I post progress of my 3g pico reef here and came across this thread. I pray no one else jumps on this bandwagon......

http://www.nano-reef.com/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=37&t=112726&st=0#entry1060227 (http://www.nano-reef.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=112726)

You might want to check that link Phuntoon. It isn't working for me and might be broken.

Works for me

worked for me too.

...and a well worded reply ! Yep, some people pop out of the woodwork now and again keeping cephs in tiny tanks, but they fade away fast.

Good call on your part.

Greg

...and a well worded reply ! Yep, some people pop out of the woodwork now and again keeping cephs in tiny tanks, but they fade away fast.

I also think the reply is quite good. It's worrisome how many people responded with "cool, I wanna do this, too," yet you're the only one who seems to have pointed out that this guy's octo is quite likely more alive from luck than good practice... I hope that those folks follow your link if they're really interested in ceph-keeping.

It's a bit frustrating, in that if I didn't spend time reading a lot here, I'd probably have the same attitude of "wow, this guy's doing it, and those pictures look amazing, etc." -- although my inclination would then be to google and read a lot, but I've noticed that many people just skip that step and run off to the LFS for a 3-gallon tank. But I can't really fault the responders for their initial reactions... it is, in fact, cool to see that cute little octo in that tank, for about 5 seconds until my brain kicks in and thinks about the octo's likely experience of the water chemistry.

sigh.

Kind of like the guy who was all about using 29g's for bimacs, right?

Yep, we see a lot of those come and go...in another thread, I responded to a similar sentiment, in that I appreciate the enthusiasm, but not the realism.

Booo ****ing hoo...Its alive and everything.

Ohh and I have kept plenty of Bimacs in 20g that lived just about a year..I dont wanna hear any crap saying boohoo..it lived but woulda been better in a larger tank..Hell I live just fine in my house but would be SOOO much more comfortable in a 10bedroom house..I live well off my salary but would be doing sooo much better if I made 200grand a year..

Its funny..Someone ask questions on this forum and there is NEVER a reply..But when something like this is posted all the people post away bitching and moaning.

OHH yea...I am not the one with the 3gal tank and octo..Just saying what i want

Although it's fine if you want to express an alternative opinion, please try to be civil and follow the "no trolls" guidelines in the forum rules. It's OK to disagree, but the way you did it is disrespectful and inappropriate.

Booo ****ing hoo...Its alive and everything.

Ohh and I have kept plenty of Bimacs in 20g that lived just about a year..I dont wanna hear any crap saying boohoo..it lived but woulda been better in a larger tank..Hell I live just fine in my house but would be SOOO much more comfortable in a 10bedroom house..I live well off my salary but would be doing sooo much better if I made 200grand a year..

Its funny..Someone ask questions on this forum and there is NEVER a reply..But when something like this is posted all the people post away bitching and moaning.

OHH yea...I am not the one with the 3gal tank and octo..Just saying what i want

Yes but you haven't been taken out of your natural environment and dumped into a less than desirable facility. My belief is that if we keep these animals then the onus is on us to keep them as well as we possibly can; not just in a tank that keeps them alive. These are intelligent animals and need room to explore. For many years humans kept animals like bears in bear pits or big cats in small concrete enclosures and they lived......but now this is considered inhumane as the enclosures were too small and lacked stimulation for intelligent animals...I consider a too small octopus tank to be the equivalent of a 19th century bear pit!

BTW 05Xrunner, like many other Tonmoers I try to answer as many questions as I can (at least those that I feel qualified to comment on!) but like many (if not all) of the members of Tonmo I have a VERY busy schedule and sometimes I miss some or don't get to them for ages. It's human nature too, that the ones we feel strongly about (eg FW vs marine food, proper habitat for captive animals etc) are the ones we see and answer first and often the most vigorously!

My :twocents:

J

Some of you may remember Pakoc, and how we went at it hammer and tongs...oddly enough, now I find myself on that same side of the fence.
The morality of keeping animals in less than good housing bothers me...I am not wailing about every dead octopus, just have had a shift in attitude towards maintaining them to higher standards than what is considered "ok".

As far as returning questions that are asked, I return EVERY single email, pm, or posted item that I have experience with, and so do the rest of the staff members. I don't have the time to answer every question that is already been handled by others, or by our extremely well written ceph-care articles...all available for free.

I wonder sometimes if the public knows how hard Tony and the staff work at maintaining this site.

Oh man, pakoc. Good old thread number 557 (http://www.tonmo.com/forums/showthread.php?t=557).

Oh yeah...

People
Against
Keeping
Octopuses in
Captivity

Jeez, did I get led around by the nose, or what ?:oops:

It is kind of funny, though, that I now support more of the viewpoint of not keeping cephs in captivity...due mostly to the sorts of people who keep them in non-ideal surroundings.

The replies of encouragement are really starting to frustrate/depress me. The latest for example:

"i CAN'T BELIEVE PEOPLE ARE GIVING YOU KRAP. What you have done is truly genius and the extra care you are taking to keep the little guy fed and healthy is an icon for our hobby. Keep up the inspiring work.
Any mor pics?"

My reply to this one was a little more harsh than the last. It just bums me out that there is nothing I can really do about it. I'm really tempted to pull my ongoing thread and not go back just so I don't have to see that thread back at the top. I can just see all the seeds planted in the heads of nano/pico/way to freakin small for an octo type aquarium hobbyists. I know it's probably premature to assume, but in my own little mind it scares me to think that someday an octopus could possibly be the next "fad" creature for a nano tank the way certain corals are from time to time. Some people just don't get the difference between coral and other livestock. A coral doesn't know how big of an enclosure it's in and doesn't really care as long as it's water parameters are good and it's specific requirements are met. It also irks me when I hear people putting one or more fish in a 2.5 or 3 gallon, but I'm of course partial to to cephalopods which is why this one "struck a nerve." Before I see anymore of these pro-octo in a pico replies.....what do you all suggest I do here? Keep on discouraging this kind of practice with more replies, or do I just shut up and hope it runs its course and goes away?

Send them over here so we can all pile on??? :sagrin:

The replies of encouragement are really starting to frustrate/depress me. The latest for example:

"i CAN'T BELIEVE PEOPLE ARE GIVING YOU KRAP. What you have done is truly genius and the extra care you are taking to keep the little guy fed and healthy is an icon for our hobby. Keep up the inspiring work.
Any mor pics?"

My reply to this one was a little more harsh than the last. It just bums me out that there is nothing I can really do about it. I'm really tempted to pull my ongoing thread and not go back just so I don't have to see that thread back at the top. I can just see all the seeds planted in the heads of nano/pico/way to freakin small for an octo type aquarium hobbyists. I know it's probably premature to assume, but in my own little mind it scares me to think that someday an octopus could possibly be the next "fad" creature for a nano tank the way certain corals are from time to time. Some people just don't get the difference between coral and other livestock. A coral doesn't know how big of an enclosure it's in and doesn't really care as long as it's water parameters are good and it's specific requirements are met. It also irks me when I hear people putting one or more fish in a 2.5 or 3 gallon, but I'm of course partial to to cephalopods which is why this one "struck a nerve." Before I see anymore of these pro-octo in a pico replies.....what do you all suggest I do here? Keep on discouraging this kind of practice with more replies, or do I just shut up and hope it runs its course and goes away?

You can't change the world alone. Don't let this eat you up too much.

I worked in Animal Control Services for 3 and a half years and it was the most depressing time of my life. I assisted with the euthanasia of about 2,100 dogs in that time period, and probably 3 times that many cats. All due to peoples disregard for the proper care of their pets. It has made me pretty bitter toward people. I have a very cynical outlook on the human race and quite honestly, life in general.

You planted the seed.

I run into these people on a daily basis...you just have to sigh, straighten your shoulders, and march on.
Keep on fighting for what you believe in, and remember that a lot of us are with you.

It's tough, we get stuff like this all the time. Direct them to Tonmo, if they're interested in holding their animals in the best possible way, rather than have them just existing in the aquatic equivalent of a bear pit they'll come.

I always think if I can just change the opinion or engage the ethusiasm of just 1 person (i'd prefer more, but you've got to be realistic) then I'm achieving something (I've put a few passengers from cruise ships off orange roughy for life :twisted: )

Cheers

Jean

...then you get the sort like my mother in law, who ordered Orange Roughy last week out at dinner, just to piss me off. "Well, if they're going to be extinct, I might as well enjoy them."

Tempting to throw the glass of wine in her face, but I was good.

...then you get the sort like my mother in law, who ordered Orange Roughy last week out at dinner, just to piss me off. "Well, if they're going to be extinct, I might as well enjoy them."

Tempting to throw the glass of wine in her face, but I was good.

Maybe she'll get gastrointestinal distress from it...

...then you get the sort like my mother in law, who ordered Orange Roughy last week out at dinner, just to piss me off. "Well, if they're going to be extinct, I might as well enjoy them."

Tempting to throw the glass of wine in her face, but I was good.

I wonder if any of the places down in sarasota still serve chilean sea bass... :sagrin:

...then you get the sort like my mother in law, who ordered Orange Roughy last week out at dinner, just to piss me off. "Well, if they're going to be extinct, I might as well enjoy them."

Tempting to throw the glass of wine in her face, but I was good.

Have you told her that they only recently started calling them "orange roughies" instead of "slimeheads"?

And that before that they were called (seriously) 'diarrhea fish' (see 'Slimehead Revisited' section here (http://www.teara.govt.nz/EarthSeaAndSky/HarvestingTheSea/Seafood/3/mi))?

Well, I certainly hope she has the runs...

How about telling that she is eating a really old fish (don't mention that it is older than her - mother-in-laws are sensitive about age).

i hate seeing people do such things to animals and also then seeing others that are ignorant enough to not do research and then go out and buy an animal without any knowledge of their care. i have only bought one animal in my life without doing research prior, and that was a musk turtle that i knew the basic care for from previous turtle care experience while working at the zoo. the thing is, i already had the stuff ppl use for a setup, and as soon as i got home i got plenty of info from caresheets. i hate when people go get an animal and then go on a forum asking "how can i care for this animal and where can i get caresheets??" its not hard to google "[insert poor animal here] care sheet"! i am a member on several herp forums as well as tonmo, and kids come on with that post allll the time! the other day i came across a post by a 13yr old asking how to build an enclosure for a dwarf caiman! aghhhhhhh!

since Othello (my octo) is living in my marine bio/anatomy teacher's room, i constantly have to deal with the idiot cheerleaders who think itd be "cool" to have an octopus in their dorm. that is, until i tell them the prices on my equipment and the lifespan of a dwarf in a 10g... i absolutely love to show Othello to other students and to tell them about him, but not to show him off like "look at my kickass octopus, arent i cool?!" im into things like "look at my kickass octopus, he eats blahblahblah and octopi are very blahblahblah" and so on. teaching people about the animals i love is a true passion, and i strive for the best for them.

we need like a better version of the aspca that is about all animals and teaching the public how to properly care for any type of animal while providing those who posses such knowledge with a healthy animal. and the power to find and remove animals like that poor octo from that beast's care

I'm not sure if you've been following the "struck a nerve" (http://www.tonmo.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8956) thread. Summed up, guy has an octo in a 3 gallon and I explained why this shouldn't happen. I've been getting heat for expressing my feelings about it. Most recently is a guy who's bragging about all the Bimacs he's kept in 20g tanks for almost a year and a 55 gallon is a waste of space cause they hardly move around at all anyway. I want to explain with visuals (those Ollie pics with hand in the tank to show size reference) that if you get one that ends up getting big, you're gonna be in real trouble if you don't have a larger cycled tank ready to go. I dug up the 3 pics you posted on the alexfavery thread a while back showing how big they can get. May I have your permission to use those pics to show how big they really can get if you're not prepared for it?

Oh yeah, I took this portion of his reply rather personal"

"Tonmo i think personally offers nothing but people who like to say you need to spend thousands on octo tanks..and personally they NEVER offer any replies unless its something to grip about. Its like someone will post and it will get 2 replies in 6months. Yet if there is a thread to make a stink it will take off."

This is so wrong and the first person I thought of was you. I've known you to answer nearly every single Octopus care question practically the same day as it's posted. You also answer without any attitude no matter how many times you have to repeat yourself. I commend you on this. I just want to try and get them to see the light when it comes to the ethics of keeping an octopus not just alive.....but alive and as happy and comfortable as we can make them.

"Tonmo i think personally offers nothing but people who like to say you need to spend thousands on octo tanks..and personally they NEVER offer any replies unless its something to grip about. Its like someone will post and it will get 2 replies in 6months. Yet if there is a thread to make a stink it will take off."


"If cephs could read this, the H. lunulata would flash their blue spots, the S. bandensis would turn black and flare all of their tentacles, and the T. mimicus would be doing impersonations of lawyers."


I am currently raising dwarfs. I have this one named Cthulhu who is the largest of the brood, he is about half a centimeter in mantle length. I feel he is cramped in a 2 gallon tank he is in. Wow, to think that a nice sized O. Mercatoris at about 1.5 CM mantle length could be in a 3 gallon aquarium... just wow. Cthulhu makes a heck of a mess when he eats, I change his water 3 times a day... I don't know where to start, and I think if I did, I will not know when to finish.

Oh man, I feel quite ticked off right now...

I am just replying here to ensure that everyone is assured that we are good for at least two replies in less than six months... :razz:

Sounds a lot like trolling to me, because the comment is not based in fact -- it actually appears to be opposite of reality. If you browse through our forums you will see a very small number of zero-reply posts... so, without having gone to the forum or thread in question (and I honestly don't even recall which forum we're talking about here), I think someone is trying generate interest and spark controversy.

Anyhow, I'd prefer that we don't engage other forums in any kind of flame wars, because ultimately it will just be a distraction. I'm not sure we need try to convert anyone's thinking -- if they don't like TONMO.com or what we have to offer that is fine, and they can continue their hobby as they see fit.

That's my 2 cents anyhow... :twocents:

I'm not sure if you've been following the "struck a nerve" (http://www.tonmo.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8956) thread....
Thanks Phuntoon -- as you can see, I actually ended up deciding to merge your thread into this one, since it's really directly related. Would prefer to keep this discussion relatively contained!

Thanks Phuntoon -- as you can see, I actually ended up deciding to merge your thread into this one, since it's really directly related. Would prefer to keep this discussion relatively contained!

eye eye captain :arr: