollie bit him, which was much less severe. At any rate, unless you have a severe allergic reaction or get an infection from what's in the water, these bites seem to be minor.

Nancy

:shock: yikes, sorry to hear you had such a bad reaction... are you allergic to other animals (like bees)?

I haven't yet encountered any other animals I'm allergic to. Nonetheless its a good reminder that these are animals that can act unpredictably--Mr. Octopus had plenty of opportunities to do this to me in the past and didn't.

Dan

I honestly believe differences in bites have less to do with differential reactions than it does with whether or not the octopus actually envenomates and to what degree that it does...

So, are all Octo's venomous to some degree, or just certain ones?

How about cuttles and Squid?

I know the blue ring, blue lined Octos, striped pajama squid and more recently the flamboyant Cuttle are truly venomous, this question regards the remaining species.

Thanks!

:bluering:

Dan, was there anything different about your interaction this time? Did he seem to act any different? Taollan's comment made me wonder why, if in fact it's a matter of "choice" on the part of the octopus whether it envenomates or not, why he would this time and not before.

No difference, really. The bite itself wasn't much more severe than ones he'd previously inflicted--he barely, if at all, breaks the skin. I would have to agree with Tao that it seems like the octopus makes a choice whether to envenomate.

So, are all Octo's venomous to some degree, or just certain ones?

How about cuttles and Squid?

I know the blue ring, blue lined Octos, striped pajama squid and more recently the flamboyant Cuttle are truly venomous, this question regards the remaining species.

Thanks!

:bluering:

At least most cephalopods have some sort of venom, but most species have venom that isn't too dangerous for humans, just crustaceans.

I believe that the toxins in flamboyant cuttles and maybe the pajama squids are not injected as venom, but rather in the flesh and the slime, respectively, so they're dangerous to creatures that eat them, as opposed to the blue ring is dangerous to creatures that it bites. So, to be pedantic, the blue ring is venomous, while the flamboyant is toxic/poisonous.

edit: Actually, for safety's sake, I should point out that flamboyants and others may also be venomous, I'm not sure that anyone knows. I'm just sure they're toxic, and I'm sure that blue rings are venomous with venom that is lethal to humans. This is key, in that it is much easier to be accidentally bitten by your pet than to accidentally eat your pet.

When considering envenomation, you have to consider a host of variables when discussing this topic. They include species, size, depth and duration of the puncture, immune system of the victim, etc. Then there is the danger of the introduction of pathogens into the wound that has nothing to do with the venom that the octopus possesses. As I have said many times before, it is ill advised to offer any octopus the opportunity to bite. Some species definitely pose a risk due to their venom (Hapalochlaena, O. motuti, to a lesser extent O. rubescens and O. fetchi, and what about the 100 or more other species for which we have no data. Play it safe and do not invite a bite.

Roy

I think it's possible to avoid being bitten by never giving your octopus the opportunity to envelop your hand. After all, it has to get its beak in contact with your skin to be able to bite, and you can control this.

Most people who offer their hands want to contact and play with their octopuses, but its possible to play with the feeding stick or limit touching to the tips of the arms or gently rubbing between and above the eyes (yes, strange as it seems, many of our TONMO.com octopuses have enjoyed being petted in this way).

Nancy

Dan,
Maybe the bimac's pair of "blue rings" means, "I am only a little poisonous" :wink:

Monty, I knew the flamboyant was toxic, but didn't the recent study on the Nova(?) program determine they were also venomous? I thought they tested several variables (including the skin and saliva) and said all samples came back toxic, meaning it was both toxic and venomous.

Maybe I misunderstood it?

NZ's small O. huttoni (Benham) has sent a few to hospital; I receive a call or two a year from worried doctors.

What on Earth is a pajama squid?

http://www.thecephalopodpage.org/Slineolata.php

I guess these names are just made up.

What's next? Chocolate Pantyhose Squid? Grandma's Bloomers Squid?

Dan,

Glad you are OK.

Steve, you think those names are made up, you should see what people are doing to coral names. I kid you not - radioactive gorilla nipple zoanthids.

Monty, I knew the flamboyant was toxic, but didn't the recent study on the Nova(?) program determine they were also venomous? I thought they tested several variables (including the skin and saliva) and said all samples came back toxic, meaning it was both toxic and venomous.

Maybe I misunderstood it?

As far as I've been able to tell, the results have never been published in anything that google scholar indexes, which is usually a pretty good representation of all scientific literature. (I searched for "norman metasepia," "metasepia toxin," and "metasepia venom" with no meaningful results.) So as far as I can tell, the only report of this is the Nova show.

I just went back to my recording, and re-listened. They mentioned that they looked for toxin in the saliva and ink during the "build up suspense, will it be toxic or not" part, but when reporting the results, Mark Norman said:

"It turns out the flamboyant cuttlefish is toxic. It's as toxic as a blue-ringed octopus... it's actually poisonous flesh: the muscles themselves are poisonous... the toxin itself is not known, it's some completely different class of toxins..."

It could just be bad editing, but my impression is that the only part of the animal that's toxic is the flesh. I also strikes me as oversimplified: How did they decide it was "as toxic as a blue ring?" Did they poison 100 people with blue ring venom and with metasepia flesh, and find that 80 of each group died? And if it's a toxin that's chemically different from TTX, it seems like it's comparing apples and oranges to say "it's just as toxic."

Anyway, since it's unpublished data, as far as I can tell, going on the Nova special for anything important is pretty unwise... I'd suggest avoiding being bitten by or eating metasepia, just to play it safe.

:tomato: :grad: :read: Agreed. :cheers:

When considering envenomation, you have to consider a host of variables when discussing this topic. They include species, size, depth and duration of the puncture, immune system of the victim, etc. Then there is the danger of the introduction of pathogens into the wound that has nothing to do with the venom that the octopus possesses. As I have said many times before, it is ill advised to offer any octopus the opportunity to bite. Some species definitely pose a risk due to their venom (Hapalochlaena, O. motuti, to a lesser extent O. rubescens and O. fetchi, and what about the 100 or more other species for which we have no data. Play it safe and do not invite a bite.

Mr. O's mantle is now about the size of a lemon. The bite wasn't any deeper than previous nibbles, but it did last considerably longer--between 15 seconds and a minute perhaps. I don't believe this was the case of any external pathogens: I work in aquarium service and it isn't uncommon to have fresh cuts exposed to tank water.

Since the event I've become a bit more forceful in removing myself if he wants to bring me too close to his beak. He sure isn't afraid of me though, I can't open the lid without him coming up and trying to climb out and squirt me!

Dan

I honestly believe differences in bites have less to do with differential reactions than it does with whether or not the octopus actually envenomates and to what degree that it does...

I just compare this to a bite from a venomous snake, since they are my main hobby, along with aquariums. Any snakebite can be different; you can be bitten by the most venomous snake on Earth (inland taipan), but have no reaction at all. It's called a dry bite, which is exactly what it is. The snake bites, but no venom is pumped (or dripped) into the bite. However, you could also be bitten by something as common as a copperead, and he might pump you full, resulting in a worse reaction than the one from the Taipan! Speaking of snakes: Jean, you are really lucky to live in NZ, a place so full of herpetoculture!

OUCH! Maybe he was just having a bad day and took it out on you! :P So, do you plan on playing any more games of tug-of-war?

Mr. O's mantle is now about the size of a lemon.
That's just rude! When did you see my mantle? It's as big as a dinner plate, thank you, and has seriously evil barbs and rotating spikey things too, and big beaks!

That's just rude! When did you see my mantle? It's as big as a dinner plate, thank you, and has seriously evil barbs and rotating spikey things too, and big beaks!

And are you also venomous? :lol:

And are you also venomous? :lol:
Some might say .... after a few things that have happened around this place (work) this last week I think it's about time someone experienced a bite, rather than plain-old-ineffectual bark.

of course, you could just hide an unpreserved squid in their car...

And that is why some of us don't drive. :roll:

Speaking of snakes: Jean, you are really lucky to live in NZ, a place so full of herpetoculture!

No snakes in NZ! Just geckos, skinks and Tuatara!

J

Some might say .... after a few things that have happened around this place (work) this last week I think it's about time someone experienced a bite, rather than plain-old-ineffectual bark.

I posess the courtesy to have used "Dr. O" for you! :smile:

No snakes in NZ! Just geckos, skinks and Tuatara!

J

Hey, geckos are cool.:smile: :wink:

Hey, geckos are cool.:smile: :wink:

I agree, but I have a real soft spot for the Tuatara. Our aquarium had one for some 60 years and she was still there when I first started in Marine Science. She was called Toots and periodically had to be placed on a diet and on an exercise regime (which she DID NOT appreciate!). Unfortunately she died a few years back due partly to old age (she was likely over 100 as she had been an adult when she arrived) and but mostly (:cry:) due to the fact that she liked the occasional triplefin (a rock pool fish) as a treat, turned out they were much too fatty and contained liver flukes that were just as happy inside Toots as in a fish.

This is one of the reasons I have food and feeding as such a hobby horse! She was a grand old girl and could conceivably have lived another 10 or so years.

J

I agree, but I have a real soft spot for the Tuatara.
J

The tuatara, one of the most lethal of NZs native animals (entirely accurate if slightly misleading :wink: ). I was surprised when I first found ut how soft thier skin is.

I want an octopus but now im terrified of being bitten. DO they bite alot or is it extremely rare. And can a Bimac fit into a 46 gallon aquarium?

I want an octopus but now im terrified of being bitten. DO they bite alot or is it extremely rare. And can a Bimac fit into a 46 gallon aquarium?

It's comparatively rare, you just need to be aware that they can bite and interact with them using a feeding stick rather than with your fingers!

j

I want an octopus but now im terrified of being bitten. DO they bite alot or is it extremely rare. And can a Bimac fit into a 46 gallon aquarium?

Bimacs can bite occasionally (scroll back to the start of this thread!) but they seem to be less likely to than others. If you're careful, you can pretty much never give it a chance to bite.

46 gallons is a little smaller than the recommended 55 gallon minimum for a bimac... maybe some of the folks who have kept bimacs will chime on on whether adding extra filtration and a sump to a 46 might be enough, although I think Nancy mentioned that people saw them showing signs of being cramped, like bumping into walls and such, when kept in tanks smaller than 55.