The following has been relayed to me by Miss Gwenith Penry, who has very kindly given me permission to post these images online. I am at a complete loss as to what this animal is ... a complete loss!!

Can anyone shed any light on this?

Unknown Sea creature sighting

During the 09.30 dolphin watching cruise on the 27/03/2007 an unidentified animal was spotted.
Company: Ocean Safaris
Vessel: Dolphin 1 (approx 8m)
Crew: Skipper – Steve . Guide: Marlon
12 other crew members including myself and the other 4 volunteers from the Centre for Dolphin Studies.


Visual Description.

Size- 30-40cm long and around 5-10cm thick around anterior end, and 2-5cm thick posterior skirt.
Grey colour on dorsal side of body. Pale ventral. Red/white bands around edges of ‘skirt’ Orange/brown patch on ventral surface behind the ‘vent’.
Skirt – This appears to be a membranous tissue on the posterior end of the body, mostly grey but with banding around the edges. On close inspection of the photographs this looks like a thin layer of ‘skin’ that ‘flaps’ like a ray. The banded area looks like 2 separate appendages that do not join, but the ends meet.

Anterior – very distinctive ‘nose’/ trunk like protrusion which appears to be able to move independently of the rest of the body. Small grooves run from the tip of the underside of the ‘nose’, towards the middle underside and around the side of the body towards the vent. There was a notable inflation of the ‘melon’ as the animal surfaced and this then deflated as it dived.
2 (visible) circular indentations on dorsal surface near the beginning of the ‘skirt’

Movement – slow swimming, possibly using the ‘vents’ on the side of the body to propel it forward. It moved with the ‘nose’ end leading. One photograph shows a ‘footprint’ left behind the animal.

Behaviour - First spotted just below the surface (~ 30cm), it then surfaced and swam towards the boat, stopped and lifted the ‘nose’ towards us as if sensing something in front of it.

There was a group of about 200+ bottlenose dolphins in the area, feeding on small fish. They did not appear interested in the creature, nor it by them.
Relatively calm sea conditions, sea state 1, slight easterly swell. Water depth, <25m.

Photographs taken by Miss Gwenith Penry, and the volunteers at the centre for Dolphin Studies. Attempts are being made to contact the paying clients from the dolphin cruise, in order to access any photographs that they may have taken.

And one more.

I should have said, the photos were taken in South Africa

I'm glad you didn't post this on April 1!

Very, very strange.

In case it helps any (yeah, right) if we number the pics in the order Steve posted, chronologically they were taken in 2 4 3 1 over about 11 seconds.

At first look I would say it's a blanket octopus (Themoctopodidae). You can see what looks to be the cephalic water pores on the head.

Hi MBG; we've discounted Tremoctopus already. We'd been discussing this elsewhere, and have only just now received permission to post the images here. Elsewhere we have drawn a complete blank.
Cheers

A person that might now if you have not asked already is Mark Norman.

My current thoughts are some type of ray, or an odd sunfish like the sharptailed sunfish, Masturus lanceolatus. Even still, it would have fins on the side... hmmm... can see I will be dreaming of this creature tonight...

http://www.amonline.net.au/fishes/fishfacts/fish/mlanceolatus.htm

I have no clue what this is. So, in the lack of a name, I will name it untill such time a name is found. Now lets see. It looks like a big liver...floating in the ocean....with stripes on it. I shall call it Hepatomares striata.

Incredible!! Did it appear disoriented or look sick at all? Maybe it came up from the depths of the deep blue because of this? Did it swim away or dive down.....or did the boat eventually keep on cruising and left it as is? It kind of has that "ceph" look to it. Extremely curious I am....

... I would say it's a strange type of man eating jellyfish? The bottom stipey part really looks like a bell, which says Cnidarian to me! but then again those holes in picture 4 do look ALOT like syphon-y ceph type stuff... :D

Not for a moment a serious suggestion, but I can dream...it looks to me akin to some kind of vampyromorph cephalopod.

The striped structures could be short arms tucked in around the 'head', note how they are asymmetrical in picture 3 implying that they are not part of the 'mantle' but capable of independent movement. Wrinkling observable in picture 2 suggests that arms, or even a web, may be present tucked down between the striped lobes. The two circular structures could be analogous to Vampyroteuthis photophores but migrated forwards. Picture 4 seems to depict some form of internal strengthening structure under the mantle - some kind of gladius perhaps?

Perhaps the Vampire Squid isn't alone afterall? Certainly it looks prehistoric, though I'd have to draw the line at Anomalocaris as was suggested to me privately in jest...

Quite an interesting sight!

Looks like a dolphin with a squid over its head.

Oh yeah, that's a bottlenose cuttlefish, I have 3 of those in my tank here at home!

(Honestly, I have NO idea)...

Cool, though!

Giant pelagic slug??? I don't get a very squidly vibe about those photos. Pretty amazing looking, whatever it is. I wonder if the movement was fluid rather than something that may be injured.

I thought we'd put this one to bed?

Dancing Sea Slug

Fits all the parameters, and colour pattern...also, the convolutions of the body along with the questing forward "nose".

:shock: Greg, you're not calling that a slug are you? No, No, No, No, No ....

Sorry, but I showed the pic to a bunch of divers (one of them, unfortunately, a fish collector) and they all said without hesitation...
Dancing Sea Slug

http://www.seaslug.info/display.cfm?id=3789

I don't see it...

No, No, No, No, No, No, No .....!!

Time to call in the man himself, Dr Bill Rudman. That's no nudibranch. Now, how to dial the man .....

If that's a nudibranch then I'll shout you all weekend at TONMOcon!

Well, I'd prefer you bought me a pint or two...but being shouted at by Dr. O'Shea will have to do...

Have some photos inbound, apparently...will post them as they arrive, of a similar looking...DANCING SEA SLUG.

That is definitely very cool. I thought the second picture looked like some kind of a Nautilus, but the others certainly did not. It would be really neat if it turns out to be something yet to be named.

Well, I'd prefer you bought me a pint or two...but being shouted at by Dr. O'Shea will have to do...

What would you prefer? A shout, a drink, or a cuddle?

How about all three, with a large helping of brekkie's ? :lol:

I cast my vote in Greg's direction. Nudi/slug was my immediate first impression. Unfortunately, my vote doesn't count as my exposure is almost non-existent.

Eeeeek.

I've had a pm exchange with someone (work account) from a museum with the suggestion that it was some variety of pelagic holothurian. It is equally possible ... certainly has me scratching my head.

I haven't heard back from Dr Rudman yet, although did drop him a line. It is Easter, so I sincerely hope he is not at work (unlike my sad self!). On that note I think it is time for me to trundle on home.

pelagic holothurian

The deuce, you say!

Although I think the odds may be with Greg (although it doesn't look like any spanish dancer pic I've ever seen), I would be pleased mightily by this, since googling for "pelagic holothurian" primarily yields Burgess Shale references like Eldonia. (like here (http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0022-3360%28197407%2948%3A4%3C750%3ASPOELW%3E 2.0.CO%3B2-Z&size=LARGE) )

Of course, there is some stuff on modern swimming cucumbers, too, for example, this pdf from the Smithsonian (http://www.sil.si.edu/smithsoniancontributions/MarineSciences/pdf_hi/SCMS-0035.pdf)... they look about as much like our mystery animal as the Spanish Dancer pics do, although the pics aren't as good. But the mystery animal doesn't seem so radially symmetric... :confused:

I would like to offer an identification of this creature. In fact, I can hardly contain my excitment at these photos. This appears to be exactly the creature I have been hypothesizing for years as the true identity of both typical Lake Monsters and Sea Serpents.

I am currently writing a book titled "A Wizard's Bestiary," with extensive chapters on the Kraken, Sea Serpents, and Lake Monsters. Here is an excerpt from my chapter on Lake Monsters, which I consider to be a freshwater variant of a group of as-yet-unrecognized marine Opisthobranchs (for the referenced figures, you'll just have to wait until December, when the book comes out!).

However, I would very much like to include some of these photos and description in my book--what a fantastic Appendix it would make! If Miss Gwenith Penry is on this forum, would you please contact me regarding permission? thank you!

--Oberon Zell
________________________________________ __

In studying accounts of Lake Monster sightings, especially close-up encounters, it is striking how often the creatures are described as “wormy,” “slimy,” and “repulsive” in texture. Of the creature she saw swimming up Logh Fadda in 1954, Georgina Carberry reported: It was “…wormy. You know—creepy. The body seemed to have movement all over it all the time.”4 George Spicer, who, with his wife, saw the Loch Ness Monster crossing the road on July 22, 1933, said the animal was “horrible—an abomination;” its skin was a “terrible, dark elephant grey, of a loathsome texture, reminiscent of a snail.” Regarding his sighting of creature on shore of Loch Ness, on Sept. 30, 1974, Dick Jenkyns said: “I felt that the beast was obscene. This feeling of obscenity still persists and the whole thing put me in mind of a gigantic stomach with a long writhing gut attached.”4 Spicer said it had “an undulating sort of neck, a little thicker than an elephant’s trunk,” which was contorted into half-loops, and that it looked like “a huge snail with a long neck.”

Another feature that becomes apparent upon examination of many reports and drawings is the rubbery elasticity of the neck and body, which may extend to become long and thin, or contract to become short and stubby. The length of the neck, in particular, may vary “from two or three feet to as much as ten feet in length, and a foot in diameter.”9 Rare sightings of the creatures on land often describe their movements as “caterpillar-like.” During the night of Sept. 30, 1965, two motorists independently saw a 20-ft-long creature “humped like a giant caterpillar” moving slowly on the road verge, not far from the River Tay on the A85 road between Perth and Dundee in Scotland.

This flexibility is clearly apparent from the series of drawings made by Torquil MacLeod of his sighting through binoculars of the creature partially out of the water upon the opposite shore of Loch Ness, on Feb. 28, 1960.9 (Fig. 18) Similar proportions and apparent flexibility can be seen in one of the few unambiguously authentic photos of Nessie, taken by Hugh Gray in November of 1933.

Also, both eyewitness reports and photos of the head (Fig. 20) have indicated extensible horn-like antennae similar to those of snails and slugs. (Fig. 21) Indeed, Tim Dinsdale notes that “sometimes, on top of the head two small projections are seen like ‘the horns on a snail,’ and the eyes (which are not often seen) are like ‘slits in a darning needle,’ and they are ‘bright and glittering.’” Regarding a sighting of Feb. 22, 1968 in beat bog called Lough Nahooin in Connemara, Ireland: “Both Mr and Mrs [Stephen] Coyne agreed that the creature was about 12 feet long and both agreed that they saw no eyes. Mrs Coyne told us that she noticed two horn-like projections on top of the head.” 4 Regarding a sighting in Loch Ness on Nov. 17, 1976, which he photographed, Cornish Wizard Tony “Doc” Shiels noted: “The head had horns, stumpy little things…the head was extremely ugly, like a big snail’s head with those odd little stalks.”

And perhaps most telling of all, a Welsh legend of a local “Wyvern” first translated into English in 1921, states: “At times one could see it creeping with hateful, stealthy movements, here and there upon the fertile slopes of Moel Offrum, jerking its cumbersome form into uncanny humps as it made its way in quest of food, and leaving a slimy trail behind it.” Such “slimy trails” are uniquely characteristic of snails and slugs.

For these reasons, I conclude that “Nessie,” “Chessie,” “Champ,” “Morag” and the like are probably giant aquatic slugs, long-necked and “horned” like a garden snail, perhaps with a variety of subspecies.
The Opisthobranchia (sea slugs) are a highly-evolved order of gastropods, with hundreds of radically diverse species of which only marine forms are currently recognized. They have small eyes and several sensitive horn-like feelers at the front of their heads, used for orientation and olfaction. The sides of the foot have evolved into parapodia, fleshy winglike outgrowths. In several suborders, such as the Thecosomata and Gymnosomata, these are used like fins to move in a swimming motion.

In 1975, based upon underwater photos obtained in 1972 by the Academy of Applied Science (Fig. 22), the official name of Nessiteras rhombopteryx (“Ness wonder with diamond-shaped fins”) was bestowed upon the Loch Ness Monster by Sir Peter Scott. Interestingly, the Greek word pteras (“fin”) also means “wing,” suggesting a basis for legends of “winged” dragons. But if these creatures are actually aquatic mollusks, as I believe them to be, the highly-positioned diamond-shaped “fin” for which they are named would probably be an operculum (Latin: “little lid”), a flap covering the gill opening, which in sea slugs is located below the neck and just behind the heart, rather than behind the head as in fish and amphibians. Exactly the position indicated in photos, drawings, and eyewitness reports.

A Reconstruction
In 1987, I sculpted a model of the Loch Ness Monster based on a synthesis of all recorded descriptions and drawings. (Fig 23) I believe it to be as accurate a representation as possible until we can manage to obtain a physical specimen. Furthermore, I believe that the erroneous assumption that these creatures are vertebrates (especially plesiosaurs) has misdirected previous attempts at capture. Future efforts might more productively search for larval stages by dredging the bottom muck of the lochs—or even better, some of the many Irish bogs and marshes rumored to harbor smaller and probably related “bog-dogs,” “horse-eels,” or Kelpies. This is the approach currently being undertaken by marine biologist Steven O’Shea in his successful search for Architeuthis (giant squid) larvae amid the oceanic zooplankton.

Assuming that these creatures are actually gigantic freshwater aquatic slugs, what other correlations may possibly be made with historical traditions of “Orms”? One of these is their vile toxicity, which is said to burn the skin and poison wells, springs, pools, and the very ground beneath them. The slimy skin of many opisthobranchs contains distasteful and sometimes toxic chemicals as a defense against predation. Others have special stinging cells or toxic glands, which in some cases are used to paralyze their prey.

A recurring theme in myths is that of “dragon’s teeth”—seemingly the only recoverable remains, as no skulls, skins, or other expected trophies of slain orms or dragons have ever been exhibited. A slug’s teeth—its only hard parts—are not in jaws as in vertebrates, but on a flexible tongue or radula, which is a ribbon of precisely arranged teeth like a rasp, used for scraping or grasping its food.17 A dead slug simply dissolves into a pool of goo, and only the teeth remain.

The keeled humps reported in virtually all sightings of lake monsters are particularly interesting in this context. (Fig. 14) The number of these varies with the length of the animal, as there seems to be a maximum size limit of about 5-ft for each hump. “Most peculiar of all, people have actually reported the humps changing shape.”9 Since the creatures are commonly reported to rise and sink vertically, these humps are most likely to be gas-filled flotation chambers, much like the swim bladders of fishes. (Fig. 24) In fish, these closed organs are precursors of lungs, and are filled with respiratory air extracted from the water. But in gigantic muck-dwelling aquatic slugs, the gas which fills such chambers would more likely be derived from the digestive process, and would therefore consist of methane, or “marsh gas.” And, as everyone knows, this gas is highly flammable. In order to sink vertically, the creature would have to evacuate gas, and the most logical orifice would be the mouth, which is not used for breathing. And if these creatures happen to possess bioelectrical faculties like those found in certain eels and other fish which inhabit murky waters (utilizing electrical discharges both to navigate and to stun prey), then electric sparks could be used to ignite the expelled gas, and we would have fire-breathing dragons. What an impressive defense mechanism that would make!

And finally, when the gas-filled “humps” are evacuated, they would flatten into the apparent dorsal “fin” occasionally reported, as in the monster of Lake Khaiyr, Russia.

In 1975, based upon underwater photos obtained in 1972 by the Academy of Applied Science (Fig. 22), the official name of Nessiteras rhombopteryx (“Ness wonder with diamond-shaped fins”) was bestowed upon the Loch Ness Monster by Sir Peter Scott.

Equally interesting is that "Nessiteras rhombopteryx" is an anagram of "Monster hoax by Sir Peter S"
cheers:hmm:

I plump for a Sea Hare. Compare the patterning with the picture on the top right in this link, click here (http://www.starthrower.org/products/DDDB/DDDB_050-099/DDDB_052%20sea%20hare.htm). Also have a look at this (http://www.blue-planet-kayak.com/images/seahare.html), and this (http://i5.tinypic.com/157madg.jpg).

However, I think I may have actually found a specific species that looks even closer via patternation. The Sea Hare Aplysia brasiliana (http://www.medslugs.de/D/Atl-SW/Aplysia_brasiliana_01.htm) bears a remarkable resemblance. Imagine the fins on the following image tucked in around the head with it held in a downwards posture below them masking it from view, thus appearing to foreshorten the animal to the viewer.

Also worth a look. (http://hooge.developmentalbiology.com/aplysia/)

Slug.....I vote for the Slug......:roll:

How do these images persuade you chaps?

http://www.seaslugforum.net/display.cfm?id=12434

http://www.seaslugforum.net/display.cfm?id=16074

30-40 cm is one BIG sea slug... I have seen big Aplysias before but usually around 25-30 cm. I have never seen the big ones swim before, only the little ones (about 10 cm or so). While the patterning looks the same, the body with the siphon, holes, eyes, whatever does not remind me of a sea slug...

Hi All

I have had contact with the South African Museum about the same pictures and I am pretty sure it is Tremoctopus. See attached picture. In the South African pics the arms are pulled in, which is confusing. However, the rest of the photographs resemble the attached pic I would say.

Regards Henk-Jan

Nemertean?

PS

I should add that the picture comes from a pdf presentation by Dr G. Pierce (http://www.soest.hawaii.edu/PFRP/nov06mtg/pierce.pdf). Also the ID of the animal has been checked by Dr L. Compagno with Tremoctopus specimens from the South African museum and the ID was confirmed.

Regards Henk-Jan

I dunno, the protruding snozzle thing doesn't really sit with Tremoctopus as far as I can see, although yes the colouring is similar.

"very distinctive ‘nose’/ trunk like protrusion which appears to be able to move independently of the rest of the body".

It looks very sluggy to me, but I'm a landlocked landlubber so what do I know?

It's a shucked ammonite.:wink:

At the moment, big swimming sea hare leads the non-ceph race, IMO. But, I gotta tell ya, my first thought was ceph. My after-a-glance thoughts were that it looked like some kind of finned cephalopod floating inverted, possibly with air trapped in the mantle, and that the twin pits on the top might be pouches for filamental tentacles...arms contracted or bitten off...etc.

But it also looks like a big swimming sea hare. As for the nudibranch theory, the head-on shot of the shnozzle thing reminds me of the business end of pelagic nudibranch.

AWESOME pictures. What a weird thing.

Cheers,
Clem

Torn. Colour and "zebra" pattern shout Tremoctopus!!! as loudly as Steve will at Greg during TonMoCon, yet the dimensions are just "wrong" and there needs to be a lot of allowance for arms being tucked away, etc. There seems to be fins ("winglets") on the sides of the creature that have something to do with sea hares, and holes where gills should have been, were this to be a nudibranch, that are in the wrong place for T. violaceus...

Edit: Winglets appear to be mantle opening, openings are in the right place on second thought,..., it's the trunklike thingamabob that bothers me...

Torn
Torn? Torn what? Torn off, apart, up, to pieces? Rip Torn?

Torn between two species, but as far as I'm concerned the most likely candidate is Tremoctopus violaceus, especially because of lateral mantle openings and pores on top, see 1st pic for comparison. Included as 2nd pic a ventral view with "zebra" striping obvious on webbing and the exact same orange colour as seen in the SA picture posted seperately by Steve at the start of this thread.

I would also not be surprised if the "trunk" appears to be angled because of simple diffraction and it is merely a pointy mantle. The 3rd pic is attached as an indication of "pointiness" in this species.

I am a novice when it comes to marine biology, but I do have an interest and I think cephalopods are cool. Looking at this post I am fairly convinced that the mystery creature is tremoctopus. Here are some visual comparisons of the photos already presented on this post that helped me with this conclusion:

Swimming style of Sea Hares:

http://img258.imageshack.us/img258/9013/swimmingbehaviorseahairsq9.jpg

They seem to have a very typical body shape and swimming behavior that does not look similar to the mystery photos. The mystery animal seems to lack the large, skirt/wing like appendages. Also, the sea hares seem to keep elongated for the most part with thinner structures both forward and behind the animal, features also apparently not present in the mystery animal.

Also notice the color patterns, they are very mottled and there is rarely a smooth coloration even on a portion of the sea hares, unlike the smoothly colored animal in question.

The portion of the sea hare that is mantle like in appearance, as far as I know, lacks the holes visible in the mystery animal.

More Texture and Morphological Differences from Mystery Animal and Sea Hares:

http://img258.imageshack.us/img258/8454/seaharetextureshl2.jpg

The stalk like appendages do not appear in the mystery photos as far as one can see. The animal could be inverted.

Similarities Between Tremoctopus and Mystery Animal:

http://img49.imageshack.us/img49/1033/tremoctocomparisonls0.jpg

Notice that the mystery animal, when alligned with a top view of tremocto, has a similar proportionality in features. This could be flawed to some degree in the comparison due to different perspectives in the photos and the size of the animal in each is unkown. However, the two holes are present in both, coloration is smooth and similar, and other parts of the mantle seem to be a match for the mystery animal. Swimming behavior of both also seems alike.

The big difference is the lack of tentacles in the mystery animal. It seems to me that they could be tucked-in in the mystery photo. Using Occam's Razor, it seems easier to me that this would be something similar to tremocto with tucked or missing tentacles instead of a sea hare that has lost its wings, is swimming oddly, has tucked or lost other anatomical features, and has a rare coloration.

As for nudibranchs, the branching structures seem to be absent in the mystery animal, and again, coloration and wing structures are also not visible.

This is the weakness of relying soley on photos. You cannot always get a descriptive angle and the animal may not be in a typical pose, meaning one can draw many conlcusions and imagine just about anything:) Goodluck, I really look forward to the verdict!

Well, as we were basically posting a similar post at the exact same time, I guess you can count me in, positively :wink:

Certainly OB:) I did not mean to repeat your post. I only saw your first pic when I grabbed it. Your second picture clearly shows that tremocto can have the striping visible in the mystery animal, one of the things that had not been posted previously. Good job!:)

Could the octopus be feeding on something, if that is what it is? I am not familiar with why an octopus would swim with tentacles tucked in other than for mimicry, which I have not seen performed at the surface. Illness, as stated previously, is also a good reason for why an animal might behave funky:)

When the female T. violaceus swims, she usually tucks in both ventral pairs 3 and 4 and leaves pair 1 (short, with large webbing attached) trailing and pair 2 (long) in support of the webbing, but I wouldn't know why there couldn't be different modes of swimming out there. Pair 2 can be quite contracted and stiff, almost like a hoop, or relaxed and extented, I guess it's merely a case of the former with this lady here.

Your comparison of the the swimming specimens just below the surface shows the earlier positive ID to be of even more pointy mantleshape than the SA one.

Found some more tremoctopus pics...That gets my vote.

http://uwpresse.com/SERVER/reportages/MARINE_LIFE/TREMOCTOPUS/index.html

The pics already posted are better, so I didn't direct-link the ones I found.

Learning a LOT today! :wink:

Thanks for reviving that link! This picture actually shows the stiff bowlike posture for pair 2 rather well.

There is one other explanation though ... has anyone heard of people dumping vast quantities of "bad" formaldehyde into the waters around South Africa?;) I recently saw a documentary which illustrated very clearly the effects this might have on marine life:)

:lol: and :welcome:

I don't know a lot about mairne biology yet, but I've been trying to find what this is on the internet. I think it looks kind of like a sixgill stingray to me, and they are found off the waters of South Africa.

http://www.fishbase.org/identification/specieslist.cfm?famcode=44&areacode=

I Love Calamari (welcome to TONMO by the way, and what an excellent first posting :welcome: ) and Ob's posts are certainly very persuasive, however I think you may be working too much from the photos, and as you say, it's really difficult to make comparisons from such a limited range of pictures and angles.


I would also not be surprised if the "trunk" appears to be angled because of simple diffraction and it is merely a pointy mantle. The 3rd pic is attached as an indication of "pointiness" in this species.

That's a really good point, however Dr. Steve relays that the witness claims the 'trunk' was 'very distinctive' and that it 'appears to be able to move independently of the rest of the body'. I'd also be interested to know why Dr Steve discounted Tremoctopus, but I guess he's gone home for Easter now. However, I've got to admit Ob, that you are the undisputed master of ceph image analysis and you and I Love Calamari have posted some very convincing analysis, but I still think the jury's out and it's not over until Neil Diamond sings.

Thank you Ob and CapnNemo!

There is still room for debate, but I would lean towards another ceph as opposed to any other animals mentioned thus far. It simply lacks many traits (physiological and behavioral, though the behavior thing is guessing at this point based on swimming photos of all) compared to sea hares, nudibranchs, and rays. The ray just mentioned is very bumpy in appearance, has a tail, and a very pointed snout. Based on my experience with how rays swim, the wave like motion would have been apparent in the mystery photos and to the witnesses.

It also has in common, I think somewhat plainly, morphological features found in the tremoctopus and other cephalopods like a thing that looks like a mantle, things that look like vents and are in the right place, it is swimming in the right direction, has a very similar coloration, etc.

As for what the witnesses described, all we have really are the photos without talking directly to them. It has to be taken as hear-say for the most part. I work at a zoo and you would not believe (you might) what people describe or assume about the animals they are viewing at that time, right next to me. I cannot imagine what they may say when they get home. Meerkats quickly become "hairy possums" and the like. Behavior gets even more distorted. IMO, the pics have to speak for themselves right now, which can be unfortunate.

'I love Calamari', a warm :welcome: indeed, and as CapnNemo has said already, that was a mighty professional and academic entry into the realms of TONMO! (It appears you know a little more about marine biology than you give yourself credit for.) CapnN, I just awoke ... couldn't keep me away from this one!

As attractive as Tremoctopus appears to some, it just does nothing for me, but that's a personal opinion only. All pictures of Tremoctopus posted thus far/online look exactly like Tremoctopus. Every Tremoctopus I have seen looks just like Tremoctopus. Tremoctopus looks like Tremoctopus, and nothing else on this planet (it is quite dissimilar to Argonauta and Ocythoe, the two most similar/related cephs out there). At 30cm total length this would also have to be a rather small Tremoctopus, as Tremoctopus grows quite large (nothing wrong with being small; it's just an observation). How many times can I use the word Tremoctopus in a paragraph? I see nothing at all on any of the 4 images that looks remotely like a mantle; I see nothing that remotely resembles an arm or a web; I see nothing, other than a smooth skin that remotely resembles a cephalopod; I see absolutely nothing that remotely resembles an opisthobranch either.

Of all posts thus far, again, just my personal opinion, I favour Heather's - a ray, minus a tail, leaning towards this being vertebrate as opposed to invertebrate.

I don't know what a dolphin placenta looks like ... or what a mutant dolphin looks like (mutant as a consequence of some chemical, metal or radioactive discharge into South African waters), but this thing is just so bizarre that I'll consider anything right now.

...Based on the recent posts, I'm inclined to think Tremoctopus now, too. However, what I don't see in the mystery pics - and this may be due to vagaries of lighting, angle and camera interaction - is any of the pronounced irridescence that Tremoctopus photographed at surface usually displays. At the White Shark Trust, here's a link to their archives (2004) and pics of what's provisionally ID'd as the species in question: Click here, (http://www.whitesharktrust.org/assistant/gallery/2004b/apr04e.html) ceph pics about one-third of the way down the page. The Trust's members were hosted by Shark Diving Unlimited (http://www.sharkdivingunlimited.com/contact.htm), which operates out of Gansbaii, South Africa. The pics taken above the surface show a full-spectrum animal, very like the ones already posted here; underwater pics show a brick-red one. At surface, mystery critter doesn't really match up, but perhaps Tremoctopus in distress would look that way, or maybe other people on the boat took pics that do show irridescence and bright patterning. Also, I recognize that if the arms were curled in upon themselves and compressed then we'd get something like the freaky sphincter-like visage in the 2nd pic, but if that's Tremoctopus, it's doing a mean imitation of a ceph that's swallowed its arms.

Steve, I don't see a ray there, unless you know of a ray that has a variable-geometry head with a truly freaky arrangement of lobes on it. It really looks like an invertebrate, to me, with enough features in common with Tremoctopus to get me nodding. However, being hopeful, I also wonder if might be something new.

Cheers,
Adam

...but this thing is just so bizarre that I'll
consider anything right now.


Anything?


http://www.scifimoviepage.com/images/feb_a.jpg

Above post: Reminds me of a alien mother ship.

...my bet would be a Tremoctopus, the shape doesn't strike me like a ray, nor a giant man eating jellyfish, sea hare or nudibranch. Some very good analysis work on the photos there.

Of all posts thus far, again, just my personal opinion, I favour Heather's - a ray, minus a tail, leaning towards this being vertebrate as opposed to invertebrate.



I only said ray because the holes reminded me of spiracles. Will have to post a picture of a sharp tailed mola later, because the tail of the mola really looks like the pointed part of the critter.

That being said, I am beginning to be convinced by all of the Tremoctopus photos. :bonk:
Jennifer

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/254/448850205_e74c34f4c9.jpg

:roflmao:

My problem(s) with the Tremoctopus theory is that there is no trace of any arm on this beast, nor eye, nor siphon (in the appropriate location), damage (if the arms were severed), nor evidence for the arms being 'withdrawn', suspended beneath the animal (we'd see that), or held in some sort of ball (if the animal was munching something in its web). The animal also clearly breaks the surface ... all rather odd.

I can only hope that there was some sort of video taken of this animal, additional photographs, and that Gwenith can locate them from one of the customers.

:welcome: to I Love Calamari from me, as well, and great insights, everyone. Of course, I'm not any less confused than when I first saw the pictures, but I've learned a lot about exotic sea critters that look sort-of-but-not-exactly-like the pics... It seems like many of the creatures described would have an obvious rippling motion associated with them, in particular rays and sea slugs. Part of the description says that it seems to move slowly possibly from the "vents," which doesn't seem to match that, although it also says the skirt "flaps" in the photos (which maybe implies that wasn't visible to the live witness?)

:confused: :confused:

None of the photos look exactly right, but I too am leaning toward Tremoctopus. Maybe that's just because I want it to be a ceph! :wink:

Ok, the first image is a Mola mola the second image is a sharptail mola. When they are in their larval stage changing into the adult stage, they do not have long fins. The illustration shows a mola at 37 mm long.

Above post: Reminds me of a alien mother ship.

...my bet would be a Tremoctopus, the shape doesn't strike me like a ray, nor a giant man eating jellyfish, sea hare or nudibranch. Some very good analysis work on the photos there.

:sad: i liked my man eating jellyfish idea... at the time it was a good suggestion!!!!!
:wink:
Ok, so I've been following along, and I'd have to agree with Steve... Tremoctopus is just not working... there are no signs of arms, and although the pointy thing could be a mantle... there are no signs of arms! But I also don't think it's any kind of sea hare hm... now I'm stunped. I kinda liked the ray idea, but there is also no sign of a tail or anything, so I dismissed that... as for Mola Mola... I have never seen a striped one!
THEREFORE I HAVE COME TO A NEW CONCLUSION!
... it's an alien... that's the only possible explaination!

as for Mola Mola... I have never seen a striped one!


Neither had I...

Now, keep in mind, I am probably totally wrong on this ID, but in my googling I came across a "Mola mola, seal and dolphin cruise" in South Africa. Also, I know that sea lions will rip off the fins of molas, leaving them finless...

I see nothing at all on any of the 4 images that looks remotely like a mantle; I see nothing that remotely resembles an arm or a web; I see nothing, other than a smooth skin that remotely resembles a cephalopod; I see absolutely nothing that remotely resembles an opisthobranch either.


Look closer, Steve, the mantle is obvious in the sideways view you posted, imho the eye can even be discerned in the splashy bit, just where it should be in T. violaceus, a bit more ventrally oriented than with most octopus. The arm pair number 2 is actually tucked in like our worldfamous octo heart smiley :tentacle: and webbing is fairly well visible in the zebra striping off the arm pair; witnesses themselves described a wavy motion to that bit, as well as (what I can only interpret as) a mantle swelling and releasing for propulsion. Look at the turbulence in the water, that's jetting. The only thing you seem to be missing here, is the "blanket", which is indeed not always present.

Pluralitas non est ponenda sine neccesitate

Yeah, I'm with the Tremoctopus people -- the pics convinced me...it really doesn't look like a sea hare to me, and I've never seen any vertebrate that could look like that. Those look like tucked-in arms to me, and I have the independent confirmation of my roommate who came up and asked what kind of octopus it was.

Before I pass judgement on anything here (as in Tremoctopus or not) I am waiting for additional footage.

If this proves to be Tremoctopus then it has been caught on 'pixel' doing something that it has never been seen to do before. This would be extremely cool, as we will have learnt from this. However, nothing in this pic (or any pic) convinces me that this is any more a cephalopod than an opisthobranch (and some pics are definitely non-cephalopod in nature). Probability (rather than process of elimination) supports this weird thing being Tremoctopus, but I am so extremely uncomfortable wth this. What never ceases to amaze me is how often I am amazed .... that's how cool nature is, I have found my fair share of cool things, and I think it is high time that someone else finds something cool, like something way cool, like something weird, wonderful and bizarre, like something new .... perhaps something completely new.

I so want the next one of these weird things to have an ammonite shell tucked up inside it, and for us to have to completely reappraise what we thought we knew about ammonite morphology, anatomy and behaviour. I am not suggesting that this is an ammonite, not by any stretch of our collective imaginations, but am completely not convinced that it is any more cephalopod than opisthobranch, and if I'm not convinced that it is cephalopod then I most certainly cannot be convinced that it is Tremoctopus.

If this is Tremoctopus then someone tell me what it is doing, how, and why.

This is what I'm seeing, anyway...

This thread is sooo cool! I am hoping too that this is something new, it looks so foreign, and of course it would be amazing if it were a new cephalopod. It seems to me that it has more structure than a jellyfish or opisthobranch or even octopus. In Ob's illustration, it seems like there might be some internal (shell??) structure in the middle of the creature.

That's about where coelocanths were discovered, isn't it? Why not some bizarre form of ammonite? (I can dream, can't I?):ammonite:

What about contacting Professor Charles Griffiths from the University of Capetown, South Africa?

He wrote a book about the marine life of South Africa...

http://www.zoology.uct.ac.za/index.php?option=com_content&task=category&sectionid=4&id=1&Itemid=22

Glad to see this is still going!

Maybe we should all pitch in and fund Steve's mission to go find this critter and positively identify/describe :wink: it!

Thank you Mr. O'Shea and everyone for the welcoming comments!:) I deeply respect your massive knowledge in this field Mr. O'Shea, your time tested ability to identify cephs, and welcome all critique, but in good fun I will plod on stubbornly while always taking your insights into account and reassessing my own.

While I still believe that of all the animals mentioned, Trem seems the most likely to me, I am in complete agreement that it does not totally fit. What the "prehensile";) pointy end is, God only knows. The new pictures pointed out by Clem do show a very different specular quality of Trem that is not apparent in the mystery photos. However, I figure we should run through the list of things we know exist, figure which are best fits, then from that group weed out the ones that are incorrect. If all can be proven wrong, then it might be something new.

The sun fish is a good idea, but it lacks anatomical features plainly present in the mystery photos, like the two cephalic water pore-like things on the "head". These could be injuries or parasites, but they would have to be very well placed.

Still running with the ceph notion, if the striped area of the mystery animal is the tentacles (which are striped in Trem) could the tentacles be withdrawn due to the dolphin activity near by? I would imagine dolphins might really enjoy ripping and tearing the tentacles off of an octopus and eating them (much like I would:) ok, so I wouldn't do it to a living animal out in the ocean, but still...). Therefore, it could be a protective measure to draw them inward instead of displaying itself as bait. I know everyone here need not be reminded, but cephs are amazing contortionists. The one that tucks all but two of its tentacles in and walks on the sea floor is not a far cry from what this creature would be capable of if it were a ceph.

Just to put it out there, I love the unexplained and the mysterious. This is a fantastic post and extremely riveting to be sure. I hope that it is something new, I just want to look at all the possibilities that known animals can present. Nothing like a good mystery to teach you more about what you know, and perhaps, if you're lucky, more about what you had no clue existed.

This is what I'm seeing, anyway...

To be fair to Ob, this is what I have been seeing as well, in fact, since the first vision of pic #4. Frankly it jumped-out at me. Maybe we're wrong. Not sure about trem, but ceph, or at least mollusc - look at some of the wrinkles up close. That could almost be vampy if not for the surface location and markings. Whatever it is, and I dearly desire it to be something brand new, it is definitely something slimy, and that's good enough for me.:cthulhu:

Maybe it's an octopus mimicing a dolphin by stretching the mantle to create a 'beak' and tucking its arms in to look like a dolphins head sticking out of the water.


:tomato:

...I'll get my coat

A random thought: there might not be two distinct lateral vents in the body, there could be a single vent belting the ventral surface and we're just seeing a corner of that in the pics.

Following up on ob's sketch, here's one of my own. Has anyone got a close-up of the water pores at the base of Tremoctopus's arms? I drew this whilst thinking ceph but without being wedded to the Tremoctopus theory. I see similarities in bauplan to other, smaller octopods like Japetella and Bolitaena, too. I'm pretty solidly on the side of ceph, but I've no specific dog in this hunt.

Cheers,
Clem

Hmmmm. Ok, the arm formula for female Tremoctopus is 2.1.4.3, with arm pairs 1 and 2 about twice as long as 3 and 4. The web depth between different arm pairs is also considerably variable, being 9-52% the longest arm length.

Extensive webbing exists between arms 1 & 1 (A), 1 and 2 (B), but it is extremely shallow between arms 2 and 3 (C), 3 and 4 (D) and between 4 and 4 (E); web formula is somewhat variable, but sector B invariably is deepest, A next so, with sectors C, D and E somewhat variable, any being the most shallow on different specimens.

I am not sure if you would see arms 3 and 4 from any perspective in any of the photos (being ventro-lateral and ventral in orientation, and shorter than arms 1 and 2).

Excellent sketch though.

Tremoctopus neildiamondanus?

:sink:

Tremoctopus neildiamondanus?


I can't belive I just tried to googled that. I feel so dumb :smile:

Just read through this thread for the first time. Fascinating stuff! For what its worth my first thought before reading all the posts was Mola but now......? One weird beastie whatever it is

Love the poster!:lol:

Andy

Tremoctopus neildiamondanus?


LOL....

Another drawing attached, again done without a specific cephalopod in mind, using the fourth photo (http://www.tonmo.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=4515&d=1175810465) as a model for this profile. Some key ventral areas were left looking vague or blank.

There've been occasions in my life when I've heard a ripping yarn about mysterious things and thought, "Why don't they ever have cameras? Good photos would clear this right up." HA! Here we have good photos and a well-detailled account and we're still standing around, hands in pockets, saying "Huh."

Clem

I think your drawings are covering some good angles on it, they're exactly what I'm seeing as well.

On the last one the only thing I'd add/change is maybe a more pronounced dolphin-like beak-looking tip to the mantle, as in this pic...

http://www.tonmo.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=4514&stc=1&thumb=1&d=1175810363

Another drawing attached, again done without a specific cephalopod in mind, using the fourth photo (http://www.tonmo.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=4515&d=1175810465) as a model for this profile. Some key ventral areas were left looking vague or blank.

There've been occasions in my life when I've heard a ripping yarn about mysterious things and thought, "Why don't they ever have cameras? Good photos would clear this right up." HA! Here we have good photos and a well-detailled account and we're still standing around, hands in pockets, saying "Huh."

Clem


But why would a ceph adopt that shape and stick part of its body out of the water?

On the last one the only thing I'd add/change is maybe a more pronounced dolphin-like beak-looking tip to the mantle
Hi Michael,

The bottle-like shape you refer to isn't all that apparent in the fourth photo; when the animal's in its diving posture (I'm assuming that's what it's doing), that area appears more like a flattened bill, so that's how I drew it. If I do another photo-derived profile, I'll have a go at a delineation of the "shnozzle."

Cheers,
Clem

Edit:
But why would a ceph adopt that shape and stick part of its body out of the water?
Whatever this animal is, in the fourth photo it's clearly diving or trying to dive; the eyewitness describes this behavior. Plenty of animals (not just cephs) look like this when they're diving, i.e. with the dorsal area arched; however, this critter is arched and elongating/flattening as it dives, which I take as another indication that it's an invertebrate.

Edit 2:...Tremoctopus still isn't sitting right with me. If those are arms they're too short relative to the length of the body, and what's been called zebra-patterning is looking to me like outer (red) and inner (white) surfaces of arms that are both fanned and curled in at the tips. Overall, the animal's color, shape, proportion and details, specifically the two prominent pores on the dorsal, have me thinking along Alloposidae lines. The low end of the eyewitness-given dimensions is 30cm, which is about right for a male Haliphron. I'm NOT SAYING THIS IS Haliphron atlanticus, but in my opinion this thing looks more like something from the Alloposidae than the Tremoctopodidae.

The only problem with Haliphron (=Alloposus) is that the male is gelatinous/translucent, as far as I can ascertain from online images, and a few specimens from off Tasmanian (South Australia) seamounts; the female is anything but translucent. Also, Haliphron doesn't have those 'water pores', if that's what they are.

Clem, your last illustration is sensational; 5 gold stars there!

If this is Tremoctopus, and I lean that way now (not 100%, but getting there ... sadly; at least Greg has to buy me a round in Florida!), then it is doing something that we've not seen before - possibly something to do with reproduction, brooding eggs/an egg mass, or feeding (perhaps it has some swarm of krill/crustaceans in the web, and is slowly munching on them - might explain the small dorsal prominence in some of the pics - the buccal bulb). Then again, it could be as someone suggested earlier, a defensive mode - arms withdrawn because of the dolphins nearby.

So, that's one of 4 pics that has been explained. What on Earth is that schnozzle thing?

So, that's one of 4 pics that has been explained. What on Earth is that schnozzle thing?
In all seriousness, if this is indeed a ceph, could it be mimicking behavior? Looks like a sea-slug, looks like a bottle-nose (and that's who it was swimming with, right?)... Could that be possible? We know that the "mimic" and wunderpus themselves have some pretty incredible mimicking capabilities. Might other species of ceph have this ability?

Just asking!

Also, Haliphron doesn't have those 'water pores', if that's what they are.
Thanks, Steve, but what's that porish-looking spot visible in this picture on this site? (http://www.tonmo.com/science/haliphron/haliphron-fig1-2.php) In Fig.1, the spot's position on the head relative to the visible corner of the mantle opening matches up with similar-looking structures on the mystery critter. So, if that isn't a water pore on Haliphron's head, what is it? I don't want to confuse the issue or lead with improper nomenclature.

Cheers,
Clem

I love this forum! Even if my Tremoctopus stance would prove false, I still would have had a field day!

In all seriousness, if this is indeed a ceph, could it be mimicking behavior? Looks like a sea-slug, looks like a bottle-nose (and that's who it was swimming with, right?)... Could that be possible? We know that the "mimic" and wunderpus themselves have some pretty incredible mimicking capabilities. Might other species of ceph have this ability?

Just asking!

:shock:

I was only joking when I asked if it was mimicking a dolphin, but I guess octos can mimic sea snakes, flatfish, indeed all manner of non-ceph like creatures, is this the first recorded mammal-mimic?



:oops: ...I'll still get my coat shall I?

Thanks, Steve, but what's that porish-looking spot visible in this picture on this site? (http://www.tonmo.com/science/haliphron/haliphron-fig1-2.php) In Fig.1, the spot's position on the head relative to the visible corner of the mantle opening matches up with similar-looking structures on the mystery critter. So, if that isn't a water pore on Haliphron's head, what is it? I don't want to confuse the issue or lead with improper nomenclature.

Cheers,
Clem
This really had me scratching my head Adam. I've looked at those pics 100 times, and thought about it all day. I can only guess that one of them is an eye aperture (slumped), and the other a tear in the mantle.

They're not water pores that's for sure (I would hope).

Ah, freezer rash.:oops:
If this is Tremoctopus, and I lean that way now...then it is doing something that we've not seen before - possibly something to do with reproduction, brooding eggs/an egg mass, or feeding. Then again, it could be as someone suggested earlier, a defensive mode - arms withdrawn because of the dolphins nearby.
There are two instances of female Tremoctopus taken at the surface with egg masses that I know of, one in South African waters, the other in Hawaiian waters. In the SA example, the eggs mass was within the arm web; I don't know if the Hawaiian example's egg mass was located within the web or or the mantle cavity. I thought the odd migratory lump (what Ms. Penry calls the "melon") visible in two of the pics might be a shifting gas bubble trapped in the upper mantle cavity, but if this animal is Tremoctopus and female, perhaps the lump is an egg mass being moved out of the body. Now, about that shnozzle: it's located about where an octopus's gonads would be. If this is a female octopus well along in the brooding cycle, might the enlarged ovary poke out the end of the mantle as the female works to express the eggs?

Attached is a new profile of the animal, in a posture derived from the third photo.

Cheers,
Clem

I just received a pm from Gwen, who, as a consequence of this thread, thinks all octopus folk are slightly mad :wink:

No update on the new footage/stills front yet.:fingerscrossed:

and we're still standing around, hands in pockets, saying "Huh."

If only we'd had the opportunity to try the time-honored poke-it-with-a-stick line of investigation...

MAD ? uS? (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/8/89/Alfred.jpg)

Mad, I tell you, mahahahahad!!! Clem, love the artwork! I wish I had the time...

I just received a pm from Gwen, who, as a consequence of this thread, thinks all octopus folk are slightly mad :wink:
That's us... :bonk:

No update on the new footage/stills front yet.:fingerscrossed:
Standing by!

Any thoughts in the mean while on Adam and Steve's excellent suggestion we might be seeing egg hoarding in action, explaining the tucked in arm posture? If that's indeed arms, I'm seeing? :wink:

Could it perhaps be in a feeding position, perhaps having trouble dealing with whatever it's eating so has all arms tucked in trying to sort it out, and had 'surfaced' to cause the prey distress and perhaps enable the ceph to get a grip on the prey or reject it?

There is a lot of 'perhaps' in there.

Clem said there were two Tremoctopus taken from the surface with egg masses, were they in good health? Is it normal for Tremoctopus to be at the surface with her eggs?