The one on the white shark trust (Michael Scholl) website appeared to be alive and kicking, even following handling and spending some uncomfortable hours in an improvised tank on board.

It's interesting to note the egg cluster being held between the dorsal pairs, further adding credence to the Clem/O'Shea theory.

Please note overall coloration being non-iridescent, ventral orange colour and zebra pattern on arm pair #2 webbing, once more :wink:

And with regards to the absence of a "blanket": watch this Incredible Footage (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zy-ZlzAM6f8)

Plus another nice little photo...

...there were two Tremoctopus taken from the surface with egg masses, were they in good health? Is it normal for Tremoctopus to be at the surface with her eggs?
Capn, the Hawaiian example is discussed in detail at TOL, here. (http://tolweb.org/notes/?note_id=2416) "Mostly dead" was its condition when found. As for surfacing being normal Trem brooding behavior, I can't say (don't know enough).

And with regards to the absence of a "blanket": watch this Incredible Footage (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zy-ZlzAM6f8)
Ob, that is incredible footage, but I was not prepared for the loud, relentlessly upbeat sounds of a Japanese chat show. :bugout:

I switched off the sound, btw...

If only we'd had the opportunity to try the time-honored poke-it-with-a-stick line of investigation...:wink:

I like the ideas, if it is a ceph (Trem in particular), that the tentacles would be pulled in as a feeding behavior or as a protective posture. However, the egg hypothesis has me very intrigued.

The specimen caught by the White Shark Trust had an egg cluster. We can see where it was located. My first question to anyone who might know is: how would they be placed there? Could the mystery pics be of the animal placing them in the webbing?

Is there a "mating season" for cephs or Trem? Would this be the right time of year for an individual to even have eggs? Is it most or a certain number of species that usually die after nurturing the eggs? Essentially, do female octopi even reproduce more than once usually?

Lastly, if I remember correctly, the White Shark Trust did have pics of the animal they caught while it was in the water. It did not have its tentacles tucked in though we know it had an egg cluster. This would at least demonstrate that once the eggs are in place, Trem would not always swim like the creature in the mystery photos.

I'm still loving the Trem hypothesis and Clem's illustrations are spot-on IMO. Again, thanks to everyone for making this an awesome post!:)

I would suggest Tremoctopus places its egg mass between pair 1 by use of pairs 3 and/or 4, not dissimilar to the way it "expels" its blanket. The only pair that needs to be tucked in for the animal to take on the appearance as seen in the "mystery pics" would be number 2.

PS: Clem, as if I wouldn't spot the dirty spoon :wink:

The amazing blanket expelling video has given me an idea. Has anyone ever seen how Tremoctopus puts its blanket away? Is it at all possible that it could come to the surface so the blanket would drift downwards in one direction only (below the body) making it easier and quicker to gather it in? Would a Tremoctopus with a gathererd in blanket swimming close to, or on the surface, present a reduced profile to dolphin sonar, essentially a 'stealth' mode for the ceph?

Pure speculation but this is a fun thread!

Isn't it rather flat-looking for an octopus?

The amazing blanket expelling video has given me an idea. Has anyone ever seen how Tremoctopus puts its blanket away? Is it at all possible that it could come to the surface so the blanket would drift downwards in one direction only (below the body) making it easier and quicker to gather it in? Would a Tremoctopus with a gathererd in blanket swimming close to, or on the surface, present a reduced profile to dolphin sonar, essentially a 'stealth' mode for the ceph?

Pure speculation but this is a fun thread!

Lots of fun indeed! It wouldn't make any difference whether the octopus would be near the surface, or not, with respect to which way its blanket would "drift". Tremoctopus apparently uses its blanket for looking a lot larger and therewith more dangerous than it actually is, so rather than retracting it in the face of danger, it would rather produce it.

I read on the interweb (so it must be true!) that Trems' blankets can break easily, acting as a defense similar to an anole or gecko's detachable tail. Is this correct as well?

Also, the witness account of this encounter states that the dolphin horde was ignoring the critter and it them, nor did it seem bothered by the boat, so no "go-go gadget blanket!" response or lying in stealth mode would be warranted. Speculation, of course...

Best. Thread. Ever.

Found this odd picture on eBay...Seems similar to our specimen and Trem...

http://www.bertuchprints.com/Guerin03600/GUER_606.jpg

Found this odd picture on eBay...Seems similar to our specimen and Trem...


Except for the bird with feet half as long as it's body... but yeah...:smile:

a ceph in the sky, don't let erich see this...

Yeah, the feet are too big, and the beaks the wrong colour. Close though.

That's the burger all right, bar the inconsistency of arm length with the real thing. Nice find MB!

Poulpe Voile means cloth octopus or sail octopus, pretty close to blanket:)

Adam, what about Clemoctopus? :smile:

Adam, what about Clemoctopus? :smile:

Oh sure, give the guy who's done research and really cool drawings the credit.... what no Kiboktopus? :grin:

I guess we could find a subspecies somewhere :wink:

I've placed bids on a few items like this (drawings from old books or old prints or whatever) -- this one is the weirdest!

Great image Michael, thanks for finding it and posting it.

One question I don't think anyone has asked, unless I missed it, is if this is Tremoctopus, what exactly is the function of the 'nostrils'?

Thank you.

The pores are I think inlets/outlets of some sort of hydrostatic organ; I have tried to get Bizikov's 2004 publication on this, but haven't got at it yet...

As towards the function of said organ, apparently it is seen as a "swim bladder", but I wonder what our mystery animal's "trunk" might have to say about this, or what would happen if air got into the system...

Thanks for the compliments, guys. Those drawings were fun to do. If the Tremoctopus ID can ever be established beyond a reasonable doubt, through poking it with a spoon, or sending it emails, the record shall reflect that it was marinebio_guy who called it, way back in Post #5. (http://www.tonmo.com/forums/showpost.php?p=91669&postcount=5)8-)

Cheers,
Clem

*sniff* I love you guys! :cheers:

Oh well, whatever the beastie is, it makes a very fetching hat for teuthologists.

:roflmao:

:lol:

Next CIAC's honorary gift?

:lol:

:roflmao: Phil, you are indeed a master of wit & PS. :lol:

If you stop OB's video find just to the left of half way, I swear you see the "dolphin nose" very clearly.

I still say the one shot looks like the underside of my sea hare but stopping the video really does add to the Tremoctopus argument.

:mrgreen: :lol:

:lol:

Except for the bird with feet half as long as it's body... but yeah...:smile:

a ceph in the sky, don't let erich see this...

Too late, dude.

Just saw Dr. Ku with the Trem-beret.

:lol: :lol: :lol:

Can Tremoctopus change color? All of the photos seem to show the animal with the same coloration. Maybe the animal wasn't threatened and this is its "relaxed" coloration, but I would expect if it had the ability to change color there would be some variation among the photos. Just wondering...

It changes colour quite exquisitely.

:heee:
Phil, you may very well be on to something. Via personal correspondence, this:

Personally, I think it's a small shark wearing a human
liver as a hat...just to freak people out. ...and it worked.
Cuttlegirl, IMO this animal's particular color scheme is defensive, with ventral surfaces blanched white to mitigate its shadow and dorsal surfaces dialed to a value that's gray-scale neutral. I wonder if the zebra patterning might serve a defensive purpose, too, i.e. bold stripes equals "Back off, pal."

Cheers,
Clem

Above post: Reminds me of a alien mother ship.

...my bet would be a Tremoctopus, the shape doesn't strike me like a ray, nor a giant man eating jellyfish, sea hare or nudibranch. Some very good analysis work on the photos there.

Well that's the ship from the Abyss. Isn't it? As for this beastie, after reading through this thread I have come to the conclusion that due to the amount of dispute, if can neither be an octopus, nor a slug or anything like that. Therefore it must be a "marshin".

Well,I just heard bck from Dr Bill Rudman. He had been in New Zealand fo the last two weeks .... and sadly we never caught up.

This is what he has to say of the unusual pics

"The only 2 opisthobranchs of that size which swim - at times are various species of Sea Hare [Aplysia] and the pleurobranch Euselenops luniceps, see here (http://www.seaslugforum.net/showall.cfm?base=euseluni)

But the shape of this mystery doesn't really fit either so like you I don't know. If you get some more photos I am happy to have a look."

Thanks Bill. Magic stuff. Of course we haven't received any more pics, so the jury is still out (although it certainly is more like Tremoctopus than any other beast that we know of).

Wow. It really looks like a bottlenose dolphin rostrum and dorsal fin. Could it be that some deformed animal has made it through the challenges of life to this stage? Why not? I did.
Or, is there any way its a ray that's had its flaps bitten off by the pod of dolphins nearby? I've seen it happen. It's not a pretty sight.

Of course my last reply refers to the posts at the very start of this thread, like...ages ago.

Of course my last reply refers to the posts at the very start of this thread, like...ages ago.

:welcome: to TONMO, and better late than never... it's not as if we figured out what the heck the critter is, so further input is, of course, still encouraged!

Interesting "trunk" on a bluering, for comparison...

Verrry interesting...

And this one...

Hmmmm, is this a feature of octopuses in general, or just the blue ring? There's a huge colour variation on the mystery beast.

Fascinating stuff here. I don't think I saw it mentioned and I'm not sure what the fine detail is on a Tremocto, but the 4th image posted by Steve does not show a clear mantle/head interface. If going by where the 2 pores are located, and the supposed lateral openings on the mantle, there should be a line going across the animal that illustrates where the head and mantle meet, I see none. Again could be just poorly shown by the images. Can't wait to see how this ends.

Again, for anyone who believes that this is a cephalopod, one of the facts we know is that this thing was seen swimming nearby dolphins. What are the thoughts that this could be mimicry? I'm not saying at all that it's the mimic octopus (obviously it's not), but assuming that it is a ceph, how far-fetched might it be to assume that it is engaging in mimicking behavior? Don't think I saw a whole lot of discussion on that view in this thread. I realize it's a big assumption to make, but if you do make that assumption, this idea helps make sense of the overall scenario, don't you think?
http://www.tonmo.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=4514&d=1175810363

Gwen sent me the following 5 images and text last week; I forgot to post them here.
.............
Dear Steve

I thought you would be interested to see these pics. They were taken about 2 weeks after my strange sighting, about 150km further south along the coastline. I cant see the two pits or the nose like protrusion, but am I right in saying that this is a Tremoctopus?
The girl who took the photos, didnt know to take measurements or anything, just thought it looked interesting. Apparently it was alive when she found it. Im afraid thats all I know.

Gwen
.............
They sure are Tremoctopus, and in the last image you'll see some rather interesting colour around the edge of the mantle; looks the same as that in lateral profile in the first images (one of the things that had m rather confused). The more I think about it the more comfortable I am with Clem's rendition of the animal, and that the first set of images are Tremoctopus doing something rather weird.

The last two ...

:party:

That is unbelievable! Clem: well done! :glass:

I expect to see a paper on my desk by 0800 entitled 'Observation and Identification of a Tremoctopus Doing Something Rather Weird': Clem et al. TONMO faculty of Ocean Science 2007.

Hats off to Clem I think.

:notworth:

:notworth: Well done Clem!!!

Is it thought to be the same animal? Maybe there was an issue with, do octopuses have airbladders?

Hi Carol. The only octopus with an 'air bladder' is Ocythoe tuberculata, and as far as I am aware (I could be wrong), it is present in the female only.

It is unlikely that this is the very same animal, but the incidence of an otherwise (apparently) undamaged female on a beach points to her having recently reproduced and having died of natural causes. If she has recently 'spawned' then it could well be that the earlier images are of a spawning female (that time of the year).

And similar kudos to that original macdaddy of Tremoctopus lore, Marinebio Guy.

I lean towards the eggs expulsion theory of the schnozzle being contracted ovary causing mantle deformation...

I know this is probably extremly late in the discussion, but I am absolutely fascinated with this whole thread! I've been interested in marine life since I was a kid and I've always loved cephalopods the most. I guess I'll fill all that in when I fix up my profile.

To get to my point. I currently work for an aquatics distributor, and previously I worked in a aquatics retail store. When I worked at the store we came across the well known blue ring...pymgy variety. My boss, knowing my love for cephs, and also knowing the dangers involved with this particular species knew I was distraught since my little buddy, an unidentified octopus a customer brought in, was murdered by two crabs. (I think an associate of mine did it to spite me) We constructed a tank for the blue ring, of course making sure it was safe where no one could touch it.

To get to the point, even though it was a pygmy, it's ability to change shape, more pointedly to extend it's body to almost the size of my hand shows that it was a master of mimicry. Also for any who may not know, Blue Rings generally do not look like their famous relative in Double O 7 ^_^. When feeding, it (I do not know enough to determine male from female >_<) would turn a blood red color. When I placed my hand on the glass it would attempt to fit my hand and even adjust to the color.

I do have first hand evidence of the blue ring being able to make its mantle very pointy, and of course very flat (depending on whether it was being testy...playing with one of it's toys...or just trying to "blend in"). I have pictures of him/her somewhere, as soon as I find them I will post them.

I happen to believe that the mystery animal is some kind of ceph (as most of you do) I have come across many varieties of nudibranchs, sea hares, spanish dancers, sting rays, sharks, sun fish...whatever the case may be, in both my business and in the pursuits of pleasure (I've gone scuba diving all over the world...still have to get to the Great Barrier Reef though...I will someday!). With that in mind, I have never seen any of those species do anything like this.

I fear I'm beginning to ramble so I'll cut it short. My point is the Shnozzle like protrusion in one of the first photos is in my opinion a form of mimicry (be it for defense or just because it can lol) I'm sure you all know how curious Octupi are.

Oh and on a side note...that japanese chat show youtube thingy...nearly blew out my ear drums :razz: thanks for that lol.

Ok I'm done.

:welcome: to TONMO! It sounds like you'll fit in just fine...

Hummm... I can imagine Charles Fort's response:

"An unknown animal is seen floating in the sea. Weeks later, a dead octopus is found on the beach hundreds of miles away and identified. The investigators concluded that the unknown animal was probably of the same species as the dead octopus." :p

I'm unsticking this popular thread. We had fun, but it's fallen into the 'yesterdays news' category. I'm sure we'll have another 'unknown phylum' in due course to entertain you all.

Verdict, Tremoctopus violaceus. It certainly had me scratching my head. Thanks for everyone's input.

Us

Well, this probably does come under the category of Old News, but I recently found this amazing Japanese video on YouTube. There's an earlier version from March, so you may have seen it already -- and I apologize if it's been previously posted in this or another forum. But just in case you didn't.... this is breathtaking:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cpME-jNSC2U

I wonder how many people actually get to see this behavior in the wild? Truly amazing!

Tani

That is an amazing video, thanks for posting it (I hadn't seen it). It's also a highly amusing video with the shocked and amazed expressions from the audience and the insets in the upper left. :lol:

:shock: Great find, Tani!

There is a brief glimpse of the "porpoise" look about mid way through that really supports the conclusion.

more confirmation, positive location of "water pores" is noted by http://www.tolweb.org/Tremoctopus !

more confirmation, positive location of "water pores" is noted by http://www.tolweb.org/Tremoctopus !

Fantastic pictures, but TOLweb puts Tremoctopus under Argonautoida, unlike Nixon & Young and Steve's treatise on NZ octopods... what's up with that?

It looks like this rejiggering came from here:

Voight, J. R. 1997. Cladistic analysis of the octopods based on anatomical characters. J. Moll. Stud. 63: 311-325.

Is this accepted classification now? Gah, I can't keep track of this stuff; I guess that's why I'm not a real biologist...

Is this accepted classification now? Gah, I can't keep track of this stuff; I guess that's why I'm not a real biologist...

Pffft. They make it up as they go along... :smile:

Is this accepted classification now? Gah, I can't keep track of this stuff; I guess that's why I'm not a real biologist...

Pffft. They make it up as they go along... :smile:

Taxonomists were born to change things, they live to re-write synonymies
and otherwise foul up traditional classifications as best they can. They are truly :evil:

:wink:

:cry:

:cry:

:twisted:^2

:grin:

Fantastic pictures, but TOLweb puts Tremoctopus under Argonautoida, unlike Nixon & Young and Steve's treatise on NZ octopods... what's up with that?

'oida', not 'idae' (Family); there's no change there at all Monty (people have long recognised the relationship between the Tremoctopodidae, Argonautidae and Ocythoidae; probably Alloposidae also). I did not include a superfamilial classification in the memoir (although covered them in this order in the memoir).
Cheers

'oida', not 'idae' (Family);

So is it 'oidea' for ?Subclass, 'ida' for Order, 'ina' for Suborder and 'oida' for Superfamily?

dea da ina da dae nae :band:

:oops: well, that's why I'm an ignorant computer scientist who just dabbles in biology... Interesting, though... I guess I don't have any books that cover the rationale behind the intermediate-level groups... any recommendations? Or should I just read TOLweb and/or ask naive questions on TONMO? :boohoo: I guess this is a semi-useful reference: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_classification

:band: inna gadda da vida, baby!

Mark hit the nail on the head; towards the end of that link you'll find the attached table (copied). There are several supraspecific categories in there that even I have not heard of (everything below family, above genus ... , although I lose no sleep over this (change is to be expected; otherwise we'd all be rubbing sticks together to create fire)).

Thank You guys! Looks like some of the endings used below Superfamily are used for some groups above Superfamily. Is it OK to have duplicate endings?

eg.

Coleoidea, Ammonoidea, Nautiloidea = Subclass' of Class Cephalopoda, the same ending as Superfamily on the chart.

Ammonitina, Ancyloceratina, Phylloceratina = Suborders of Order Ammonitida, the same ending as Subtribe on the chart.

Will I be renaming all the names in my database in the near future? :roll:

Not that subtribe or some of those others below Subfamily are used extensively in cephalopod literature, but still... you may not, but I may loose some shut-eye over this. :wink: (maybe 3 winks)

It doesn't appear to be as consistent for animals Kevin; I wouldn't lose any winks over it at all. Cheers

WOW!! I just spent over 45mins reading this entire thread! I must admit that was quite interesting..! And.... I need coffee :sleeping: and I definitely need to start my Masters ASAP so that I can answer questions relating to some unknown species (cephalopod or not) popping up to the pelagic out of the possible depths...:roll: yup yup!

:welcome: Cephalopodia. This was an interesting thread indeed; there are many more like it. I hope that we see you around more often.

Cheers Steve!! I'm sure I'll learn heaps from this website.:grin: I just looked at your signature and a reference to Neptune- the funny part is I had a cat whom we named as Neptune just because we live on a boat and he was our kitten(a yr ago) and he used to roam around as if he owned the place!!:roflmao:

Anyhow, back to reading other interesting threads on here:roll:

WOW!! I just spent over 45mins reading this entire thread! I must admit that was quite interesting..! And.... I need coffee :sleeping: and I definitely need to start my Masters ASAP so that I can answer questions relating to some unknown species (cephalopod or not) popping up to the pelagic out of the possible depths...:roll: yup yup!

:welcome: to TONMO... I wish we saw enough interesting critters come up from the deep that this thread had more frequent activity!

Cheers Monty! Yes that is true.. I don't live too far away from the beach, so I'm sure I'll have something to report in the not-so-distant future:cool: