Hi everyone,

I want to alert you to a work-in-progress, but first let me address the many newcomers to TONMO.com! The recent Colossal Squid discoveries and news have made TONMO.com a highly trafficked site -- well, moreso than before. So, I'd like to introduce myself to all the new visitors and to people who don't know me:

I am the Webmaster of TONMO.com, but I am not a cephalopod expert. Everything I know I've learned from all the people who post on TONMO.com, I've read a couple of books, and I've done some amount of Web surfing. I've seen a few at aquariums, much to my delight, but I've never touched one or studied a specimen. I am not a marine biologist by any stretch, and I've never owned a fish tank (saltwater or fresh). I simply think octopuses, squid, cuttlefish and nautilus (and their fossilized ancestors) are extremely interesting (to put it mildly).

That is why I have a team of volunteer staff (http://www.tonmo.com/meet.php) to help out! By far, Dr. Steve O'Shea is the most renown member of our staff (with no offense to any of our other staff members!) Dr. O'Shea is on a very short list of world cephalopod experts. When a giant or colossal squid is caught or recovered, he is among the first people contacted, and it would seem that more often than not, he performs the autopsy. You've probably seen him on the Discovery Channel, and have read his quotes whenever the newswires pick up a story on giant or colossal squid.

Giant cephalopods aside, TONMO.com is very much about cephalopod care. We have experts in the field of ceph care, who have deep knowledge on what it takes to safely and ethically care for an octopus. That is the focus of this post. Based on what I've learned from our staff and other members of our community, it is my belief that ceph care ethics can broken down into a few categories. The work in progress that I mention above is the effort being pulled together by TONMO.com staff to identify the right answers and parameters for keeping cephalopods. These are the areas under consideration:

1) Species: Which species are appropriate for being kept in the home for qualified tank owners?

2) Acquisition / wild-caught: how is the ceph retreived from its natural habitat? Is there a supported / preferred wild-caught method? Which methods (e.g., cyanide) are not supported?

3) Captive-breeding: what are the appropriate parameters for breeding cephalopods?

4) Handling: how is the ceph transported? What are the best practices?

5) Retail: how do LFS represent these animals? How can we, as a community, help improve the knowledgebase and care methodologies within the store, and at the point-of-sale (e.g., the TONMO.com flyer concept, a certification program)? If you see an LFS selling x, or promoting y, or advocating z, voice your objection / offer education.

6) In-home care: Per species, what are the proper tank specifications? A matrix is needed which identifies recommended specs per species or family. Also, what is considered proper / improper interactive behavior? e.g., "never try to make your cephalopod ink. do not tug on their arms. do not mix them with the following species:" etc.)

There may be other categories to consider -- again, I am no expert, but I recognize this as an important initiative. Because this is a community and we have many experts who visit TONMO.com, I wanted to share with you our ambition to set these parameters in the most appropriate and responsible way we can imagine. As ever, the primary focus is the health and well-being of the cephalopod.

Any thoughts or input is welcomed as these "statements" are defined. Thank you!

Great idea!

Nice posting, Tony. Especially right now during a Tonmo.com visitors upsurge.

Tony,
How about a positive Tank Mates and Fauna subtopic. Posting what not to do is always warranted but posting what TO DO is often more helpful, especially during initial tank setup. This might include recommended hardware as well if any members have found specific hardware that is easier to octo proof.

Ceph Care?

Thanks D -- I appreciate the input.

Regarding hardware, I'd think the Tank Talk forum would be good for this? To your point, there may be an opportunity for sub-forums under our top-level categories. Tank Mates is a good one, I think.

We've stayed away from recommending specific bands of equipment (hardware). There is no one ideal set-up and a lot depends on your budget, space, experience, etc. New hardware is coming out all the time, and a would-be ceph keeper should visit an LFS to start with, and then do some reading.

We tell people what they need in general and they are welcome to ask questions (does anyone have this?) or search for a specific brand. We are always discussing specific protein skimmers, tanks, etc. In Tank Talk, there is a thread (sticky), where people list what they have and how much it cost, which could be used as a model.

We will be looking at all Ceph Care information this year and seeing what needs updating and improvement. We welcome suggestions.

Nancy

Nancy,

I was thinking more in the way of stuff like cleaning tools, lid clamps etc. that could be more octo specific rather than the standard major hardware.

That's a good idea. I keep meaning to post on my own hand-made tools and I'm sure others have their favorites!

Nancy

Hi everyone, I wanted to provide you with an update, and want to make sure I point out that none of this is an April Fool's gag. :smile:... watch yourself out there today!

We have closed in on our text for TONMO.com's Code of Ethics pertaining to cephalopod care. It has been drafted, evaluated, and revised, and so here is what I'd call "version 1.0", the first release:


TONMO.com Code of Ethics

TONMO.com does not support the collection of cephalopods for the home aquarium trade by measures such as chemical or cyanide fishing or the collection of rare species or of species in which there is no known population figures. Where possible, always buy captive bred cephalopods and support aquaculture.

Guidelines for Cephalopod Purchase or Aquisition:

We recommend purchasing tank-bred or aquacultured cephalopods, when available. Rescued cephalopods, whether from a trap or from live rock, are also recommened.

Wild-caught cephalopods, caught by natural means (no chemicals) are acceptable.

Capturing a cephalopod yourself is recommended only for experienced keepers, and you need to check whether you need a permit.

Do not purchase octopuses whose populations are threatened or whose status is not known, such as wunderpus and mimic.

Do not purchase blue-ring octopuses because of their potentially lethal venom.

In the coming weeks we'll determine the best places to post and promote this new code.

Please note that the TONMO.com Staff has decided to move the Wunderpus thread to the Supporters' forum so as to avoid "public" promotion of the keeping of Wunderpus. Richard is a friend of TONMO.com's and we certainly respect his abilities and accomplishments in this space, but given the unknown status of Wunderpus, and out of concern of "sensationalism" within the trade, we believe that such material is most appropriate for a restricted audience.

Thank you!

EDIT: The thread has been "soft deleted" in the Supporter's area at the request of the author.

As some people have been asking, it seems best that I clarify the reasons for the 'soft delete' request.

I asked that the thread be removed from the supporters area because I think I am uncomfortable with the idea that people would need to pay to read the thread.

I believe I disagree that the information in the Fontanelle/wunderpus thread is appropriate only for a restricted audience and have at least temporally moved the information to another site. I am not posting the link right now on TONMO because doing so would seem to violate the code of ethics, so feel free to contact me if you are looking for it.

While I agree with the spirit of the TONMO code of ethics, I am not sure I agree with the code in its current state or how it relates to the TONMO mission, and I am not sure I agree with the practical application it has had.

My opinions on the matter are currently and clearly in flux :grin: and I want to make it very clear that I fully and completely respect and support TONMOs right to manage content of this site however TONMO sees fit.

RR

Well, you are certainly entitled to your opinion, Thales, and I do respect your experience in regards to the maintenance of captive cephalopods.

That being said, why is it o.k. to keep animals that may be on the brink of disappearing? I don't understand the rationale. The excitement brought on by the panderment of these animals has nothing to do with understanding them as wild animals in a specific habitat, and yes, I can agree that they are indeed beautiful and interesting, but what cost are we paying for them to be brought to the wholesaler's? As stated before:

are we asking ourselves "can I ? " rather than "should I?"

As some people have been asking, it seems best that I clarify the reasons for the 'soft delete' request.

I asked that the thread be removed from the supporters area because I think I am uncomfortable with the idea that people would need to pay to read the thread.

I believe I disagree that the information in the Fontanelle/wunderpus thread is appropriate only for a restricted audience and have at least temporally moved the information to another site. I am not posting the link right now on TONMO because doing so would seem to violate the code of ethics, so feel free to contact me if you are looking for it.

While I agree with the spirit of the TONMO code of ethics, I am not sure I agree with the code in its current state or how it relates to the TONMO mission, and I am not sure I agree with the practical application it has had.

My opinions on the matter are currently and clearly in flux :grin: and I want to make it very clear that I fully and completely respect and support TONMOs right to manage content of this site however TONMO sees fit.

RR

Thanks for the explication. With hindsight, I am a bit dismayed that it could be interpreted as arbitrary, draconian, or "out of the blue." We've actually been involved in discussion for some time... in fact, one of the main motivators for the decision that it would be a good idea to adopt an ethics policy is that we frequently find that since TONMO has become a rather well-known site for various things cephy, we have both opportunity and unsought responsibility to try to figure out how to influence the world in a positive direction, or at least not accidentally cause harm. I think I can safely say that the staff as a whole is clear on the statement of ethics. I think, though, that we're open to suggestions on how to apply this ethical position to running the site...

I would very much like to involve the community in determining how this code of ethics should be communicated, implemented, and spread. I don't believe it is our intention to say that wunderpuses should be a taboo subject for discussion outside the supporters section, just that we need to make sure that we don't contribute to overcollection of these animals in the wild to the point of endangerment. In general, I see the code as something that should inspire people to be responsible in ceph-keeping, such that they help teach others about how to keep animals in responsible ways, and tell their LFSes when they are selling potentially endangered (or dangerous) animals.

Frankly, I find your pictures and videos of all your cephs are so well-produced, amazing, charismatic, well-paced, and entertaining that they're among my first choices for showing my friends how cool cephs are, and the Fontanelle pictures and videos are no exception. Obviously, this is largely a good thing for entertainment, and perhaps for raising the issue of a need for wunderpus conservation to the public, but there is a valid and worrisome concern that it will also lead to increased demand for these animals that could drive the collection of them to disastrous levels.

I think it's still an open question how best to address this concern. I've largely put my wunderp.us site on hold as well, because I'm not sure how to make a web site devoted to how amazing these critters are while also making it glaringly obvious that any demand for these animals as pets puts them at terrible risk for overcollection. I think the concern about the thread in question is that a lot of cocky people will say "that guy kept a wunderpus in his tank at home, and I'm a l33t F1sh Xpert, so I can do it" (or "I'm rich, so I'll pay my tank tender to keep a wunderpus in my bedroom tank to impress chicks").

I'm not sure how this works, but apparently there is frequently a "perfect storm" in the exotic/ornamental animal trade that leads to people living near the native habitat to suddenly realize that there is a resource that can be exploited for short-term profit, and if the animal doesn't have good natural defenses from over-collection, it can rapidly become endangered or extinct. I don't know how we can influence collectors directly to avoid this danger, but I believe that TONMO has an opportunity to have some influence on people's willingness to pay for these animals. I'd vastly prefer to have your cooperation to leverage this influence rather than to make you feel alienated or obligated to take your stories, pictures, and videos elsewhere.

Speaking only for myself, not for the whole staff, I think there must be a way that we can include the content in that thread in such a way that it can be enjoyed but that it is tightly bound to a message that it is vital that we remove the incentive of collectors to devastate the wild population, and this is incompatible with having any sort of demand or profit trickle back to them. If your biggest concern is that moving it to the supporters area would require people to pay to see it, perhaps other options could work instead: having a separate area where viewers must see a statement in order to view the images and videos, for example. Or, perhaps, tagging all the images with "wunderpuses should never be bought as pets" or similar. Again, this whole paragraph is my own ideas, not an official staff position, so Tony may well think that is not sufficient, but I'd very much like find out if there is an appropriate compromise that is consistent with the goals without needing to alienate, frustrate, or gag anyone, and that won't drive reasonable, enthusiastic participants away.

:twocents:

(or "I'm rich, so I'll pay my tank tender to keep a wunderpus in my bedroom tank to impress chicks")

Just clarifying on Monty's behalf, I'm sure he means 'rich [$]' not 'Rich.' :roll:

I think that the ethics statement of Tonmo is quite correct.

Animals such as wonderpus and mimics have absolutely no place in the private sector, any information gleaned from captivity is way offset by the damage caused by collection.

I've been concerned from the very beginning about posting all the stuff about wunderpus on the open side of the forum because of the very reasons stated above. We all have vivid memories of trying to convince cocky wanabe ceph owners that no, it isn't ok to keep a vulgaris in a 10 gallon tank and feed it goldfish, and having them argue belligerently that everything will be fine, even though they just got the tank, have no live rock and are getting the octo next week. Do we really think that any statement about not buying wunderpus or mimics will have any effect, and do we really believe that the average lfs will refrain from ordering them if they get requests? Thales is an experienced ceph keeper who may have saved his octo from an untimely death by rescuing it before it was picked up by an lfs, but we don't want to encourage casual readers of Tonmo to attempt the same thing.
Thales, I'm sorry you feel like you have to remove all pictures , etc from Tonmo, but you are really an exceptional ceph keeper, and you should be aware that very few people can match your skills. We really don't need to be encouraging the collection of animals who's viability in their natural habitat is possibly already compromised.
Sharon :twocents:

As a longtime enthusiast (though from a distance) but a new member here; let me add my :twocents: ...

It only takes a new member here a few moments reading any of the information listed on this site to realize the staff here (and most of the members) are intelligent, honorable, dedicated people who care first and formost for the species described here, and secondly for the hobby. It only takes a few days to begin to see who the major contributors are, and what the overall stance in on specific species (flamboyant, blue ring, wunderpus, etc).

There has to be a way to convey care information and media of these animals while also informing the public of your stance on collecting and husbandry. So far I believe this site has done an admirable job of that, and I have NO doubt you will find a way to continue that.

One thing to consider since it appears you're considering allocating information on non-advised species to the "paid" area (where I will soon also be a member)...There isn't a single species here that can't be viewed as beautiful, exotic and highly desirable to collectors and hobbyists; whether it be S. bandensis, which is readily available here in captive-bred form, or the wunderpus, which is ill-advised for collecting. If you're going to restric information regarding certain species "to protect them" from over-eager and ill-informed collectors; the entire site may as well be made "paid only".

I'm not saying I know what the answer is, but I am saying I believe you'll find a way to include all information provided by members here in the non-paid site while also converying that certain species kept by certain responsible, highly experienced members are not recommended for others, and in fact are highly discouraged.

I hope that says what I mean to say, and that I haven't overstepped any boudaries. Just the thoughts of a relative outsider new to the site.

KEEP UP THE AMAZING WORK!!!

:notworth:

Michael, I think you will find that all of us agree with you in point...but the evidence that posting articles glorifying the keeping of some species, even though the wild poplulation numbers are not known, has indeed resulted in a huge upsurge in interest in these species of cephalopods. Last year, the keeping of wonderpus and mimics was unheard of...now, how many new threads do we have?

As I have stated before, personally, I don't agree with keeping captive cephs, but that is indeed my choice. I used to, and it would be throwing rocks at glass houses to say that I am right, and other's are wrong.

You don't agree with keeping any Cephs? Didn't know that. Can I ask why?

Michael, I think you will find that all of us agree with you in point...but the evidence that posting articles glorifying the keeping of some species, even though the wild poplulation numbers are not known, has indeed resulted in a huge upsurge in interest in these species of cephalopods. Last year, the keeping of wonderpus and mimics was unheard of...now, how many new threads do we have?

What evidence and what articles?

A search of 'wunderpus' and 'mimic' turns up very few threads about their husbandry, and most of those are from people new to TONMO who bought the animals at aquarium stores, asking for help in how to keep them alive.

Really? Look at the one nursing eggs...how many have we seen in the last 16 months about "where can I get one?".
They do not belong in captivity. Period.
When you can tell me that they are totally unthreatened in the wild, and there is a large population, then, I will keep my mouth shut.

But I will still think that keeping cephs in captivity is wrong.

Greg,

What 'articles glorifying the keeping of some species' were you referring to in your previous post?

Really? Look at the one nursing eggs...

What article prompted that one to be bought? What evidence do you have that shows that to be the case?

how many have we seen in the last 16 months about "where can I get one?".

I think that is what I am asking you. How many and what articles prompted them?

TONMO staff,

I am glad, for consistency's sake, that you closed jhemdal's threads. One of my biggest worries with decisions to censor content is that it often gets done inconsistently, and seeing that the new policy is partially getting followed up on makes me feel much better. :grin:
At the same time, I have to ask why weren't those threads moved to the supporters area like mine was? If my thread had been locked in place with an explanation of why, I would have had MUCH less of a negative reaction than I did when it was moved out of the public view and into the pay area of the site.

Thanks!

RR

I swore I wasn't going to post on this subject since I expressed my opinion early on but Jay's (jhemdal) questions are exactly my point. Greg, do you REALLY think it was wrong for the fish curator of a city zoo to ask about a ceph in his care? Or that he has to belong to a special group to get a one time answer? Or that perhaps you are generalizing without really looking to see what kind of people are using the information that was available?

Hi everyone,

I'm sorry I'm not as quick-draw on the keyboard as I'd like to be! This thread has gotten away from me a bit...

Thales, rest assured that your thread was not targeted in any way. Our "code" transcends any one thread or member -- I think it stands on face value.

I will say, though, that your thread shone a spotlight on the issue that I felt we needed to address.

Now, with regard to the enforcement of that code -- a couple of things. One, the code was published well after the Fontenelle thread became very rich in content. You'll notice that several past threads have also been moved to the Supporter's forum.

For going forward, I am suggesting that we should "lock" any new thread dealing with poorly understood species, with link which points to our code.

I have other things to catch up on in this thread, but that's all for now... as far as people proactively asking on here, "where can I get one?", please keep in mind that TONMO.com is heavily trafficked. Most people don't post notes like all of us are doing here. Most visitors are only reading. I feel it is our responsibility to put certain aspects of this trade into context. There are some "edge" practices that I'm not comfortable with, in line with the latter part of my mission as displayed in my sig.

I swore I wasn't going to post on this subject since I expressed my opinion early on but Jay's (jhemdal) questions are exactly my point. Greg, do you REALLY think it was wrong for the fish curator of a city zoo to ask about a ceph in his care? Or that he has to belong to a special group to get a one time answer? Or that perhaps you are generalizing without really looking to see what kind of people are using the information that was available?


Yes, I do think it is wrong to post such questions on a public forum.

Yes, I do think that if the information is so necessary, he should have to join a select group. I have had to on many occasions in pursuit of specialized fields of knowledge, and it didn't bother me at all.

No, I am not generalizing, other than the fact that we are bombarded often by questions regarding rare cephalopods that perhaps are edited before you see them. I also recieve pm's and emails begging the questions on a daily basis.

Thales, you were never singled out...it is just that your thread had the biggest impact when it was removed at your request, and then moved to Supporter's.

In example: I have to pay dues every year to have access to the Illustrator's Library...for information. I have to pay dues to various institutions to be able to view their collections for illustrational use, and I have to pay for every previous image or data gathered by other illustrator's and scientists. I fail to see why this is such a big deal...that is, unless we want the information to be free to everyone who wants to go out and buy a wonderpus, etc., which says to me "people who don't want to spend the money to properly do it"...the very sort we are trying to weed out.

Or is this an ego boosting thing? I am confused by the upset caused here...it appears to be catering to the lowest common denominator.

Hi everyone,
Thales, rest assured that your thread was not targeted in any way. Our "code" transcends any one thread or member -- I think it stands on face value.

I understand that is the idea, at the same time my thread was moved out of the public eye without so much as an explanation in the forum it was in. Non TONMO heads that were reading the thread find it vanished.

I will say, though, that your thread shone a spotlight on the issue that I felt we needed to address.

But my thread wasn't targeted?

Now, with regard to the enforcement of that code -- a couple of things. One, the code was published well after the Fontenelle thread became very rich in content. You'll notice that several past threads have also been moved to the Supporter's forum.

I am not seeing any of them there, perhaps I am missing something.

For going forward, I am suggesting that we should "lock" any new thread dealing with poorly understood species, with link which points to our code.

Just so I understand, it wasn't that my thread showed a wunderpus in an aquarium, its that it showed too many good pics of a wunderpus in an aquarium?

I have other things to catch up on in this thread, but that's all for now... as far as people proactively asking on here, "where can I get one?", please keep in mind that TONMO.com is heavily trafficked. Most people don't post notes like all of us are doing here. Most visitors are only reading. I feel it is our responsibility to put certain aspects of this trade into context. There are some "edge" practices that I'm not comfortable with, in line with the latter part of my mission as displayed in my sig.

So the evidence that Greg was talking about doesn't really exist? It isn't that we know that people are asking 'where can I get one' but we are assuming that is happening because the site is so heavily trafficked? How do we know they aren't reading and going away the idea of keeping such animals in context from the content of the threads?


EDIT:
Tony, I just reread this post and see there is a danger of it seeming argumentative or confrontational. I didn't not mean it that way, I was just trying to be straightforward. I hope you understand. RR

(Preface) I've found myself to be increasingly less tolerant of individuals and groups that tell me what is or is not appropriate. I inherited a large stripe of independence from my mother's side of the family, and it seems to get stronger with age.

That being said, I think that it is flat wrong to censor good information. Many have stated that they don't believe that keeping wonderpus and mimics in captivity. Stating opinions is a national treasure to be sure, but when they are policed and censored, it is no longer an open forum but a dictatorship, regardless of the good will intended by those that are doing the censoring.

Is the public at large crass, uneducated, illiterate, and feeble? Maybe so, but that does not give anyone the right to decide what information they are capable of understanding. Robbing people of information and opportunity only creates more misuderstanding and hatred, you need only a quick review of history to know that. If you are going to change the world, you have to teach it properly first. You cannot sit behind closed doors, make decisions for them, and expect them to respect you for it.

Thales shared everything involved with his decision, very publicly, and has accepted the fact that it would not be liked by everyone. But he did it openly, without reservation. I am not saying that that exempts him from wrong doing (which I don't believe he has done in any great sense). He has not kept a dozen of these animals and tortured them, nor has he stated that he is completely right. He is admittedly wishy washy about the whole enterprise, but the fact that he admits all of that and is willing to discuss it makes him top notch in my opinion.

Hiding the information and the fantastic nature of the creatures is a great injustice to them, and to the intellect of the public. If you treat them like children, they will act so, but if you treat them like responsible people, you will at least have the uppper hand even if they do not respond appropriately.

I too have a great interest in saving what little there is left of the ocean, but we have thousands of years of history behind us coming to a head. One man, keeping one octopus, should not be so villified for his actions.

We have a responsible and intelligent community here, and ostrasizing one of our most accomplished members is disgraceful to me.

I disagree strongly and completely.

This information does NOT have to be available to everyone, and should be available to those WHO CARE ENOUGH to research the field.

This is absolutely ridiculous, to be questioning the facts, and somehow wanting to get public attention drawn to this wonderful animal...is this some sort of a crank?

Thales, you were never singled out...it is just that your thread had the biggest impact when it was removed at your request, and then moved to Supporter's.

The thread was moved to Supporters before my request to move it from the Supporters forum.

In example: I have to pay dues every year to have access to the Illustrator's Library...for information. I have to pay dues to various institutions to be able to view their collections for illustrational use, and I have to pay for every previous image or data gathered by other illustrator's and scientists. I fail to see why this is such a big deal...that is, unless we want the information to be free to everyone who wants to go out and buy a wonderpus, etc., which says to me "people who don't want to spend the money to properly do it"...the very sort we are trying to weed out.

That idea that one had to pay to see that content on TONMO was/is applied retroactively. If I had initially been posting to a pay site, I would have no issue at all as it would have been my choice to contribute to a for profit site. Information that was given for free on TONMO to try to inform everyone is suddenly being charged for without the consent of the author(s). If you had written a lengthily thread, for the free benefit of everyone, documenting a illustration project you were involved in on public Illustration forum, and then had it moved to the revenue generating, pay only portion of the site without warning and without consent, I would think you would at least initially feel weird about it.

I did want the information to be fee to everyone who wants to go out and buy a wunderpus because it showed how difficult it really was and was filled with disclaimers about generally why its a bad idea, and when the wunderpus dies, the thread would be filled with pictures of that as well. When I was posting the information, the policy of TONMO was that such information should be free.

Perhaps the entire ceph care section should become pay only, to make people prove they are willing to properly care for the animals before anyone helps them. If the idea is to protect cephs from people who might not really care about them, it seems we should protect all cephs, not just the pretty ones.



You earlier posted about articles and evidence. Though I have asked twice already about both, you have yet to produce either.

The thread was moved to Supporters before my request to move it from the Supporters forum.

You earlier posted about articles and evidence. Though I have asked twice already about both, you have yet to produce either.

I do believe all of us wish that had been different, but it is past now, and time to move on. If you choose to carry a grudge, fine.

Articles and evidence? Look over the past two years of posts, Thales. Since the arrival of mimic and wonderpus to our lfs's, how many have you seen? A dozen? Two dozen? I am not going to argue the point with you for too long, it seems that some of us want everybody and their brother to know the joys of keeping rare cephalopods, and to hell with the cost to the wild animals.

I am trying to look at this objectively, but am losing perspective when bashed with simplicity. I can't send you every pm I have gotten...or every email. If you don't believe me, or Colin, or any of the others, then fine...I can't change beliefs.

The truth is: Rare octopus are being imported, without much regulation. Broadcasting news of how wonderful they are willy-nilly does not help keep the importation and collection down, it increases it. Exponentially.

Many of you seem fine with that. I find that pathetic.

I disagree strongly and completely.

This information does NOT have to be available to everyone, and should be available to those WHO CARE ENOUGH to research the field.

This is absolutely ridiculous, to be questioning the facts, and somehow wanting to get public attention drawn to this wonderful animal...is this some sort of a crank?


With respect Greg,
You often use words like facts or evidence, but don't seem to produce either. There currently are no facts on the general population of the wunderpus or on the effect collection has had or on the degradation of their particular environment. I am all for promoting caution, but arguing from a position of authority that doesn't actually exist is just spreading misinformation.

With respect Greg,
You often use words like facts or evidence, but don't seem to produce either. There currently are no facts on the general population of the wunderpus or on the effect collection has had or on the degradation of their particular environment. I am all for promoting caution, but arguing from a position of authority that doesn't actually exist is just spreading misinformation.


Thanks, Thales...you just made my point entirely.

NO FACTS ON THE GENERAL POPULATION

So, do you feel vindicated?

Greg,
I am wary to continue yet another antagonistic derogatory discussion with you, a TONMO staffer, where, from you, there can be no compromise or possibility to agree to disagree, and where I am asked to defend extreme and simplified versions of positions I don't actually hold.

Sir Thales!

I am totally in your corner about agreeing to disagree. But, that being said, I can not point out deleted or blocked threads...or past pm's and emails...if you think that I am somehow on a soapbox about this issue, you would be correct, until we know more about the animal, they should not be displayed or kept.

You have your stance, and I certainly respect the wealth of knowledge that you possess in regards to the captive husbandry of cephalopods.

Greg,

I don't think you understand my stance, and I don't believe you are interested in understanding it. I think you are more interested in winning than in having a discussion about this stuff, and that makes me a little sad.

If this is going to be a personal discussion, please pm me. I do have to work today, but can get to it later on.

That aside, I do believe in winning...the position that the octo keepers are defending is weak, and I actually care more for the wild octopus than I do for the one's in the tanks across the globe. To me, they are genetically dead, which is sad.

I guess I could respond that I am bummed that some of you don't find it as sad as I do.

Greg,

You don't seem to realize that you made it personal. Your above post shows once again that you don't actually understand my position, but seem to be trying to simplify it to an extreme 'sound bite' that you can rail against.

Greg,

You don't seem to realize that you made it personal. Your above post shows once again that you don't actually understand my position, but seem to be trying to simplify it to an extreme 'sound bite' that you can rail against.

OK, I will try this once again before heading out the door.

I really don't mean this personally about you, Thales, at all. I do mean it personally for anyone who keeps wonderpus or mimics (which does include you, but is not limited to you).

Certainly, I am trying to rail quite loudly about the mismanagement of ethical considerations that have led to this disgusting time in ceph keeping, where what is "cool and neato" takes precedence over scientific knowledge. Knowledge gleaned from observation of wild animals.

The ceph keepers on this site have made their stance clear. They are going to keep cephs in captivity come hell or high water, and who cares about the environment, they want their mimics!

Yep, I am going to rail hard.

The ceph keepers on this site have made their stance clear. They are going to keep cephs in captivity come hell or high water, and who cares about the environment, they want their mimics!

Yep, I am going to rail hard.


:sad:
That is not at all my stance, and it appears that you aren't interested in understand what my stance, or others stance, actually is.

We all know the circumstances in which Thales acquired his wunderpus. He didn't go out looking for it, and it could very well be alive now only because he is the one who bought it. In general, I have very serious issues with keeping rare species in home aquariums, and I certainly would be much happier if the wholesaler had not purchased it, and even happier if no one had collected it. Thales, I would like to know if you explained to the wholesaler you got him from how rare these creatures are, and that importing them is the wrong thing to do. If you did, do you think he "got it", or is he likely to continue to import them?

Thales, I would like to know if you explained to the wholesaler you got him from how rare these creatures are, and that importing them is the wrong thing to do. If you did, do you think he "got it", or is he likely to continue to import them?

:grin: I told him it looks like they are rare, and that we don't know much about them, and that I think they shouldn't be collected until we know more. They haven't ordered any in since, and I don't believe they will. They have gotten other cephs in and their level of husbandry of those animals has increased considerably.


I have also finally added this "Things to think about before you buy a cephalopod (http://stickycricket.com/cuttle/considerations/index.html)" to my website, and it bears mentioning that the wunderpus movie is not accessible from my general ceph movies page.

Thanks.

Phew! Fun stuff! Well, I regret the thread went this direction, but that's how it goes sometimes. I trust everyone will "rise above".

I definitely have no personal grudges to bear here. I've personally met most people involved in this discussion at TONMOCON I, and hope to meet the rest at TONMOCON II. I genuinely like everyone involved in this thread discussion. Everyone is a "good person".

From what I can gather, aside from some gruff demeanor, there are a few things at play here:

1) Thales is voicing objection to his thread being moved to Supporters.

2) I saw John's (pipsquek's) objection to any level of "content control". To respond to one item -- John, I am not making any evaluations about the people who participate (post) on these forums. I agree that this is predominantly a very civil, educated and capable audience of contributors. But we also have many lurkers, and this information is for public display. You and I have no idea about the credentials of the people who read these forums. Furthermore, to an example I gave to Thales when I first advised him on the decision to move the thread, if there was a thread that talked about blatant mistreatment of cephs, I imagine most people would support its suppression or removal.

Since this has turned into a debate (and heated at that), I am going to "pull rank" on this, and basically say that the final decision rests with me. While everyone may not agree with my stance, at this time my stance is that TONMO.com does not condone the "promotion" of mimics and other "exotics" as viable candidates for an in-home tank. Any thread which promotes them for in-home care will likely be closed, and any readers will be referenced to our code of ethics.

I regret that any of this would become personal, I think Thales is a GREAT guy and found him to be great company in Monterey -- he is a highly capable ceph keeper (something I know nothing about, btw), and an excellent educator.

My concern was (and remains) that the Fontenelle thread (and others) did not adequately address the problems in the trade and the unknowns surrounding exotic procurement. That is through not fault of anyone's, by the way -- I see it as a flaw in the medium. I'd rather that TONMO.com does inspire any passer by to believe that they should ask their LFS if they, too, can get a mimic.

The idea that TONMO.com might actually be causing harm to the animals that I sought to celebrate when I created this site in the first place concerns me deeply, hence the action.

Tony,

As I said all along, TONMO is your site and you should do as you see fit. :grin: I am particularly happy that you allow this discussion to continue, some sites wouldn't. I fully appreciate you letting me express my issues with the moving of my thread and the way it was done. I hope (and am pretty sure) that you understand that the only reason I brought them up is because I care about cephs and this community - if I didn't I might have just left without a second thought. Being able to discuss it has allowed the feelings of alienation from this community I originally felt to begin to subside.

It does seem to me that if you are worried that TONMO.com might be causing harm to the animals you sought to celebrate when you created this site, you might want to make the entire ceph care section for members only. Perhaps keep some of the articles public, but not the discussion.
There is far more bad husbandry of the 'run of the mill' cephs than there is of the 'exotic/rare' cephs in the aquarium hobby simply because the number of the 'run of the mill' cephs coming in is much more massive that the 'exotic/rares'. The 'run of the mills' are more accessible because they are far less expensive than the 'exotics'. As with 'exotics', any wild ceph collection for the industry produces x number of dead for every one that makes it to the aquarium store. As with 'exotics', any wild collection of cephs has risks to the environment and to the population of the ceph being collected. As with 'exotics', any 'n3wbE' surfing this site coming across pics of cephs being kept successfully in tanks gets the idea that they can do it too even if they don't bother to read the caveats. Remember that, at least in the US, every warm water ceph is really an 'exotic'. It seems that if we are to really care about these animals as a whole, the arguments about restricting some of the discussion of ceph husbandry to a closed forum should apply to all the animals, not just the pretty ones.

I have always celebrated the fact that the hobby of keeping cephalopods in the home aquarium is a new and exciting hobby. Now, I don't know anymore?

you might want to make the entire ceph care section for members only. Perhaps keep some of the articles public, but not the discussion.
This is exactly what I am weighing! Not "Supporters" only, but "members" only. By the way, it's not the "pretty" ones that are highlighted in our code of ethics, it's the "octopuses whose populations are threatened or whose status is not known".

Colin, your post could mean a few things, and I always value your input, so I'll ask. Is your statement "Now, I don't know anymore?" a bit tongue in cheek, as if to say, "this thread has gotten ugly, what has happened to our community?", or are you literally saying, "I used to think that cephs in the home was great, but now that I know more about the trade and am more sensitive to the ethical concerns surrounding it, I'm really not sure that keeping cephs at all is a good thing." Or both?

EDIT: By the way, for those who may not know, Colin has serious ceph-keeping credentials and is a Countryside Ranger in Scotland. Colin has advanced diplomas in both Fish Biology & Fish Health and Water Quality & Filtration, and is a licensed amphibian worker. I would not question his authority on animal care ethics in any regard (in fact he basically wrote the code). I am just trying to understand whether his comment was one of frustration regarding the tenor in this forum, or whether through his advanced learnings he has taken on a different view on ceph keeping in the home?

The later Tony,

It seems that there is a very fine line. I have to add my weight 100% to keeping captive bred cephs where possible.

Also, I have been very aware of the trade for a long time, however now I work in the conservation side of things rather than zoos etc, I have a more commited outlook on the husbandry of animals and the conservation of their natural habitats.

My main hobby is keeping aquatic animals at home, but I won't stop doing that anytime soon. However, I will not keep an indvidual animal or species which is threatened in the wild which I have no chance of breeding to pass on their young to prevent the capture of more wild animals of their species. I will not glamorise the keeping of animals for the sake that they are rare.

A species of animal which is well studied and not considered endangered is a good candidate for people to keep as a pet.

A species of animal which has no concrete evidence of wild populations, no chance of reproduction and no value other than pretty pictures should not be kept by amateur keepers.

I just read the EDIT Tony and to be specific, I havnt refined my code on ceph keeping ethics, more I have became more vocal. I still believe that anyone wishing to keep any animal, be it a stick insect, tiger, ant, whale shark or anything should carefully research any animal.

This is exactly what I am weighing! Not "Supporters" only, but "members" only. By the way, it's not the "pretty" ones that are highlighted in our code of ethics, it's the "octopuses whose populations are threatened or whose status is not known".

I don't think you mean just octopus! :grin:
I believe that bandensis population status is not known in the wild, and we certainly don't know what effect the collection of the vast amounts of eggs we saw coming in to wholesalers last year has had on that population.

For my money, I think either all public discussion or all member discussion is the way to go. I don't think trying to police what is acceptable does anyone any good, and having open discussion about both 'run of the mill' and 'exotic' species with membership takes care of many of the issues brought up in the past week.



I think it is important to remember that ceph keeping is only a tiny part of the marine ornamental trade, and that trade can be pretty sickening once you look under the covers. Any connection to it, from hobbyist to collector, can be hard to ethically justify - even an all propagated coral aquarium can be hard to justify. Like I said in another thread, I would not be surprised to find myself out of it completely in the future. I think there is real possibility for change in the near future, but it is going to be an long, ugly road and I don't know how long I will have the money or strength or drive to continue down it.


EDIT - just to add, but I am sure it is clear, I think that keeping all the discussion public would be my preference. :grin:

I don't think you mean just octopus! :grin:
Definitely agreed! Noticed that. Will edit to "cephalopods".

As you can see, this discussion in particular is thriving! Maybe not all good, but there is a good discussion in here. I wouldn't want to suppress this -- let me quickly say that I am a strong advocate of "free speech"; I've run this open forum for 7 years now (and used to manage online community message boards and Websites as a product manager for Prodigy Services Company back in the ice ages ('92-'98) -- for the first three years there were no browsers, it was a proprietary service!) -- uh, anyway, enough memory lane there... point being, I've studied this stuff for a long time and I am not seeking to apply an unwarranted "heavy hand". But I am eager to take a stance in the interests of cephs.

I think it is important to remember that ceph keeping is only a tiny part of the marine ornamental trade, and that trade can be pretty sickening once you look under the covers. Any connection to it, from hobbyist to collector, can be hard to ethically justify.
That's my new personal discovery. :smile: I do realize that ceph-keeping is a relatively small piece of a bigger trade, but the idea here is that threads and videos demonstrating their momentary beauty when successfully held in captivity help promote it, and help feul the ceph aspect of the trade. I'd prefer we admire them in their natural habitat.

And when you think about the food industry, cephs brokered for trade is really miniscule. I don't have stats, but I have conventional wisdom, and I have all y'all (as Greg would say).

TONMO.com is not an activist site, so we're not about to start an Octopus Meat is Murder campaign, but I wouldn't shut it down if one started. :wink:. When Octobot finds new threads about ceph recipes (which is every day), I delete them. That is not "censorship" (at least not in the "bad" sense); that is content control.

There are certain topics that are within TONMO.com's domain, and others which are not. If they're not, they are off-topic and threads are deleted, or moved, or locked. What has changed here is that the advocacy and promotion of keeping certain species is basically off-topic for TONMO.com (and indeed, not condoned per our code of ethics).

I'm still weighing the right way to enforce; we have many options -- I am very confident we will work this out in the right way -- "status quo" will not do, however!

When a library bans books from it's shelves, it's censorship. What is the difference here? Is TONMO destined to become the Vatican library, open only to those with the proper clearance, the proper faith or currency?

How about this. So now the information is gone, and so are the voices of dissent. So now, when someone wants to find out about wonderpus and mimics, they will end up somewhere else because there is nothing here for them. Who will they ask, their LFS, internet FS, some quack done the street that has a turtle in a bathtub? Where else will they get the right information, which is "This is a difficult and little understood animal, cherish it, but please do not take them home."

Tony, I understand that you have to make the final decision regarding the image that you want the site to have. All I am asking is that it is one that believes in education over censorship. There is nothing that we can do about the population of humans on the planet, which is the REAL problem.

I understand the problem of lurkers, the internet is not the only place that they exist. But what kind of example is it to set by keeping them in the dark. The kind of people that you are most worried about are going to do whatever they want to do anyway, regardless of the code of ethics, which I fully support. But Thales bought his mimic BEFORE they were posted.

I think the content should be made available, because if people don't know these amazing animals are out there, they will never even know that they need support. Put a page in between with the code of ethics, and explain why you feel the way that you do about it, and make it clearly understood that you do not support it, but you MUST educate. You cannot simply lock the information away in a vault. Guns are much more dangerous than one man with one octopus, but responsible gun owners make the world safer. Responsible ceph keepers can help the oceans.

When a library bans books from it's shelves, it's censorship. What is the difference here?
TONMO.com is not a government "public" agency or a government "public" Website. It's privately owned by me, and I set the parameters for the content. Just like a magazine, or Fark.com, or any other "managed" community site.
How about this. So now the information is gone, and so are the voices of dissent. So now, when someone wants to find out about wonderpus and mimics, they will end up somewhere else because there is nothing here for them. Who will they ask, their LFS, internet FS, some quack done the street that has a turtle in a bathtub? Where else will they get the right information, which is "This is a difficult and little understood animal, cherish it, but please do not take them home."
I contemplated this before taking action. The fact is that there are countless lurkers who will have seen that thread, and despite any voices of dissent, the availability of the content, videos and images is likely more damaging than suppressing it. Consider that we could also have debates about delicious octopus recipes, with videos showing how to kill and prepare an octopus, and others could cry out in horror and dismay, but the poster could go right along describing their nightly dinners and preparations. Should this thread be allowed on TONMO.com? Well, I'm sure there are tons of opinions on that -- but again, TONMO.com is a private property -- and my answer would be no, I wouldn't allow it, I'd suppress it.

I do not aim to be trigger-happy or oppressive with content, so I want to assuage any concerns that we're going to delete or lock mass threads. But will actions be taken against threads which promote, or even discuss, the how's and the where's and the what's of keeping rare species such as mimics/zebras/etc.? Yes... I regret that it is upsetting to some but it's definitely the policy for TONMO.com.

By the way, I do realize that the code of ethics came out AFTER Thales' thread was in full gear. I need to be clear that this action was in no way a reprimand of Thales in any way. It was an enforcement of policy. I had no expectations that Thales should have been able to predict this policy. In the truest form, nothing personal.

There are options with regard to what actions are taken, and I'm open to constructive ideas, but I will ask everyone to understand the parameters of what TONMO.com does and does not support and condone -- and I think the code of ethics lays that out clearly. I'm open to input on enforcement and control of this, so as not to further the damage.

I agree to some extent that responsible ceph keepers can help the oceans -- but there is a difference between sharing that info with "anyone on the street" and sharing it within a community of experts. Remember, my action was to MOVE it to the Supporters' forum. I did not intend to remove it. I only removed it because Thales asked me to (and I didn't have to, by the way, but I did out of deference and respect), because he wasn't comfortable putting it behind the "paid" Supporters barrier.

I am considering whether a separate, non-pay but member-only forum is something we need to employ to allow the free exchange of information but in a controlled manner.

When I was managing a bookstore there were a lot of issues about censorship, people coming in and demanding that certain books not be sold, things like that. I am seriously disturbed, in general, about things like that, and every year I would do a big window display on banned books, which included the Bible, by the way. (All of which were books that we carried, I never had to order any of them.) That being said, there were some books which would not be displayed at a child's eye level, and if a 15 year old came in and wanted to order "The Anarchists Cookbook", I made sure that his parents knew that it contained, among other things, instructions for making bombs. Was I censoring his reading? Sure, but I didn't want any kid blowing himself up. Sometimes we have to weigh the potential damage. I didn't tell the kids they couldn't get the book, but once the parents saw the book, or found out what was in it, none of the kids had that book. I think it makes sense to keep the enticing videos, pictures and information "above the eye level" of the kids and occasional mental incompetents who lurk here without a clue about what is involved in responsible ceph care, and are more concerned about the cool factor than they are about the welfare of any animal.

I'd like to produce an Octopodcast on this subject -- Greg offered himself, and I thought getting both views would make a great show -- Thales, PM me if you are game! I'd like to do two quick segments (with me interviewing you both separately, one-on-one) and have them compiled into in one episode. I'll let you both listen to the finished product prior to my publishing it just in case anyone is concerned that it could be edited unfairly or misrepresented in some way. Perhaps it can be an effective way to make a statement -- perhaps useful as an alternate means of expression.

Rather hot, tired, and nonplussed here in Phoenix.

I think the fundemental message of the ethical consideration has been diverted by a seeming "personal" barrage, in which my name seems to figure.
This was in no way, shape, or form, my intention.

I have not "won". Cephs will continue to be imported, but I will fight it at every level, from the legal stance of importation to the rights of the collectors. I would like to see them all out of business.

It does appear that we are dealing with the "here and now", rather than the "hey, what happened?" twenty years in the future.

I would like my children to be able to swim down and see a wonderpus in the ocean, maybe some tangs and a grouper too. Am I really asking all of that much from you?

This boils down to a "rights of individual" battle. Obviously, most of you feel that your rights precede those of future humaniforms, and of the wild animals themselves. If you can all look into the mirror, and be content with what you see, then I guess you are correct, and I am totally wrong.

Greg

Once again, I believe that you very much misunderstand/misrepresent what it is that I (at least I) actually think about the subject. :grin:

I suggest that at least the three of you (Greg, Tony, Richard) have a beer in Florida; posts are such ill equipped vehicles of nuance and opinion. I'll gladly join, always up for a healthy discussion and a well deserved brewski!

Good morning! Let me state some things:

1) OB is correct!!

2) Obviously this didn't go well. In hindsight, it does turn out that moving Thales' thread to the Supporters' forum was not a good idea. I can't really defend that position.

3) I have yet to hear anyone disagree with the "code of ethics" itself. Other than needing to change the word "octopus" with "cephalopod" in one or two spots, everyone is in full agreement.

So that leaves us with "how do we enforce it". I am experimenting with an "Exotic and Rare Species" forum under Ceph Care. The idea is simply that you need to be logged in order to view its contents. By forcing login, we are assured that the user is registered, and as such, they have accepted our terms of service, which have our "code" embedded within them. That way we have confidence that anyone who seeks info on keeping exotics isn't just some "window shopper".

Thales, I'm particularly interested in knowing whether you'd find this agreeable...

I think that is a tremendous idea...the information will be usable for those who actually will bother to go through a process, and not have to pay for it, which seems to be the biggest problem.

Nicely solved, Tony, Nancy, and Monti ! :cheers:

By the bye, I'll always sit down with friends and a cold one !

it seems that in the code of ethics there should be the statement that ceph keeping is for expert or advanced hobbyists only. it should be explicit and not just implied. after all its intended audience is potential keepers. also i am in agreement about where this is headed - " in the end, we conserve only what we love. we love only what we understand. we will understand only what we are taught." thank you for tonmo. zy

I don't drink beer, but I'm in.

Good morning! Let me state some things:

OB is correct!!



Drunken ethics! Yeah!


2) Obviously this didn't go well. In hindsight, it does turn out that moving Thales' thread to the Supporters' forum was not a good idea. I can't really defend that position.

Sure you can Tony! You were doing what you thought best, and I cannot fault you for it at all. I am mightly impressed/releived/happy that you were willing to even hear what I had to say about it.

I have a related concern with the merging of Jay's post into this one. If he comes back to see if there is a response to his post in the forum he posted it, will he know it has been merged, will he think it was deleted, or some other option I am not thinking of?

3) I have yet to hear anyone disagree with the "code of ethics" itself. Other than needing to change the word "octopus" with "cephalopod" in one or two spots, everyone is in full agreement.

I am still a little worried about the 'collect your own' part of the COE, and with the title 'code of ethics' but your milage may vary. Other than that, sounds good. :grin:

So that leaves us with "how do we enforce it". I am experimenting with an "Exotic and Rare Species" forum under Ceph Care. The idea is simply that you need to be logged in order to view its contents. By forcing login, we are assured that the user is registered, and as such, they have accepted our terms of service, which have our "code" embedded within them. That way we have confidence that anyone who seeks info on keeping exotics isn't just some "window shopper".

Thales, I'm particularly interested in knowing whether you'd find this agreeable...

Totally agreeable! :grin: I don't remember if TONMO is set to send an email on registration, but if it is, I think adding the COE to that email text might also be a good idea. Also having the COE 'stickyed' (sp?) at the top of the forum seems like a good idea, but I am sure you already thought of that!
Tony, what do you think of dropping an empty, locked copy of the Fontenelle thread into the Journals and Photos forum that has a link to the new forum? That way, the friends that I had following the thread would know where to look for it. Just an idea, and not really the most important thing to me, but I thought I would ask.

All this got me started writing an article about the dangers/pitfalls of keeping 'exotics' and if, upon review, that would be something TONMO would be interested in hosting, I would be happy to share.

Wow.

I've been on many forums over the last 14 years or so, and I've seen the situation "start" a million times before; but I've never...Never...Seen a solution like this before.

I'm so pleased to be on a forum where people and disagree, be misunderstood, and still come to a mutual concensus and resolution!!

Way to go, guys!

Well, you have to realize that many of us are friends, and quite a few of the members are considered to be the "top notch" in their fields of interest, which leads to many a disagreement, but quite a lot of mutual respect also.

Tonmo, basically, just kicks a**.

Thales, I think all that works, that will be on my to-do list this weekend.

Regarding the note from Jay, I have sent him a full mea culpa, and he let me know he understood.

The changes have been implemented!

I appreciate the kind words, and likewise, I appreciate that no one up and left us, during a time when we were uncertain (yet decisive in our actions), and ultimately headed down the wrong path, under my direction. Thanks again for sticking with us through this and please accept my apologies for the mishap.

Back to our regularly scheduled discussions about cephalopods!

Well, you have to realize that many of us are friends, and quite a few of the members are considered to be the "top notch" in their fields of interest, which leads to many a disagreement, but quite a lot of mutual respect also.

Tonmo, basically, just kicks a**.

Agreed!

Thanks to TONMO staff for everything!

I'm glad it worked out.

Greg, I want your kids to be able to swim with the fishes too, but to be honest, I don't think it makes a snowflakes' difference it hell ,IN THE LONG RUN, whether or not people keep exotic pets if we don't do something about the massive number of people on th planet. I do my best not to think only about children and grandchildren, but ancestors as well, even though I will never have any of either.

I think the largest problem here is that it truly would not matter if people kept exotic pets if humans were at a Middle Ages world population. And many will knee jerk and say that there is no solution, that we can't go backwards, but a solution was found here on TONMO, and that is a positive example. It will take hundreds of years if we started today, but if we don't.....

Tony, I'm a proud to be a member of something that finds a solution for the group, good work to all of you.

Urrrr.... Pipsquek? :wink:

Idiom: Swim with the fishes

Meaning: If someone is swimming with the fishes, they are dead, especially if they have been murdered. 'Sleep with the fishes' is an alternative form.

ob, what's your first language?? Maybe I'll give you some limestone loafers for trying to teach me my own language. :razz:

Stylish, yet very uncomfortable :wink:

I'm sorry, it was just too good to leave hanging around. Got an interesting e-mail yesterday explaining how an agreement would be "singed" before being sent back to me. I found that rather amusing.

cn I k33p 10 cttl n 4 blrng n m 2 glln?

Tony, how do you suppose Tonmo hits stack up against subscribers and readers of TFH?

Because it seems to me that "casual" readers of the magazine are going to be very interested in keeping cephs, and while maybe there is a good percentage of them that are good hobbyists, I imagine that there are quite a few fish killers in there as well.

I've never had a cephalopod in a tank before, just fish, so I really don't know how expensive they are, but I imagine that you could pick up an octopus for less $100. And as far as I can tell, there are few breeders culturing cephs of any sort. It seems to me that this is going to create a much higher demand for these animals, even though I am sure that everyone that wrote articles did a fine job (I haven't read them) explaining the downsides and consequences of keeping cephs.

Of course, we have no way of measuring, but I think that importers and LFSs are going to be ordering whatever they can get their hands on to fill the demand, including exotics. Because god knows most of them don't really care ,right?, they are just in the entertainment industry.

Sorry to be such a downer, I know that being published is important and all, I just seem to be smelling a little hypocrisy since no one is complaining about how this is going to damage the reputation of responsible ceph keepers. If I am just missing the discussion on this, please point me in the right direction.

John, that's a totally fair observation, but I will try to explain why I don't think this is a problem:

The reality is that the TFH initiative was a completely parallel effort, driven by Nancy and Carol to completion. Nancy was careful to stipulate "no pictures of mimics" in the magazine, and I believe her article speaks to which species are best for keeping, and which to avoid.

On multiple occassions (in different form), I posed a straw man proposal (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man_proposal) to the TONMO.com staff that perhaps we should close down ceph care altogether -- after all, talking about ceph care, posting pics, etc., feeds a problematic trade (at least in part). The team roundly agreed that removing ceph care discussions and content from TONMO.com is not the right answer (by any stretch).

Keeping "known" species of cephs is arguably a good thing, since it helps all of us understand these creatures in a better way -- and TONMO.com can help ceph keepers employ best practices when caring for them.

The staff (and community) all seems to be in alignment that in the end, the right decision was to require member registration in order to view topics related to exotic and rare species. So, we created that forum with those access requirements, and moved relevant posts there.

So, in that regard, I think we've been consistent -- our forum policies and structure essentially matches the article content and approach taken with TFH.

On the other hand, yes, our stated sensitivity to "sensationalizing" cephs (or at least my own sensitivity to it) would seem to be a bit compromised by supporting and promoting an all-ceph issue of TFH. My response to that is this: this edition was assembled with the highest of integrity (which is par for the course for TFH itself), and prospective owners are being directed to TONMO.com, where I feel we help make the world a better place for cephs -- so in the end, it's all upside.

Now, some will say that the picture on the cover itself is incentive enough for people to run out and buy cephs without educating themselves, and that's a bad thing. I've never been too concerned with images vs. text. I don't think we can (or want to) control all aspects of consumer impulse -- I personally just want to be sure that ceph care content is always put into the "right" context (i.e., responsible ceph keeping must always be promoted). TFH definitely accomplishes this. For TONMO.com, access to "fringe" practices should be restricted in some regard, and our registration-only access to the Exotics and Rare Species forum ensures that people will at least have an opportunity to read our forum guidelines and "code of ethics" prior to accessing.

Well, the cat is certainly out of the bag...local stores are clamouring for octopus all of the sudden. But, the articles inside are very well written, and do stipulate the cares and concerns over maintaining octopus in captivity, all in all, I think the outcome will be better for cephs than worse...you can't keep everything hushhush for too long.

Hey, my mollies just had three litters.

So I guess we should all brace ourselves for another rash of new members? :smile:

I hope so. Mostly I would worry about the people who just glance at the magazine and get the idea that keeping a ceph is cool now. IME, for every person who reads an article about any animal in the aquarium hobby, there are 10 that glance at it and take away impressions, and 100 who more who don't even know there are places to read articles.

I do think that it is important to realize that going more 'mainstream' with ceph keeping will have both good and bad effects.

Some people will read the articles and get more educated, and some wont.
As Greg says, we are already seeing a bump in ceph interest, and 'exotic' cephs will be brought in because some stores will think 'if people want the ugly ones, they will really want the pretty ones'. Even having more of the 'plain' cephs collected will result in more moralities - its the nature of the industry.

Seahorses are a good parallel to cephs. There is great info easily available about them, and more captive bred ones available than ever before, however there is still a booming trade in both 'plain' and 'exotic' wild caught ponies. I suspect the same will be true of cephs.
Thats how an industry based on volume sales of live animals works, and will continue to work until there are tons of cheap, beautiful, captive bread animals always available (or until the industry is shut down).

Is it something we should be concerned about? Perhaps...I do think it is something to keep in mind.

i did'nt say it first but---In the end, we conserve only what we love. We love only what we understand. And we will understand only what we are taught. -- zyan

There will be a rash of new members this time of year that has nothing to do with the TFH ceph issue - about the time that school lets out, we get lots of younger members interested in keeping a ceph for the first time.

Nancy

John, that's a totally fair observation, but I will try to explain why I don't think this is a problem:

The reality is that the TFH initiative was a completely parallel effort, driven by Nancy and Carol to completion. Nancy was careful to stipulate "no pictures of mimics" in the magazine, and I believe her article speaks to which species are best for keeping, and which to avoid.

snip...

The staff (and community) all seems to be in alignment that in the end, the right decision was to require member registration in order to view topics related to exotic and rare species. So, we created that forum with those access requirements, and moved relevant posts there.

So, in that regard, I think we've been consistent -- our forum policies and structure essentially matches the article content and approach taken with TFH.

On the other hand, yes, our stated sensitivity to "sensationalizing" cephs (or at least my own sensitivity to it) would seem to be a bit compromised by supporting and promoting an all-ceph issue of TFH. My response to that is this: this edition was assembled with the highest of integrity (which is par for the course for TFH itself), and prospective owners are being directed to TONMO.com, where I feel we help make the world a better place for cephs -- so in the end, it's all upside.


What's the feeling about the nautilus article in TFH in terms of their being in the 'exotic and rare species' forum on TONMO?

I know most of you disagree with me about captive cephalopods. To be honest, the nautilus article bothered me a bit...as has the sudden influx of people wanting to keep cephs at home.

Yes, it is my paranoia at work, and I am doing my best to just be as helpful as possible, and keep my big yap shut.

What's the feeling about the nautilus article in TFH in terms of their being in the 'exotic and rare species' forum on TONMO?
My personal view is that perhaps TFH and/or the authors could have done more to emphasize that keeping nautilus should be reserved for scientists or the very very experienced, due to their status and challenges with care. To their credit they didn't couch it as a walk in the park, either. Their approach and philosophy is exemplified through their use of the Jacques Cousteau quote, "The impossible missions are the only ones which succeed."

I'm not trying to fault TFH, in fact I'd rather not even pass any such judgement during this exciting time for the community when they are heavily promoting our site and showcasing member articles. Obviously the magazine is not as motivated to highlight all the problems with the trade as we are, because they are more dependent on their advertisers than TONMO.com is.

The bottom line is that I understand what TFH offers and who their audience is, and I'm very grateful that they have dedicated this issue to cephalopods, and that they so warmly embraced the TONMO.com community in the process!