i was hoping you experts in octopus behavior could help me with this one. as you all know the octopus has a short lifespan, a birth, a growth period, just long enough to mate, reproduction, then death. this simple sequence of events makes it seem as though the octo has only one purpose in life, to mate and reproduce. and yet they are so intelligent. the reason for this is not apparent to me, i see no reason for them to be intelligent, they just are. :confused:

Well, take a long hard look at Homo sapiens, and I think you'll draw a very similar conclusion.

If intelligence enhances the chances of reproduction, it can and will become a selective pressurepoint. The more intrigueing question is probably why octopus are so intelligent without having any social structures...

what was their closest ancestor with a social system. i could be wrong but didn't they first orrigionate from cuttlefish

what was their closest ancestor with a social system. i could be wrong but didn't they first orrigionate from cuttlefish

Umm... no, they didn't originate from cuttlefish.

See this thread.
http://www.tonmo.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4705

Or this (http://www.tonmo.com/science/fossils/fossiloctopuses.php) one

Umm... no, they didn't originate from cuttlefish.

See this thread.
http://www.tonmo.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4705

no need to make me feel like a moron with your "umm... no":sad:

no need to make me feel like a moron with your "umm... no":sad:

Sorry, I wasn't trying to make you feel like a moron, sorry. It is an interesting question, we don't really know how social fossil cephalopods were...

i could be wrong but didn't they first orrigionate from cuttlefish

No, almost certainly not I'm afraid Bob. The common ancestor of cuttlefish and octopus probably existed way back in the Devonian, a strange primitive internally shelled ceph in a time so distant that it even predated the ammonoids. It's hard to be certain given the lack of fossils, but cuttles probably evolved from the Teuthid squids in the Cretaceous or possibly the early Tertiary, though it is possible they had a lineage that linked to the earlier belemnoids. Octopus evolved along an entirely seperate lineage post-Devonian.

At least that's how I understand it. If anyone knows any different, please shout.

As Cuttlegirl says, it's impossible to determine social organisation amongst fossil coleoid cephalopods.

because phil is humble and all, i'll trumpet his chart:

http://www.tonmo.com/science/fossils/cephages.php

Ah, thanks WK sir. It was cobbled together out of a couple of charts in Clarkson's Invertebrate Palaeontology and Evolution, so please don't think I invented it! The whole area around cuttlefish/squid should be riddled with question marks as to ancestral lineages, as that whole area is highly speculative.

they have a social system in our house. they are the bosses and we are the masters keepers! ( i thought it deserved a exclamation point). zy

:lol:

Ah, thanks WK sir. It was cobbled together out of a couple of charts in Clarkson's Invertebrate Palaeontology and Evolution, so please don't think I invented it!

Pfft. At least you went to the trouble of making little pictures of the critters.... :grin:

If intelligence enhances the chances of reproduction, it can and will become a selective pressurepoint. The more intrigueing question is probably why octopus are so intelligent without having any social structures...

I'm going to take a stab in the dark here and suggest that social structure and opportunistic cannabalism are mutually exclusive survival strategies. :twocents:

I'm going to take a stab in the dark here and suggest that social structure and opportunistic cannabalism are mutually exclusive survival strategies. :twocents:

hmmm if you annoy me I"LL EAT YOU!, has a certain ring to it, doesn't it? :lol:

Could be useful when dealing with recalcitrant students, I can just see it as my door plate..............:lol: :lol:

J

I'm going to take a stab in the dark here and suggest that social structure and opportunistic cannabalism are mutually exclusive survival strategies. :twocents:


I can't say I would agree with that. In your neck of the woods, the Maoris come to mind as social and occasionally canabalistic. As for my own lineage, quite a few native american cultures, particularly Central and Southern, have practiced canabalism.

I can't say I would agree with that. In your neck of the woods, the Maoris come to mind as social and occasionally canabalistic. As for my own lineage, quite a few native american cultures, particularly Central and Southern, have practiced canabalism.

Dosidicus seems to be both social and have opportunistic cannibalism, too. I also recently saw a talk on swarm behavior by a researcher who found that locust (and mormon cricket) swarming is driven by cannibalism as well, when food becomes scarce, so it's actually directly tied to group behavior.

[QUOTE=Jean;93116]hmmm if you annoy me I"LL EAT YOU!, has a certain ring to it, doesn't it? :lol:

Could be useful when dealing with recalcitrant students, I can just see it as my door plate..............:lol: :lol:

J[/QUOTE

Go for it, Jean. :lol:

hmmm if you annoy me I"LL EAT YOU!, has a certain ring to it, doesn't it? :lol:

Could be useful when dealing with recalcitrant students, I can just see it as my door plate..............:lol: :lol:

J

I was thinking it would be more useful on dates... Keep your tentacles to yourself or I'LL EAT YOU! It would have helped me on a few occasions.

(not touching that one with a 10' pole) :lol:

(not touching that one with a 10' pole) :lol:

Good call... :grin:

I was thinking it would be more useful on dates... Keep your tentacles to yourself or I'LL EAT YOU! It would have helped me on a few occasions.

that too!!

J

I can't say I would agree with that. In your neck of the woods, the Maoris come to mind as social and occasionally canabalistic. As for my own lineage, quite a few native american cultures, particularly Central and Southern, have practiced canabalism.

There's rather a difference, with Maori and I'm reasonably certain most cultures which have ever practised cannabilism it served a ritual role and was less common than is often pictured, in effect the cannabalism itself served a social role.

Whereas with octo's (from what I understand) members of your own species are seen as a perfectly viable food source, taking a primarily dietary role, although I don't know whether they are considered more or less preferable to other species.

its obvious, they are only showing us what we want to see. they are secretly making an O.S.a.C.A (octopus, squid, and cuttlefish alliance) to take over all of humanity and flood the earth, so that they can feast on the land animals. its SOOOO obvious.