O.K., most of you know my viewpoint on the keeping of cephalopods in captivity, and while it got me into trouble last year, I promise to keep this discussion civil.

How do you feel about the ethics of keeping captive cephalopods in an artificial environment?
Do you think that it brings about more knowledge than it causes harm, thereby making it justifiable?

I do keep, and have kept, captive cephalopods, and have never felt bad about it. The take of wild animals in a stable population has been proven time after time to not negatively harm the wild population.

But.

In the case of some of these animals, are we perhaps removing too many, too quickly in the supposed pursuit of "science" ?
I sometimes feel that we are on a slippery slope here, and while all of this excitement about bringing the wonders of the ceph world to the general public is cresting, are we at the same time dooming a lot of the animals we are supposed to be caring about to a nasty and untimely death?

Responsibility. That is what it boils down to.

Greg, I'm really glad you started this thread! There is a real delicate balance on this from my view, and I'm eager to put in my own 2 cents, which may indeed be its top value!

Firstly, as most of you know I have never kept a ceph, not even a tank (fresh or salt). I am definitely interested in one day owning a saltwater tank, and perhaps one day maybe even get a ceph if I feel strongly that I am up to the task.

I'll try to be real direct and to the point: I feel that cephs should only be kept by people who are 1) prioritizing the health of the ceph, 2) sharing learnings with "the community" (i.e., other ceph keepers, and I'd argue TONMO.com is the best place to do that), and 3) fully capable and responsible (as you say Greg) to do the job right. That involves months of research, patiently cycling a tank, and doing all research necessary to ensure the right conditions are met for the ceph.

I cringe at the thought of people jumping in to say "man octopuses are so cool -- I want one! Wait until the guys at school find out that I have an octopus as a pet!" Screw that. If you're going to keep a ceph, I say, you'd better journal it, study it, care for it as if you were the ceph yourself, and share your learnings and photos on TONMO.com for all to see and learn.

Responsibility, seconded!

This is a great topic.

I think all of us would agree there's nothing inherently immoral about keeping animals captive as long as reasonable measures are taken in good faith to give the animal a good enclosure and a healthy, fulfilling life. The world is fraught with examples of this being stretched, even at some public aquariums (and, good lord, most zoos).

I've had no fewer than four bimacs die prematurely in my care (or while being shipped to me). I know that my system is healthy and has successfully kept cephs in the past; but some part of me has wondered if I'm needlessly dooming creatures to their untimely end. From a rational perspective, however, if Zyan's brood of eggs were lain in nature it is likely only one or two individual fry would survive to maturity! What's more, it is not judged immoral by the State of California to catch these animals, asphyxiate and eat them. If we step outside our microcosm to view this in the greater context of how these animals live in nature and interact with man in other, generally agreed-upon ways; it doesn't matter too much if I am a mass-murderer of cephs. In fact this logic would suggest that keeping octopuses is a good thing because it allows dozens of animals to live longer, healthier and more fulfilling lives than they otherwise would--particularly being fed to stomatopods! :)

Most of us would fail to disagree with that sentiment. Thus, I think the subtext of Greg's post is a certain wonderpus that's out looking for the nu-cle-ar wessels in Ala-me-da. We all agree that buying these animals is immoral and we pretty much agree that trying to rescue them is too. I think most of us approve of Rich obtaining one for Dr. Roy to study in a scientific lab. I can't speak for Greg (and he clearly doesn't have any trouble speaking for himself :)), but I suspect he draws a line because Fontanelle isn't being kept for rigorous science or peer-reviewed publication. I think the question is subtley asked whether Rich, despite being a professional, experienced and mature ceph-keeper has succumb to the exotic and beautiful nature of the animal in the same way that many less-responsible, less-experienced aquarists have. I make no accusation or judgment, I merely think its the basic question that underlies the wonderpus topic, and knowledge of this question is why Rich seemed apprehensive of keeping the animal in the first place.

Well, I hope my wall-of-text is up to Monty's standard! ;) Thoughts?

You could compare this to the practice of keeping many animals in captivity for human enjoyment or for science. Unlike many exotic terrestrial animals, (which are probably off in their own ethics catagory) cephalopods and other marine critters are delicate and can be known to suffer a high mortality rate. So, really, it's not a 1 to 1 transfer rate of catch one in the wild, bring one into captivity. I dont know what it is... probably some of you have heard numbers thown out there.

Hmm so i would say, if you must keep a cephalopod, try your best to get a captive bred one or offer some support to anyone wishing to start a breeding program. But there aren't many options for those these days, right? I dont follow the octopus sources.

The TONMO community seems to to a good job of telling anyone who watched a tv show and decides they want something rare and flashy to leave them to the experts. People should minimize their impact by leaving the flashy flamboyants, mimics, blue rings to science. Heck, they'd do best to leave nautilus alone too. I'd certainly never want one of those. But I've never kept an octopus of my very own (just taken care of them).

At some point i'll revive my aquariums. Probably after next May. Then i am SO running out and buying uh... a serval! And uh.... a chinchilla. yeah. because i saw it on TV. :lol:

a cat is enough for me actually.

Interesting thoughts, and all worthy of consideration. This was not a thread about Thale's recent new addition at all, in fact, if there was any one of us capable of keeping an esoteric animal at all, it would be him. I do however, question the validity of trying to keep some animals in captivity.

If you buy an animal, even a human, for the reason that "If I don't buy it, someone else with less skill will", you are still telling the retailer that he made a profit. Then, the wholesaler will order more to make a profit, and the shipper will order even more from the collector.

About 60% of the imported animals die in transit. An additional 20-30% die after acclimation.


1 live octopus= about 20 dead octopus.

The only way to stop the collection is to make them non-desirable to the consumer. We have to stop pretending we live in Victorian England, where the world is our oyster, and everything is there for the taking.

What better than a brightly colored fish on a billboard... a brightly colored octopus. Seems whether someone buys it or not the sign (or a live octopus in the window) will still attract someone to the store.

How do you feel about the ethics of keeping captive cephalopods in an artificial environment?
Do you think that it brings about more knowledge than it causes harm, thereby making it justifiable?

In the vast amount of cases, both ceph and other marine aquaria, I don't think it has anything to do with bringing about knowledge, I think its about people getting pleasure from keeping the animals. Is that justifiable? That seems up to the individual.

In the case of some of these animals, are we perhaps removing too many, too quickly in the supposed pursuit of "science" ?

Perhaps. My understanding of the upswing in 'zebra' sales in my area is that it was at least partially driven by the scientific community. I have been told by local wholesalers and LFS that researchers were asking for the 'zebras' so when they see/saw them on lists they get/got ordered and were actively collected. This has led to them ordering any ceph as well.
It seems a shame, but my understanding is that obtaining animals commercially is far easier and less expensive than going through 'science channels'. More science funding!
I am not actively pursuing flamboyants because in the states there currently isn't a market, and I don't want to be the one that starts it.


I sometimes feel that we are on a slippery slope here, and while all of this excitement about bringing the wonders of the ceph world to the general public is cresting, are we at the same time dooming a lot of the animals we are supposed to be caring about to a nasty and untimely death?

Responsibility. That is what it boils down to.

It isn't just cephs, but the entire Marine Ornamental industry/hobby. There is an incredible amount of death at all levels of the industry/hobby (though I think getting an accurate percentage is impossible) and I think that being involved in any way at all helps support that death. I wouldn't be all the surprised to find myself getting out of it completely at some point.
I think the responsible thing to do would be to spend time and effort changing the industry, because it isn't going to change itself. I have started to create an NPO, but don't know if I have the stomach for it.
My experience at the collector/exporter level and at the wholesale/retail level has left me feeling like Sisyphus.

1 live octopus= about 20 dead octopus.


yes, that's the number i was getting at. and it's lot higher than I thought it would be!

About 60% of the imported animals die in transit. An additional 20-30% die after acclimation.

1 live octopus= about 20 dead octopus.

Greg -- what can we do to improve this stat? I don't believe we (as a community) have done enough to lift the hood on this process -- if anyone would be well-positioned to analyze the process and suggest improvements it would be us. We could even lobby via the proper channels to get some regulations in place. A lofty goal for sure, but if not us, who?

Can someone walk me through the ways in which an octopus gets into an LFS? And highlight what we'd consider to be the "preferred" method? Might make a good sticky note or article.

Interesting thoughts, and all worthy of consideration. This was not a thread about Thale's recent new addition at all, in fact, if there was any one of us capable of keeping an esoteric animal at all, it would be him.

Thanks. That's nice and a little scary. :grin:
FWIW, I didn't at all see this as being about my recent addition. This topic is incredibly interesting to me, and I am glad you started it. In the reefing world, most people don't want any part of this discussion.

I do however, question the validity of trying to keep some animals in captivity.

Me too. Unsustainable collection being the biggest fear.

If you buy an animal, even a human, for the reason that "If I don't buy it, someone else with less skill will", you are still telling the retailer that he made a profit. Then, the wholesaler will order more to make a profit, and the shipper will order even more from the collector.

Absolutely. At the same time, I don't think individuals boycotting animals makes much of a difference once the the demand or perceived demand is there. Once the train stops it keeps feeding itself, and, sadly, at that point I think legislation is the only thing that can make a difference.

About 60% of the imported animals die in transit. An additional 20-30% die after acclimation.

1 live octopus= about 20 dead octopus.

That seems high to me. I don't think the industry could stay in business at a 90% DOA/DAA rate, or even a 50% DOA/DAA RATE. None the less, the amount of death can be staggering.

The only way to stop the collection is to make them non-desirable to the consumer. We have to stop pretending we live in Victorian England, where the world is our oyster, and everything is there for the taking.

Absolutely. Since cephs are hard to breed, I think high expense can make them undesirable because end users aren't thinking they can jump on the gravy train by selling offspring.

Greg -- what can we do to improve this stat? I don't believe we (as a community) have done enough to lift the hood on this process -- if anyone would be well-positioned to analyze the process and suggest improvements it would be us. We could even lobby via the proper channels to get some regulations in place. A lofty goal for sure, but if not us, who?

This is a massive undertaking and involves international law and the reigning in of a system that hasn't really changed for 30 years. Organizations like the Marine Aquarium Council (MAC) are making efforts, but so far are still in their infancy. For more information, browse the Industry Behind the Hobby forum at www.reefs.org .

Most of the improvements to make a difference are known, but cost money. At the present, may feel the cost is not worth it. Grr.


Can someone walk me through the ways in which an octopus gets into an LFS? And highlight what we'd consider to be the "preferred" method? Might make a good sticky note or article.

The octopus is caught by a collector, and then transferred to a holding facility. In some places the holding facility is close, in others it is very far away. Depending on where the collection is being done, the animals is packed on site for export, or has to make another trip to the exporters.
Once bagged and packed, the animal is then delivered to the airport and flow to the importer. This can take anywhere from 8 -60 hours depending on the location of the exporter and the importer.
In the US, the animals being imported have to clear customs and inspection by Fish and Wildlife. Once that is done, the animals are driven to the wholesalers, when they are tanked. Local stores browse the wholesaler (a fish store for fish stores) and the animals are bagged and driven to the store. Non local stores place orders and the animal is shipped out in the same manner as it was for export, but the flight times are shorter.

In the case of cephs, improvements include smart collecting (not hurting the animal) and shipping with lots and lots of water. Both end up costing money.

I think the saddest thing is that marine ornamentals is a volume industry, which doesn't work out for the living things that make up the volume.

Here is a link to a video I did for a Tongan collection station that was trying to do things the right way. It may shed some light on the process. When I get around to it, I will add the footage of packing and receiving shipments and make it more of a documentary than a promotional piece.
http://stickycricket.com/movies/tonga_promo.html

Massive and rambling post - apologies in advance!!

To my mind there are 2 related issues of ethics here - firstly, an ethical responsibility of the 'collection-impact' of the captured animal, regarding its right to adequate and compensatory care, and secondly, a responsibility to the remaining wild population, regarding the impact of collection on the wider ecology of the system whence the collected individual came. Of course they are interrelated, but I think some different issues affect each of these.

Let me go on a bit here: For the captured individual, there must be some compensation for loss-of-liberty (if I can anthropomorphise 'rights'). The use of the animal to me is not particualy relevant to this factor - an animal in a domestic aquarium providing entertainment value to teenagers or one in research institution require the same things - a clean environment, stimulation that compensates for tank-boredom, adequate care and maintenance, and some sort of right to minimised pain and suffering. These needs apply irrespective of the species involved and the purpose of the animals' captivity.

The second issue is the ethics of collection that apply to the source population of the animals. This to me is a far more tangled issue, and is highly dependent on the species of animals involved - collection of adults is more costly to k-selected (long-lived, delayed repro) animals like nautiliuses, particularly when combined with limited knowledge of population ecology. R-selected species (short-lived, single repoduction event) like many octo species, are more vulnerable to juvenile and egg mortality, but with short-lived species obviously the younger individuals are most desirable to collectors.

The problem is compounded by the need for additional knowledge of such poorly understood populations - how can we learn to conserve and understand marine species without some form of ex-situ research, while avoiding over-exploitation? Of course, not all cephs are endangered, but we know so little about many of them that trying to learn more about them can cause damage in and of itself. This is a difficult issue and I don't have any really good answers to it.

Since I work with Nautiluses (which are probably 'threatened' or 'vulnerable', at least in some areas), I butt up against these issues quite alot, either when I'm talking about my research to other scientists, or when I start feeling guilty about keeping my animals. I'm not sure how I feel about it all, hence the rather rambling nature of this post!!

So I do my best to give my animals the best care I can, and make sure every single experiment we do is designed with a primary objective of minimising the number of individuals we need to use. On the broader scale, I buy my guys from an excellent vendor with a supply-chain I know, and do my best to share everything I have learnt about Nautiluses with anyone who cares to listen...I think if most people who keep cephs do similarly, everybody wins.

Although I'm still not sure.... Great discussion thread, by the way! I am new here and have learnt lots from visiting.

Thanks Thales - very helpful and thanks for the resources. I am up for doing something in this space on behalf of the community; I'll dig in a bit. My bottom line is that I do support keeping of cephs in a responsible manner. I believe in the long run the more we can understand these creatures, the better. Keeping them a "mystery" doesn't jibe with my perception of we humans being a good, ambitious species eager to understand as much as possible about the world we live in and the creatures we co-exist with, with the general intent of making things better. So it seems appropriate that we examine the process by which folks obtain these cephs, and improve on that first to make sure it's humane and efficient.

i always come back to the inspiring quote by the senegal poet baba dioum- "In the end, we conserve only what we love. We love only what we understand. We will understand only what we are taught." please continue to teach everyone you can everything you know about octopuses. that is my religion. i try to tell everybody about these critters in the hope that we can save them. by owning them and learning about their needs and sharing that knowledge, well... that is the mission of tonmo. and of course, it all starts with responsibility. every day people and friends come by to see the octopuses, none of them wants to keep them- it is a big undertaking. most of the commercial websites mention that octos are for experts only, but first hand knowledge is indispensible. fortunately hobbyists often make valuable contributions to the understanding of animals like these as captive husbandry issues are unraveled. somebody mentioned the case of sps corals that only afew years ago were thought impossible to maintain now are easily captive aquacutured...hopefully this will take the pressure off the native ecosystems. i'm going to do the right thing and remain optimistic. as winston churchill said- "i am a optimist. it does not seem too much use being anything else." zyan

Greg -- what can we do to improve this stat? I don't believe we (as a community) have done enough to lift the hood on this process -- if anyone would be well-positioned to analyze the process and suggest improvements it would be us. We could even lobby via the proper channels to get some regulations in place. A lofty goal for sure, but if not us, who?

Can someone walk me through the ways in which an octopus gets into an LFS? And highlight what we'd consider to be the "preferred" method? Might make a good sticky note or article.

From a conservation point of view, I would like to see an attempt to estimate some annual stats on how many individuals are removed from given areas for the aquarium trade. Wooo that would be an undertaking.

Seems like that would be a logical first step in judging the impact of the aquarium trade and what sort of change we should try to enact.

Thanks Thales - very helpful and thanks for the resources. I am up for doing something in this space on behalf of the community; I'll dig in a bit. My bottom line is that I do support keeping of cephs in a responsible manner. I believe in the long run the more we can understand these creatures, the better. Keeping them a "mystery" doesn't jibe with my perception of we humans being a good, ambitious species eager to understand as much as possible about the world we live in and the creatures we co-exist with, with the general intent of making things better. So it seems appropriate that we examine the process by which folks obtain these cephs, and improve on that first to make sure it's humane and efficient.


An important thing to remember is that there are lots and lots of different collection stations and they are often not connected to other stations. So, each station needs to be 'educated' about best practices. The cephs that came in last week were packed very well, and I think the ceph mortality (4 of 10 cuttles DOA, 1 more DAA, and 1 'common' occy out of 6 and no 'zebras' out of 2) was because the shipment was delayed - a 30-40 hour trip turned into a 60 hour trip.
Some of the smaller collecting stations are figuring out if they take better care of the animals, they get more repeat business.

Thales, do you know any stats on how long it takes to clear customs and fish and wildlife? How many hours that adds to the packing, shipping etc. time?

Let me comment as someone who formally studies octopus and who has photographed Wunderpus in its natural habitat and who has purchased two from wholesalers. Members of my lab have also photographed and filmed the mimic in Indonesia although the only ones I have seen were in the trade. If I want to study the behavior and life history of these species, I have to have a permit from the host country. They are very difficult to obtain and it can take months or even years to do so. Even if I have a research permit, if I want to bring the animals back to the lab in Berkeley, I would need an export permit (again difficult to obtain) and be able to figure out a way to transport them. (Not being able to carry them on board is causing serious problems for those of us who relied on using this method to safely transport live specimens.) The bottom line is if I could get a permit (currently unlikeley), it would cost me in excess of $4,000 (conservative estimate) to travel to Indonesia, obtain the services of a dive boat, pay for the expenses of an Indonesian colleague to work with me (probably necessary as part of the permitting process), and transport the animal back to the U.S. Even if I could obtain a permit to collect 4 (unlikely), that puts them at over $1,000 each and it is unlikely that they would all make it back alive. Very few biologists are going to be collecting and bringing back live zebra octopus.

Also, there is very little to be gained studying the behavior of these species in a laboratory or aquarium setting. The animals are stressed, the habitat is not at all similar to that in which they live, it is difficult to obtain two to obsever interactions, etc. While there are several species of octopus that we can and do study in the lab, zebras are not on that list. In my opinion, most useful behavioral information can only be obtained in the field. (The only exception is that we have learned a bit about their brooding behavior and early paralarvae which would have been difficult in the field. And even here, once it has been observed and recorded, there is little need to repeat the observations.)

So why did I purchase two from wholesalers? This was a few years ago when we did not have information on reproductive behavior and I was hoping to see brooding. Also there were very few specimens in the hands of museums, the species were still to be described, and we needed fresh (non-formalin) material for molecular studies to determine their relationship to other octopus. (This still has not been properly worked out.)

Once these octopus have been collected and removed from their home environment, they have zero fitness - they are evolutionarily dead. That makes it easy for many people to rationalize buying them because they will die anyway and won't contribute to their population. The sad fact is that if we pay a high price for them and allow the collectors, wholesalers, and store owners to make a profit on them, they will continue to be collected. When I purchased the two animals, at the time I made it clear that I did not want any more ordered for me. I will no long obtain these animals in the name of science. I have preserved specimens which have been deposited in museums and I have their DNA. There is nothing else I want them for in Berkeley and I certainly hope that in the future there are still zebras in Indonesia that I can properly study in the field. That is where they belong and that is where we can learn the most from them.

Roy

Thales, do you know any stats on how long it takes to clear customs and fish and wildlife? How many hours that adds to the packing, shipping etc. time?

All of that depends on the how long before the flight the local airport wants the shipment, and how long it takes the wildlife and and customs to clear the shipment. Sometimes customs and fish and game are backed up and it can take hours and hours. Usually, it adds an hour or two.

I agree with Robyn that it's important to consider the ethics separately for the cases of the individual animals and the wild population as a whole. Much of TONMO's hobbyist advice is aimed at encouraging ceph-keepers to be as well-educated and responsible for the well-being of their pets, and I think, unless we take the stand that they shouldn't be kept at all, that's something we're doing quite well.

It seems like the other case, the impact of collection on the wild population, is a whole other kettle of fish, so to speak. There are a lot of components to this being tossed out in this discussion, ranging from economics to transportation logistics to collection priorities to importing to regulation.... ultimately, these are probably the main areas in which we could affect change somehow, although how is not clear.

Robyn touched on something that seems key, though: the impact that collection has on the wild population depends heavily on the life cycle of the animal. It also, of course, depends on a lot of factors in the wild, such as its habitat and how easy it is for collectors to capture a large fraction of the population. Some animals are so easy to collect, because their natural defenses are not at all well suited to avoiding human assault, that they can be over-collected with ease-- I put seahorses in this category, since their main defenses are to hide among plants and to have armor and generally not be a good meal, but neither of these protect against major netting efforts. (When they're to be sold dried as a medicinal product, it's even easier to collect them).

In the case of cephs, it's rather hard to assess the impact of collection on the adult population. Coleoids seems to generally share the reproductive strategy of producing very large clutches of eggs and (para)larvae, but to have relatively little chance of each baby reaching sexual maturity and reproducing. I'm not sure how to assign even back-of-the-envelope numbers to this: it means that the population can theoretically bounce back rapidly from a small population to a large one, particularly since they have a short lifetime to reproductive age. However, it also means that removing adults or near-adults from the breeding population can have a very rapid impact on the reproductive capacity of the whole species, and also narrows the gene pool. One thing I'm pretty sure it means is that collection of hatchlings is much less likely to have an impact on the wild population than collection of adults, since the survival rate for a hatchling is very low anyway... it also arguably(?) offsets the cruelty of pulling the animal from its natural environment when its natural environment is full of nasty hazards, so it would give it more of a chance at a long and non-traumatic life.

I don't know that it's at all practical to somehow encourage collectors to collect paralarvae instead of adults, and of course they'd have to be raised for a while before sale, but I bet they're easier to ship.

In a completely tangential thought, I wonder if this reproductive strategy was part of why Coleoids survived mass extinctions that wiped out all other ceph populations, in that a few octopus-ancestors that had some particular mutation that helped handle the environmental conditions leading to the mass extinction could have expanded to fill niches left by other animals that weren't able to handle the changes.

Anyway, I know Eric Hochberg advised the California Fish & Game regulators to forbid bimac collection for the hobby trade because he believed that it would be easy for heavy collection to wipe out the breeding population of bimacs in the wild. I infer, at least, that a lot of you with experience in this area are concerned about that in the case of the "zebras" as well. Of course, this also ties into the discussion elsewhere about how overfishing of terminal-spawning squids is likely to impact their populations differently than overfishing of animals that have different reproductive strategies and timelines.

I've noticed, though, that several of the other animals that have been brought up recently (particularly Tasmanian Tigers and Hog Island Boas) seem like they have very different life and reproductive cycles than the cephs... Fish are closer in some ways, but I don't know enough about their details. Assessing how the animal's actual lifecycle will interact with various pressures, whether they be overfishing/overcollection, habitat destruction, water temperature changes, invasive species, or any of a number of other things is a very complicated problem. Of course, it's generally better to err on the side of caution, since it's not always easy to tell what impact these things are having on a population until it's an irreversible problem, but it seems worthwhile to look for as many answers as possible along the way, lest the conservation strategy turn out to be a case of "the cure is worse than the disease," or just putting a lot of effort into addressing one part of the problem, when the highest impact on the species' survival might be in some other area.

:twocents: from me, is that sufficient to maintain my reputation for "walls of text," Dan? (I considered trying out e e cummings formatting for this post, but old habits die hard)

is that sufficient to maintain my reputation for "walls of text," Dan?

Once again you trumped my effort. A mere two paragraphs takes me a half hour: you could partition Germany in that time :)

The two examples I mentioned are in no way different...they are mirrors of what we can see in regards to the wild importation of cephalopods.

There is NO reason to import some species, other than as "crank" items.

We don't have even a modicum of experience with bimacs so far, and yet, the new arrivals are being snatched up as fast as they arrive. Two importers in town here are actively looking for more wonderpuss to fill orders that they have.

Are you seriously tryiing to tell me that there is no impact from this? Where does this end? Haven't you listened to Dr. O'Shea? Haven't you watched the news?

People, if you really care for cephs, (or any living animal for that matter) we have got to wake up and smell the coffee.


There is nothing wrong with collecting from a sustainable population...to a point. Thales is completely correct that legislation is the key to this. Problem= people don't want to hear it.

We don't want to hear that you won't be able to eat fish in 2040. Your children will never have a tuna fish sandwich that is safe to eat, even if tuna still exist.

Are we honestly justifiable in keeping cephs in captivity?

Yes, I believe we are.

They may well become the foodstuffs of tomorrow, with a fast reproduction rate and quick life cycle. (personally, can't stand the taste...would rather eat two legged mutton)

But, you have to question whether or not it is responsible to keep them in captivity, especially those of unknown population amounts.

Had a depressing conversation with an animal wholesaler/importer yesterday...it sounds like wild ceph imports are going to reach an all-time high this year, the demand keeps on growing and growing, but the lack of education on the part of the purchasers is disturbing.

Be sure to tell people at your lfs about Tonmo, with Thales, Colin, Nancy, and Carol on board, at least the new stuff will have a chance at life, and maybe we can start to puzzle out some of the gaps we are missing in octopus care.

There's no reason to import any octopus, really. From mercatoris to briareus to bimacs pretty much any reasonable pet octo is available domestically. Compare the experiences with these animals versus imported "brown" and "bali" octopuses! The only import that anyone seems to have much luck with is A. aculeatus.

Even cuttlefish don't need much in the way of imports--Rich and Jennifer have demonstrated that you can get a whole lot of babies from a handful of imported eggs.

I work for an aquarium service company with a retail store in New England--when they first found out about my ceph fetish I was told that I was the only customer they had who they would suggest an octopus for, because I'm one of the only ones who would give it daily attention. Its not the panacea, but there is a lot of responsibility at the retail-end not to sell or order anything the customer asks for.

Dan

Greg, good point. I know we want to provide a TONMO.com flyer for LFS's to give to their ceph-buying customers, kind of like, "here, take this flyer, visit this site to give and get support and guidance" -- I will try to post this soon, for anyone who can help spread the word.

Quoting Monty, from the wall of text:

I'm not sure how to assign even back-of-the-envelope numbers to this: it means that the population can theoretically bounce back rapidly from a small population to a large one, particularly since they have a short lifetime to reproductive age. However, it also means that removing adults or near-adults from the breeding population can have a very rapid impact on the reproductive capacity of the whole species, and also narrows the gene pool. One thing I'm pretty sure it means is that collection of hatchlings is much less likely to have an impact on the wild population than collection of adults, since the survival rate for a hatchling is very low anyway..

There is an emerging branch of mathematical ecology attempting to answer exactly these sorts of questions. From memory I think its called elasticity analyses. Basically all the population parametres (hatching success, mortaility in each year or each month, probability of surviving to reproductive age, probability of reproducing given survival to maturity etc.) are plugged into a model and it outputs those factors that will have the greatest impact on survival and population growth. The downside is that they require at least ball-park knowledge of each parametre, something which I imagine is lacking for many cephs.

However I think there are some papers out there comparing r and k selection strategies (in fish, I suspect) and elasticities of adult versus juvenile mortality. Although there's no substitute for knowledge of the species at hand, we can make some good guesses using data for animals with similar life histories.

I think somewhere there is an excellent example analysis on whales (extreme k-selected), that shows a population crash 20-30 years after high juvenile mortality. Slightly OT, but interesting stuff. (if you're a massive nerd like me, that is...)

Being an experienced and responsible Ceph owner for many years, I feel I want to "rescue" animals I see for sale cause I know with me they have a fighting chance of living a good life in captivity. I think that is an awesome idea educating your LFS about Tonmo and directing future ceph owners here for guidance.

Having a TONMO.com brochure or flyer is a good idea. I've even thought of business card with the TONMO name and website address on it that could be given to ceph purchasers. If material like this was printable at home, we could print out copies and distribute them locally. Might give us a chance to talk with the LFS owner, too.

Even when given our website address, not all octo purchasers bother to log on, unfortunately.

Greg, what species are they importing, and from which areas?

I know of two LFSs in the Dallas area that want to move in the direction of the rare and exotic (fish and other inverts, as well as cephs), so this might be a trend.

Nancy

I think a flyer is a good idea, I think it would be even better with a bunch of facts on it. I also think trying to make relationships with the online saltwater communities might be a good idea - many aren't really going to want to send people to TONMO, but its worth a shot. I am an admin on reefs.dot org, and could prolly get a ceph forum started with a post with a link to tonmo and I think it would be easier to get with a reciprocal link and reciprocal forum.
Also, connecting with the online sellers of cephs and having them put a link to TONMO with there cephs for sale might be good too.

The downside is that most stores or sites that are selling cephs are not going to want to be connected to any site that says 'don't by a ceph' because they want to sell cephs. Wonderpus gets even stickier - Atlantis isn't going to want to link to us because they sell most of the wunderpus in this area.



Nancy - the cephs are mostly coming from indo, but they are coming from just about any place that has cephs.

I agree...a pamphlet of some sort would be great.

That still skirts the issue of "is this ethical" ? Yes, reality dictates that we are going to see an upsurge in cephalopods in captivity, especially when TFH hits the shelves. How do we address this?


Thales, with the other thread being closed down by Colin, I will try to address your concerns on this one.

"In your experience, why did people stop buying the boas? Was it because the market was flooded, because people wanted to protect the wild populations, or for some other reason or reasons?"

Animals are only sold when they bring a profit to the importer/wholesaler.

In the case of the Hogg Isle boas, the market was flooded quickly, and the wild population decimated. Protecting the wild populations would mean just that Protecting The Wild Populations...this can not be done by captive breeding. It needs to be done at the field level, unfortunately, too late for those pretty little snakes.
I would like to see it not happen to the octopus species.

Just for information -

The closed thread can be found here...

http://www.tonmo.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7838

Colin

"In your experience, why did people stop buying the boas? Was it because the market was flooded, because people wanted to protect the wild populations, or for some other reason or reasons?"

Animals are only sold when they bring a profit to the importer/wholesaler.

In the case of the Hogg Isle boas, the market was flooded quickly, and the wild population decimated. Protecting the wild populations would mean just that Protecting The Wild Populations...this can not be done by captive breeding. It needs to be done at the field level, unfortunately, too late for those pretty little snakes.
I would like to see it not happen to the octopus species.


Thanks Greg.
I thought you making a connection of the end of collection of the Hog Isle Boa with boycotting a 'zebras' to end their collection collection, but since the boas dropped in price because of market saturation, it looks like I misunderstood.

The boas and the Galaxy rasbora are examples of what might/prolly will happen with the 'zebras'. I agree, and am saddened by the prospect. International action is needed on a level that overwhelms my mind. Its taken 20-30 years to start to see a positive trend away from collection of fish with cyanide, so I am not sure what to do here. Perhaps raising money to fund field research would be a good place to start.

That, Sir, is a great idea. I wonder if we could do a fund drive here on Tonmo for some field research? It would be great to meld the keeping of cephs in captivity and the exploration of the wild 'pods into one whole ball of wax.

Besides, I would like to see a photo of you with a zebra octopus on your head. :)

Besides, I would like to see a photo of you with a zebra octopus on your head. :)

Just as long as its not about to be eaten!

Just as long as its not about to be eaten!

They taste like Orange Roughy.

They taste like Orange Roughy.

How would you know? Hmmmm?

O'Shea sent me some.

There is an emerging branch of mathematical ecology attempting to answer exactly these sorts of questions. From memory I think its called elasticity analyses.

I'd be quite interested in references and recommendations for particular papers... I'm hoping to get some time to do a google scholar search for this stuff, but if you have some specific recommendations, that's also good, particularly if you know some that are good for a "well-read intellectual, but ignorant computer scientists who hasn't taken too much hardcore biology and had to pick up a lot of terminology on the street" level reader like myself.

This also seems like the sort of thing that Fugisawas Sake would like, but he hasn't been around much lately.

I should also clarify a bit: I didn't in any way mean to criticize the conclusion that "zebras" shouldn't be collected and imported, certainly not in the overzealous, irresponsible, and unregulated (and greed-driven) manner that people are describing. I just am wary of over-extrapolating the details, but it's pretty damn clear that the current practices are unethical, unacceptable, and unreasonable.

My only intended point is that collecting endangered animals is not a "one-size fits all" problem, and it's the sort of thing where frequently there is a great deal of complexity, so to try to address it sometimes requires a lot of open-minded-cynicism, so to speak. But it's clear that the "zebras" were doing a lot better before a bunch of jerks started to spray cyanide at them to make a quick fortune selling them to rich idiots in American LFS stores, so stopping that seems like a great idea. My comments are mostly in the theoretical domain of "will they bounce back" and "in what ways is this similar to or different from other examples." I understand that Greg sees a lot of similarities between them and other "exotic pet" animals, and certainly in terms of the "human side" of the behavioral and economic examples, I agree, but in terms of reproduction, ecology, and whatnot, I think it's intellectual thin ice to say that a ceph that probably breeds a large brood about once a year is going to respond to pressures in a way similar to boas or tasmanian tigers. However, there's no doubt that if these collectors remove a large fraction of the wild population, it will be an unacceptably horrible thing for the population, so it's the details, not the big picture, that I'm wanting to get into.

Interestingly the sale of cephs is not common in NZ. I can honestly say I have never seen one for sale in any pet store (or aquarium store) I have been in. I confess I actively discourage visitors to the aquarium who ask about keeping them, this is mainly because they would have to catch their own and it is difficult to distiguish between midgets which could conceivably be kept in a home aquarium and a juvenile common (which gets HUGE). Our aim as a public aquarium is to enthuse people about the marine environment and it's inhabitants (in situ!) and to raise their awareness about some of the issues surrounding it......this is why we hold marine animals (and go through an extremely painful ethics approval process every year :roll: ). We do of course provide information and help to home aquarists if they call with a problem and we take in and nurse (or euthanise :cry:) marine animals brought in by the public (we are a bird rescue centre in the event of oil spill). We also run aquarium technology classes.

BTW don't get me started on orange roughy..........if ever there was a fish not suited to commercial exploitation thats it!!!!

J

A few ramblings on the problems related to the importation of “zebra” octopus.

________________________________________
Wunderpus burrows in muck in the field, but I don't know of anyone who has successfully recreated a substrate in an aquarium that is conducive to burrowing by this species. My experience is that they will hide behind objects or occasionally go into a piece of pvc, but they do not excavate burrows as they would be in the wild. I am not an octopus shrink, but my experience with various species of octopus in the wild and in captivity tells me that these animals are stressed. Wunderpus in the wild have a very prescribed activity period emerging about one to two crep periods for a few minutes after sunset and again for a short period before dawn. When on the surface, they are voracious predators foraging over the bottom traveling several feet collecting small crabs and other crustaceans before retreating to their burrows. In captivity, this strict activity pattern seems to break down - again a sign that the animals are not behaving normally.

Many cuttles produce large eggs that develop into demersal juveniles that can be reared. I am totally in favor of working with these animals to develop efficient and effective culture techniques. How many octopus with small eggs that develop into paralavrae have been reared? I know of one and that was accomplished expending Herculean effort. It is not realistic to think that Wunderpus or the mimic are going to be cultured using ordinary technology that is available to even the most sophisticated aquarist.

As for the refrain that we don't know much about these animals in the wild and that this some how justifies continuing to support their collection and sale in the trade, I would say that we already know enough to be concerned.

How was it that these animals were only recognized two decades ago? Why is it that there were almost none of these animals in museum collections taken from habitats where these animals are found? How is it that some of the best dive guides in the world go for months without spotting a single animal? Why is it that we know basically nothing about the biology of their larvae in the plankton or of their development until they reach adult status? Doesn't it make sense that an apparently rare species restricted to a muck habitat might be in trouble given that these same environments are some the most impacted by anthropogenic forces? And why is it that we are talking about species that are so rare and desirable that they are routinely selling for $400 each even though the buyers probably (or should) know that they will survive for at most a few months. One would think than if these animals were not rare, they would be flooding the market.

What useful information are we going to gain from keeping a Wunderpus in a glass box that is too small to allow it to behave in a species typical manner and on a substrate that prevents it from withdrawing from the world? Every photograph that can be taken has probably already been taken in the wild – or could be. Formal controlled studies of the stimuli that elicit mimcry don’t mean much in a stressed animal and for that matter, I’m not aware of reports that these animals exhibit a normal range of mimicry in captivity. There is some information that might be gained on venom (we tried) and other information available from preserved specimens (ovarian development, taxonomic characters, etc.) I also mentioned in an earlier posting that there was some molecular data that might be gained that could elucidate phylogenetic relationships. However, without good information on the exact origin of the specimen, the value of such data is limited. Perhaps more relevant, the vast majority of animals imported are being allowed to rot in their tank or go down the toilet and contribute nothing to our knowledge of these species.

I'm sorry, but I just cannot accept the argument that because we don't have detailed information on these animals in the field that this some how justifies promoting the importation of as many as the collectors can supply.

Those of you who have read my comments on this and other forums know that I do not buy into arguments that fall into the category of "ethics". I grew up on a farm, was an avid hunter, eat meat (including cephalopods), and have destroyed my share of habitat studying stomatopods and octopus. What I care about is the preservation of marine habitats and the biodiversity they support. When there are legitimate lines of scientific study to be pursued, I support it whether it be in the field or aquarium. Zebras are just one small, but very visible piece of the problems being created by the wholesale importation of exotic species for entertainment.

Do I have an answer. No, except that protection can only come through legislation and enforcement. When I was involved in the discovery of the Indonesian coelacanth 10 years ago, we were extremely concerned that word of the discovery would leak out and that Manado would be over-run by public aquarium collectors hoping to exhibit a specimen and by individuals hoping to sell coelacanth parts as “medicines”. It took months to put in place protective measures to ensure that this species would have CITES protection, that the local fishermen understood and supported a ban on collection, and that the Indonesian government would protect them. Only when all this was in place, was the announcement of the discovery made and even then it was difficult to hold the line.

Zebra octopus are not coelacanths that already enjoyed international protection, but they do have many unusual and appealing features that might allow them to be promoted as a poster species for the protection of marine habitats. This is where I would like to see our efforts placed.

Roy

Monty, here's an excellent article co-authored by Hal Caswell, who has published a large number of similarly excellent papers:

Ecology: Vol. 81, No. 3, pp. 654–665. LIFE HISTORIES AND ELASTICITY PATTERNS: PERTURBATION ANALYSIS FOR SPECIES WITH MINIMAL DEMOGRAPHIC DATA (2000)
Selina S. Heppell,a Hal Caswell,b and Larry B. Crowderc

Here's a piece of the abstract: I hope its ok to post this here!

Elasticity analysis is a useful tool in conservation biology. The relative impacts of proportional changes in fertility, juvenile survival, and adult survival on asymptotic population growth λ (where ln(λ) = r, the intrinsic rate of increase) are determined by vital rates (survival, growth, and fertility), which also define the life history characteristics of a species or population. Because we do not have good demographic information for most threatened populations, it is useful to categorize species according to their life history characteristics and related elasticity patterns. To do this, we compared the elasticity patterns generated by the life tables of 50 mammal populations. In age-classified models, the sum of the fertility elasticities and the survival elasticity for each juvenile age-class are equal; thus, age at maturity has a large impact on the contribution of juvenile survival to λ. Mammals that mature early and have large litters (“fast” mammals, such as rodents and smaller carnivores) also generally have short lifespans; these populations had relatively high fertility elasticities and lower adult survival elasticities. “Slow” mammals (those that mature late), having few offspring and higher adult survival rates (such as ungulates and marine mammals), had much lower fertility elasticities and high adult or juvenile survival elasticities. Although certain life history characteristics are phylogenetically constrained, we found that elasticity patterns within an order or family can be quite diverse, while similar elasticity patterns can occur in distantly related taxa.

I might have the full text somewhere - PM me if you want the pdf....

I have seen several mentions of 'zebras' being collected with cyanide. Is this speculation or is there evidence it is actually happening?

Not likely. It would be a fairly inefficient technique unless you knew where the burrow was. Spreading cyanide over hectares of muck isn't going to yield much. Bleach is used sometimes to drive animals out of the sand, but these guys are fairly easy to catch if you see them out.

Roy

I agree Roy. I would be surprised if juice was used for these guys, and was wondering if the idea it was was internetfact or if someone actually knew it happened.

The most common method for using chemicals to collect octopus is usually urea or uric acid. Smelly, but efficient.

Monty, here's an excellent article co-authored by Hal Caswell

Got it! Thanks! I only read a bit of it so far, but it looks good...

- M

According to my source who is an importer, cyanide use is still rife in certain areas. However, perhaps it is a misnomer and that squirting anything down the holes to flush out beasties is getting called that? That's my best guess...

I let this thread brew for a while before I said anything, I bounced it off some other people... thanks :)

There are a lot of great points here and it is the necessary evil. This is exactly the kind of stuff we should be examining here and exactly the sort of stuff that a fledgling side of home aquaculture needs to address.
I haven’t been very active on the TONMO.com forums for a while now. Why? Quite simply because I don't keep cephalopods anymore.
As someone who has a purpose built heated shed with more than forty aquariums, surely at least one tank could have an octopus or cuttlefish? The answer is no.

I bought my last octopus in 2003 and in 2005 I took 6 baby Sepia bandensis which were hatched from eggs by a fellow TONMO.com member.
In 2003 I tried to order two Octopus vulgaris through the local fish importer, at which I was an employee of at the time. The exporter actually sent two blue rings instead! That pretty much was the last straw.

During my main flow of keeping octopuses I probably ordered somewhere in the region of 30 over 3 years. A dozen arrived DOA. Some were full grown dwarves and died within a couple of weeks. Others lived a few months. I also had attempts at rearing baby octopuses from gravid females who laid eggs in my tanks.
Point is, now I DON'T think it’s worth it and would rather that the octopuses stayed in the sea. I am not taking any moral high ground here because I still keep lots and lots of tropical fish, probably in the region of 100 species or more. Some of which are very rare in the trade. BUT at least I am breeding these fish and it's somewhere in the region of 3 or 4 new species per month.

To clarify, I can still buy fish at trade prices because I worked in the trade for some ten years or so and when I buy fish, I buy them 10 or more at a time. This means I am fairly assured of getting both sexes. My aim, as it always is, is to breed the fish. I now supply local shops and my importer with about twelve species of fish exclusively. The importer DOES NOT import those particular species from the wild anymore!

So basically that is a 10% success rate. So far... I have another 3 or 4 species that *should* breed in March.

This isn't meant to sound bigheaded, but I hold a LOT of clout with my local shops and importers. If I was at the LFS or importers and he ordered a zebra octopus and I turned it down and told him why, he wouldn't order them again. This isn't just a guess by the way. It has held true on several occasions; even just last week when all these ‘zebras’ started to appear again.

I don’t order them. I don’t buy them when I do see them. I offer advice freely and always point to this website when I can. Is this being morally strong or acting purely in the animal’s best interest and therefore also the hobby’s? Greg’s Hogg Island Boa is a good example of when things go wrong, you could also look at red ear terrapins or problems associated with certain importers bringing in species of ‘monster’ fish like Pangassius (adult at 6 feet), Phractocephalus (adult at 6 feet), Psuedoplatystoma (adult at 6 feet), Arapaima (adult at 9 feet) and so on and so on… They sell these things at sizes of 4” in length! Whatever you may think, you can vote with your wallet and not buying these animals DOES make a difference. Let me point you to the case of dyed and tattooed fish in the UK… it is now so well publicised and frowned upon by the public through education of the barbaric practice, that there are hardly any stockist who would dare to sell them!!! Let alone the recent craze of tail docking fish from the far-east for the sake of vanity! Imagine taking your pet fish out of the water and with no anaesthetic, cutting off its tail! It has had articles published in magazines about how you can do this at home! See here… http://www.practicalfishkeeping.co.u...m.php?ne ws=957 disturbing pictures warning!!!

Some points on capture and exporting.
Richard did briefly describe the scenario in regards how animals make it to us as per Tony’s question but I think it glossed over a lot of issues…
E.g. many people who capture elusive animals like octopus still use cyanide or other chemicals. They basically dive down to an octopus’ den and squirt from a bottle into the den until it comes dashing out and they catch it with a net.

This practise is still widespread in SE Asia and well documented online, just Google it! It is banned in many countries for obvious reasons but still rife. I wonder how many ‘mystery’ cephalopod deaths could be attributed to chemical capture? A hell of a lot I’d guess!!!

Then, these normally small, family businesses have to keep the animal alive for a while until the exporter can arrive to collect it. They basically keep them in anything that will hold water. I have seen it for myself and it is pretty much light years away from the tanks we have set up and ranges from plastic buckets to old rusty bathtubs… what does metal do to cephs? Kills them.

So a collector might have to keep the animal for a week or two in substandard conditions until the exporter picks them up, then they get moved to the exporter’s facility. They might sit there for another couple of weeks until a particular order arrives for that species. During this time the animals are rarely, if ever, fed. That is because a 20 – 40 hour flight to the UK or USA might be less fatal if the animal doesn’t defecate in its own water… better not feed it then, eh? Also bear in mind that 90% of a cephalopod’s respiration produces ammonia and that being in a small bag for 20 – 40 hours is sure going to produce a lot of ammonia! Oh yeah, and they might also produce ink in their bag if they get stressed, again leading to DOAs. Really, what chance to these poor buggers have?

I have always been 100% behind the selling of captive bred stock so we can cut out the whole wild caught scenario. You won’t get any better a thrill from keeping a Wunderpus than a CB bimaculoides! Better yet, buy them as eggs as in the case of Sepia!

Now, once the animal eventually reaches its way to the country it’s going to, it is checked by customs where necessary and acclimatised to a new tank. In most cases the octopus is on sale as of the next day, or even the same day in some cases! Then off to a LFS, then from there, having been acclimatised yet again, on to a third tank in a buyer’s home. The animal may or may not have been cyanide caught and has probably gone through at least three different tanks in as many days! It might not have been fed for several weeks? Is the trade in marine animals fair and ethical? No, pretty damn far from it!

I think that the following statement ’The cephs that came in last week were packed very well, and I think the ceph mortality (4 of 10 cuttles DOA, 1 more DAA, and 1 'common' occy out of 6 and no 'zebras' out of 2)’ is appalling statistics. So out of 18 imported cephalopods only 12 lasted more than a day? How long did the rest survive? What killed the others? What lesson was learned there? What would be termed a success? Half living a month? 2 Months? 1 still alive after 6 months?

Dr Roy Caldwell said, ‘Once these octopus have been collected and removed from their home environment, they have zero fitness - they are evolutionarily dead.’ This is my sentiment exactly and in the last thread I asked, ‘what is the point in keeping them?’ They cannot be bred. A gravid female’s eggs cannot be reared. Nothing can be learned about their behaviour in captivity. What’s the point other than having a soon to be dead, but kinda cool in the meantime pet?

So, what about the wild ‘zebra’ population dynamics? Well, no one knows; fact! Anything from here on is just wild guesses. I won’t guess. Despite how this may appear I am not actually against keeping all species of cephalopod in aquaria. There is nothing wrong with captive bred stock, and I don’t have any problem with captive farmed stock (wild animals which lay eggs and the eggs are hatched and raised in captivity. I don’t even have a problem with species like briareus, bimaculoides or aculeatus which seem to be locally abundant. But when the experts are giving us warnings I think we should take heed regarding those species.

The UK is currently taking huge steps forward in protecting animals under the care of people. This includes farm animals, working animals and pets both vertebrates and invertebrates. I think that over the next few years it will make a difference. Legislation is needed to protect our interests and the interests of the animals we are interested in.

Animal Welfare Act 2006
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2006/ukpga_20060045_en.pdf

Interesting events over there, Colin. I never considered myself much of a rights activist of any sort, pretty much believed it was a personal choice for everyone...and heck, I eat meat.
I stopped eating fish two years ago as a personal choice, but Shanlyn still does, and it doesn't bother me. But, this sort of thing with validating collection for aquaria is driving me crazy.

It's not just octopus...there are fish that are brought into the country that should have never been touched, far too rare and impossible to breed in captivity. It really makes me ill.

According to my source who is an importer, cyanide use is still rife in certain areas. However, perhaps it is a misnomer and that squirting anything down the holes to flush out beasties is getting called that? That's my best guess...

Absolutely.

When I have some time, I will reply more on this topic, but I have been considering what we can do in regards to legislation. I have found a few websites that discuss the legal aspects of animal welfare. There is a law regarding the health of animals at pet stores.

http://www.animallaw.info/articles/ddusretailpetstores.htm

Also, Michigan State University School of Law has a website on animal law.

http://www.animallaw.info/

I think that the following statement ’The cephs that came in last week were packed very well, and I think the ceph mortality (4 of 10 cuttles DOA, 1 more DAA, and 1 'common' occy out of 6 and no 'zebras' out of 2)’ is appalling statistics. So out of 18 imported cephalopods only 12 lasted more than a day? How long did the rest survive? What killed the others? What lesson was learned there? What would be termed a success? Half living a month? 2 Months? 1 still alive after 6 months?

With respect, I think that is cherry picking a quote. The whole sentence read (italic added for highlight): 'The cephs that came in last week were packed very well, and I think the ceph mortality (4 of 10 cuttles DOA, 1 more DAA, and 1 'common' occy out of 6 and no 'zebras' out of 2) was because the shipment was delayed - a 30-40 hour trip turned into a 60 hour trip.

To have 12 out of 18 cephs surrive a 60 hour transit time speaks to the quality of the collection and packing. When the boxes finally arrived, all of use unpacking were expecting the worst, but were happy to find it wasn't the worst. It wasn't that 12 out of 18 is good, it is that [i]any[/] survived a shipment gone wrong is amazing.
The rest are all still alive a week later. I am doing my best to track how they do over time.
This particular exporter/collector doesn't use cyanide, and they pack their cephs in lots of water namely due to my getting the word to them regarding cephs. They don't collect big cuttles anymore for the same reason (2 of the cuttles were under and inch, and the rest were between 1 and 2 inches). This collector is also one of the new trends of collectors - a village station that has the community and the local environment at the forefront of their mission. All their animals are collected by hand and are kept well. Sadly, there is still no way for the end user to figure out if the fish they are looking at come from such a station.

There is plenty of cyanide still being used, but at the same time it is falling out of favor because net/hand catching is just as easy and the collectors are finally seeing that if the fish live longer, they get more money. This is rarely documented online because its not sexy, but it is discussed by people on the front lines in the Industry forum on reefs.org.

Also, we should all realize that the mortality we are discussing isn't limited to cephs, but to just about any wild collected marine ornamental. I produce pounds of captive raised coral, but because the industry is a volume industry, wild collected coral is still cheaper and for a lot of people money is the deciding factor. Although, when people spend 10 grand on a reef tank it is beyond me why they are so hot to save 20 bucks on a single specimen.


A quick point about the dyed and tattooed fish. I think its great that the UK has stopped their import. Sadly, this is not a local issue, but a global one, and those animals are going other places. Stopping their import in the UK is great, but for that action to truly be effective it needs to spread around the world. Keeping your won nose clean counts, but not forgetting that others don't care is also important.


** Warning! Philosophy Degree in action below **
I think we we are going to be honest, if we aren't propagating the animals in our tanks, the only actual justification for keeping anything in a glass prison is because you like to have it around. Is that bad, is that good? I don't know. However, even if we are propagating the animals, I think we are still part of the problem because our propagated animals make the hobby attractive to more people and most people don't care if they buy propagated animals or not. It seems to me that supporting the industry is supporting the industry, and that even those of us who supply the industry with propagated animals are still supporting the other, more icky parts of the industry. Even purchasing the animals with the intent of breeding doesn't stop something or justify something like what happened to the galaxy rasbora. I think keeping glass boxes full of animals supports all parts of the hobby/industry, good and bad. Does that mean we should get out? Maybe, maybe not. Does that mean we should work to change the industry/hobby - you bet. At the same time, I think we need to make sure we look at the entire picture. The industry/hobby seems a lot like climate change - local efforts are great, but they don't necessarily make much of a difference on the global scale.

** Warning! Philosophy Degree in action below **
I think we we are going to be honest, if we aren't propagating the animals in our tanks, the only actual justification for keeping anything in a glass prison is because you like to have it around. Is that bad, is that good? I don't know. However, even if we are propagating the animals, I think we are still part of the problem because our propagated animals make the hobby attractive to more people and most people don't care if they buy propagated animals or not. It seems to me that supporting the industry is supporting the industry, and that even those of us who supply the industry with propagated animals are still supporting the other, more icky parts of the industry. Even purchasing the animals with the intent of breeding doesn't stop something or justify something like what happened to the galaxy rasbora. I think keeping glass boxes full of animals supports all parts of the hobby/industry, good and bad. Does that mean we should get out? Maybe, maybe not. Does that mean we should work to change the industry/hobby - you bet. At the same time, I think we need to make sure we look at the entire picture. The industry/hobby seems a lot like climate change - local efforts are great, but they don't necessarily make much of a difference on the global scale.


Ditto. I haven't had pets of any sort in years. I had tons of them when I was a kid, but now I don't bother. This does not mean I don't want them, it just means that I can't justify it in any sort of way for myself.

I see plenty of huge dogs living in tiny apartments that never get exercised, eat too much, and sleep all the time. To me, this is pretty much the same issue as keeping cephs in too small of a tank. And I don't have time to get into the hate I have for the "purebred" issue, so I won't. To be short though, I think that we have done way more damage to the genetic material of canines than we can do to cephs.

But, humans learn mostly from mistakes I think, if they are capable of learning at all. We are obviously making a lot of mistakes that are taking a toll on the whole planet, and it may not be until we really screw up that we do something about it. And to mirror Thales, just being alive in this world supports icky/nasty parts of human behavior.

Soapboxes are fun sometimes. Passion is something that we value highly, but reason is often the first casualty of strong emotion. This is not an indictment of anyone or any comment, just a friendly reminder.:grin:

Hey Colin, whats the feeling about feeder fish in your neck of the woods?

Good points, but I still feel that the selection of animals to be kept should be a decision reached by the responsible aquarist, not the legislative government.

In the early 80's, laws were passed in Arizona and California prohibiting the private keeping of several types of reptiles...it did not effect the wild populations at all, but it did drive up the price.

If mimics are outlawed, they will still be collected and sold...just at higher prices. It is up to the individual to make the choice "Am I doing the right thing?" I guess if you can look in the mirror, and be happy, then you are.

Feeder fish is actually quite a rare thing...

There are some who get a kick out of feeding live fish to other fish like morays, lionfish or maybe arowanas but I would say that it is an exception and not exclusive.

I'll hold my hands up and say that i do it sometimes. Well, on occasion I will get rid of excess fry by just leaving them in with the parents. And, in the past I have had to feed feeders to fish who refused to eat like a leaf fish and one or two others. i have also used live feeders in the past for cuttles when i ran out of inverts to feed them.

I guess that under the new UK animal welfare act that feeding live vertebrates to other animals would be an offence.

I don't think responsible aquarists making decisions to not buy a certain species will do anything to protect that species in the wild or captivity. The market will collect animals till there are no more to collect, we've seen it time and again, regardless of the actions/protests of individuals or small groups. Domestic laws regarding the importations or private keeping of exotic animals are like putting bandaids on open sucking chest wounds. Any meaningful change needs to happen at the source, weather it be commercial or legal.

Good points, but I still feel that the selection of animals to be kept should be a decision reached by the responsible aquarist, not the legislative government.

Oh, that's the part I hate. It's what really divides my feelings on the subject.

It would be better if the responsible aquarists could guide the legislative governments.

Anyone want to define what a responsible aquarist is?

here's a knee jerk reaction - My local government decided that there is maybe a species of snakehead that could possibly survive a freezing cold scottish winter and be a problem in local waterways... what to do? They banned ALL species of Channa which even includes dwarves that would die if the water dropped below 60... The water outside is about the 30s just now

I don't think responsible aquarists making decisions to not buy a certain species will do anything to protect that species in the wild

Hmmm I disagree here, as the consumer we have the ultimate say in whether we buy the animals or not. We can speak with our wallets.

I also use education as a tool and it works! By buying animals like zebra octopuses, for whatever reason, only exasperates the problem

Well, snakeheads have been illegal here since the 80's (there is even a horrible movie called "snakehead terror" out there.) as a pre-emptive strike against the possibility of local release.

I disagree strongly that we should leave it up to others to decide how and well we keep animals in captivity. As stated, it should be up to the person individually...the problem isn't with the cephalopods, it's with the people keeping them.

But surely as a good example of an animal keeper, your input to any legislation would only be a good thing?

How would you guide people? How would you compete between the factors of what is good for conservation and 'boy, that's cool and despite the fact I know it's maybe rare; I'm going to buy it anyway!'

Hmmm I disagree here, as the consumer we have the ultimate say in whether we buy the animals or not. We can speak with our wallets.


Consumers can have the ultimate say, however, 'responsible aquarists' are no where near the bulk of the consumers in the pet trade. In the states at least, non responsible aquarists make up the vast majority of consumers, and they are unwilling to even pay 10% more for something tank raised over something wild caught.

Yep, my point exactly, I dont think that there are enough responsible aquarirts or herpetologists out there...

I disagree strongly that we should leave it up to others to decide how and well we keep animals in captivity. As stated, it should be up to the person individually...the problem isn't with the cephalopods, it's with the people keeping them.

At the same time, it isn't really people in the know that are causing the problem for cephs, its people with passing fancies just like with the galaxy rasbora and the Hog Island Boa.
More importantly, its the people on the supply side who are trying to make a living with their local resources that are supplying the animals. I think the more effective choice is to educate/legislate them regarding sustainable practices.

In the states we get stupid legislation all the time regarding animals, and then, it doesn't even have teeth. The legislators seem more interested in feel good laws instead of laws that make a difference.
All boas were made illegal in SF, ignoring the idea that something like a ball python makes a great pet.
It is illegal to own/sell baby leopard sharks in California, but it is just fine to fish for gravid mothers and slaughter the pups for bait.
The Vincent Law was passed to require all pet shops to give out care sheets with each animal sold, and to keep track of everyone who bought every animal. The care sheets were not supplied, and legislators didn't have any idea about how many different animals they were dealing with. Furthermore, two days after the law went into effect, everyone was essentially told not to bother, it wasn't going to be enforced.

Colin,

Interesting about feeder fish. In the states its a booming business. Its funny/sad to hear people complaining about painted glass fish when they are holding a bag of 20 feeders.








Returning to the main topic, I think the issues need to be addressed on several levels at the same time. Local education, regional education, international education and the same levels on the industry side. I think the main problem we face is that the pet trade is a volume business, and that there is the attitude that anyone who wants and animal should be able to have it at a cheap price. Anyone have the time, effort and money to be part of an international collation of NPO's? I think with 20 million we could make a real dent in all these issues.

I think animals (and gasoline) should cost lots of money, and it makes me a little sick that collectors living in poverty get a dollar for an animal that sells for 100 bucks. I think the paradigm of the industry needs to change. I would love to see a departure from the warehouse model of pet shopping, and a move to a request system. If someone wants a particular animal, they put in a request directly to the collector, and it gets collected for them and shipped to them. No middle man, no collecting 50 so 40 can make it to the wholesaler so the LFS can stock 30 so they can sell 2. There was an outfit called Twilight Aquatics in Hawaii that collected fish on demand. They were great. Call them up and they go diving for what you ask for. Not only that, they insist on tanking it for a week or two to make sure its eating before they send it out. If its not, they put it back where they got it. Amazing business, and I used them often. Sadly, not enough others did and they closed their doors.

There. A wall of posts that will prolly get glossed over! :grin:

The local fish store works somewhat like that...he only orders what is pre-ordered...unfortunately, a lot of the recent demands are for "those dang bright colored octopusses, ya know?", and I had to cease dealing with him over it.

All of you are correct in saying that this is a multi-multi-faceted problem, not one easy solution in sight. Still, it is nice to see the discussion continuing, and perhaps some fleshing out of practices for the future.

Great thread, folks.

Thales' point about it being a good idea to order directly customer->collector and cut out the middle-men seems like a very good thing. A lot of the "new internet economy" can use that model (as in that "The World is Flat" book) but a lot of established business fight tooth-and-nail to block that, because they make their money by being middle-men, and they want to defend their niches even though they've moved from a useful purpose to being vestigial parasites... so I think it's a great idea, but I think it's likely to encounter a lot of opposition from wholesalers and LFSes because they'd be cut out of the loop (I think wholesalers can evolve, and LFSes can still provide the valuable function of providing advice, supplies, and other things that still can use a local centralized clearing house, but a lot of businesses are so risk-averse that they look at all changes as a threat, and will fight for the status quo.)

Although, being a Libertarian at heart, I find Cthuhu77's notion that the individual should be responsible very appealing, I believe based on what I've observed that a lot of "exotic animals" hobbies attract people who aren't willing to learn enough to be responsible. Ideally, educating these people is the right solution, but it's not clear how best to do that, since there seems to be a continual stream of ignorant people, and many are too rushed, stubborn, or close-minded to be responsible. On the other hand, I think it's desirable to welcome new people to the community, and give them the benefit of the doubt, even if they have interest but no knowledge. Unlike, say, aviation, where there's a strong incentive to have requirements before someone is allowed to participate, there isn't anything, at least right now, that stops a novice from walking into an LFS an buying some random tank and a wonderpus. How can we give that novice an opportunity to understand the situation, and how should we address the fact that there are novices who refuse those opportunities even when they are available?

I get the impression that there is an attitude progression in being involved with exotic animals: there's sort of an initial enthusiasm, then an appreciation for the depth of the complexities and issues, and then finally, sometimes, a jaded frustration that so many participants in the field are so ignorant of the big picture. This is probably a gross oversimplification, but it seems to me that Cthulhu77 and Colin have gotten to that jaded stage, and Thales, Cuttlegirl, DHyslop, Nancy, and Carol are somewhere in the middle stage, where the enthusiasm offsets the jadedness.

Personally, I'm still pretty enthusiastic about keeping cephs, but I very much want to understand the issues and "do the right thing, and I think everyone I mentioned in the "middle ground" category is pretty much in that boat. And one of the things I like about TONMO is that we try very hard to shift people from "interested novice" to this middle ground. And while I certainly hold a great respect for Greg and Colin and Roy as having "earned their stripes," I think there's a danger of them coming across as curmudgeons since they're so frustrated with seeing so many cases of well-meaning stupidity that leads to mistreatment of animals that they're a bit inclined to associate naive enthusiasm with irresponsible, unethical bad practices. I have a great appreciation for curmudgeons, in fact, so I don't mean that as an insult, just as an observation that might help us steer things in the most positive direction possible: enthusiasm can be steered by a Gandalf-like figure to be responsible, and sometimes the enthusiastic newbies can become great advocates of the Forces of Good! I know it's terribly frustrating when people don't respect hard-earned wisdom in their enthusiasm, and there's a lot of "I refuse to admit that I don't know what I'm doing" that's just shameful, but there are also opportunities to correct this with teaching rather than condemnation, or so I'd like to think, at least. And it's perhaps helpful to remember that "back in the day" even the jaded folks were enthusiastic at the "boy, I've got a cephalopod! in my house! that's SO FRIGGING COOL!" stage (I would assume, anyway). That enthusiasm can be steered, but if it's squashed, it often leads to unfortunate responses (bitterness, resentfulness, close-mindedness, and whatnot).

:twocents: in another wall-o-text(tm)

Another issue I wonder about that's connected to this discussion is the trade off between promotion of enthusiasm for cephs, including exotics, and the discouraging of things that will impact the animals badly, both in the wild and when they're kept in tanks.

I've always really, really enjoyed Thales' videos and pictures, and he's such a great showman that he really makes keeping exotics like Metasepia and Wonderpuses look fascinating and thrilling, and I would hate to discourage that (because, in fact, I really look forward to seeing his Wonderpus videos set to some cool soundtrack!) but I think that the notion that it glamorizes and, whether intentionally or not, promotes the keeping of these animals as pets is a very valid concern. I don't mean to pick on Thales in particular, just to flatter him for his cool multimedia and bring up the example, but I've been asking myself how I can make the wonderp.us site I'm starting to set up show off how cool these animals are, yet not encourage irresponsible keeping or collection, since I am pretty much convinced that it'd be better for everyone if they were no longer collected and sold in LFSes, and most people would be better off with other animals.

I'm opposed to censorship of information to forward an agenda, so I'd like to keep references to anything that anyone learns that could help anyone who has a wonderpus to give that animal the best life possible, but I think it should be very closely tied with our position that it's unethical to collect and import them, and that anyone considering buying one should be strongly discouraged from it, and should ideally get a tank-bred bimac or bandensis instead, or at least a humanely-collected, well-documented, non-threatened species.

I'm not sure how best to do this, and I also know that often people will just see the "flashy video" as a "wow, that's a cool octopus" but won't notice/read/remember that it's associated with a message that these animals are really not a good choice for hobbyists, for technical, conservation, and ethical reasons. I don't want to appear hypocritical or heavy-handed, but I also don't want to end up being "part of the problem" leading to the continued unsustainable, cruel, or irresponsible collection and sale of "zebras." And maybe if people can get their fix of these animals on the web or in public aquariums they'd be less likely to feel a need to try to keep them at home... or maybe not: I love watching sea dragons and GPOs and large cuttles in public aquariums, and I know better than to think about them as private pets, but I see the appeal... and even the big aquariums like Long Beach and Monterey don't have wonderpuses and metasepia where I could pay my admission and watch them for hours, like I've been know to occasionally do with octos and cuttles there :roll: But I also like having a domestic cat as a pet, and don't feel an urge to have an ocelot or a lynx, even though they might be more spectacular or something, so by the same logic I don't feel much urge to have a wonderpus rather than a bimac or bandensis, particularly if there are ethical or conservation concerns. But apparently there are a lot of people who don't react that way, and the cost of a wonderpus over a bimac is small enough that it's more in reach than comparing an ocelot to a kitten. (And I imagine it's harder to get an ocelot, although I haven't tried.)

I'm very curious what everyone thinks about this aspect of the ethics debate, since, at least to me, it's a somewhat separable topic, since even if there's some disagreement about the exact details of the problem or solution, we seem to all pretty much agree that we should encourage responsible behavior and do anything we can to make sure that the hobby trade doesn't devastate the wild population.

yet another :twocents: -- at this rate, I'll be broke soon...

Yes, this is a great thread -- and I want to acknowledge Dr. Roy's excellent post from just a day ago, but way back on page 5. A wall of text indeed; I get heat at work for writing long emails -- this is the zone for me!

I would love to see a departure from the warehouse model of pet shopping, and a move to a request system. If someone wants a particular animal, they put in a request directly to the collector, and it gets collected for them and shipped to them. No middle man, no collecting 50 so 40 can make it to the wholesaler so the LFS can stock 30 so they can sell 2. There was an outfit called Twilight Aquatics in Hawaii that collected fish on demand. They were great. Call them up and they go diving for what you ask for. Not only that, they insist on tanking it for a week or two to make sure its eating before they send it out. If its not, they put it back where they got it. Amazing business, and I used them often. Sadly, not enough others did and they closed their doors.
What better place than the Internet to revive this kind of direct fulfillment? I am sure TONMO.com can help here, but we need the right resources and connections. We can definitely make a difference and we don't need $20 million to do it (but yes it sure would help). But we do need a bit of alignment, drive, luck and vibes, and in the end, the right contacts. As Monty says, this idea wouldn't go over well with the established LFS and bricks-and-mortars -- but ultimately, that's the idea here, isn't it?

How can we give that novice an opportunity to understand the situation, and how should we address the fact that there are novices who refuse those opportunities even when they are available?
I will post the TONMO.com flyer this weekend. KRin had created one a year or so back, and I emailed it to Greg when we struck up a discussion about it before the holidays. Let me resurrect the flyer itself. Then maybe the TONMO.com faithful can print them out and drop them off to their LFS's, to point out that it's a high-quality free resource for people interested in cephs. Not trying to be self-promoting but I am the Webmaster here after all, and I feel there's an opportunity to bring like-minded people together for the purpose of collective education.
I've been asking myself how I can make the wonderp.us site I'm starting to set up show off how cool these animals are, yet not encourage irresponsible keeping or collection, since I am pretty much convinced that it'd be better for everyone if they were no longer collected and sold in LFSes, and most people would be better off with other animals.
There is no reason you shouldn't state this explicitly on your site! Wunderp.us can absolutely be about this majestic creature in its natural habitat, yes? When I started TONMO.com in 2000, I did not foresee this becoming the leading site on ceph care. I thought it'd be a place to talk about washed up giant squid, and generally discuss our shared appreciation for these creatures (octopus, squid, cuttlefish, nautilus) as they exist in the ocean. We've got all that today, which pleases me greatly... The Ceph Care angle, which also pleases me greatly, did not come about until a year or two into things, when the site started doing real well in search engines and ceph owners started posting in our forums about best practices. Nancy was a staff member out of her love for cephs, way before becoming a tank owner herself! Just an interesting piece of history there.

Monty,

Getting an ocelot is not as difficult as you would hope, nor a lion or tiger for that matter. Texas is quite the place for exotic cat breeding and sale. Plenty of buyers as well, else you wouldn't see the TV shows about the rescues. Fortunately, lions and tigers sometimes try to eat people, so the demand for them is not as great as as something that you can keep in a glass box.

I think it is a natural progression for TONMO to take a greater role in conservation, as it seems that the majority of the active members are greatly concerned with it. The problem comes down to what is the most effective way to do it. I think this is a case where you just have to pick one and stick to it. OF course, we may suffer the fate of becoming a political snafu, but it is no less than something we love that is at stake.

ON demand collecting seems like a great idea, but loads of problems are apparent. But it seems to me that that a TONMO non-profit foundation, that supported research, conservation and a small sales arm that did do something like that is highly possible. While I am just an uncertified nerd, there are plenty of others on here with more experience and credentials that could pull something like this off. Just think, bottle water and organic produce were both once a joke to store owners and comsumers.

I will happily pass out flyers to the LFSs in my area, though I have rarely seen any of them cephs.

Galaxy rasbora meet bangaii cardinal

http://www.iucn.org/themes/marine/marine_species.htm

Short story - 89% reduction in wild populations of the bangaii by collection for the hobby since their discovery in 1994.

I am on the search for captive bred animals to begin breeding them myself.

Galaxy rasbora meet bangaii cardinal

http://www.iucn.org/themes/marine/marine_species.htm

Short story - 89% reduction in wild populations of the bangaii by collection for the hobby since their discovery in 1994.

I am on the search for captive bred animals to begin breeding them myself.

I saw that the other day. It's pretty sad to know these are some relatively easy-to-breed fish and yet their wild population has taken such a hit. I assume this is going to impact their capture for trade, but how long will it be before all of the collectors are made aware and understand this?

Collection laws are different in each country so unless all of the countries that the Bangaii are found in put them on a 'no capture' list, I'm sure the wild populations will continue to diminish. Unless laws are set I don't think many collectors will care about the number that are left in the wild; they don't get money off of captive raised ones.

I've thought about buying one before, and now I'm even more inclined to get one because they may be harder to get soon.

As far as galaxies go - they turned out to be possibly the easiest fish i have ever bred so the future is bound to be okay for them. it wont be long before the commercial fish breeders are chucking them out by the thousand.

Only one drawback is that when they spawn they only produce about 3 or 4 eggs per day rather than a huge lump of eggs in one spawning so breeding them is a bit time consuming.

To date I have reared about 200 of them and keeping passing them to other fishkeepers.

Good luck with the bangaii, shame they are in trouble!

Shipposhack said, 'I've thought about buying one before, and now I'm even more inclined to get one because they may be harder to get soon.'

NO, that would be the wrong thing to do, dont buy one, set up a tank for a group and breed them!!!

And only buy CB bangaiis to start your breeding group!

Thales,

Just as important, buy captive born from different dealers or on different dates or you will end up pairing off siblings - not so good.

Jay

Thales,

Just as important, buy captive born from different dealers or on different dates or you will end up pairing off siblings - not so good.

Jay

You betcha!

You betcha!

That brings up something else I was thinking about.

As far as cephalopods go, it seems a few of the captive bred specimens around here are first and/or second generation incest babies... maybe I'm wrong on that though. Doesn't the fact that keeping a pair in a tank put a severe damper on captive breeding attempts for octos and cuttles? Kind of a rhetorical question, but being the ideal situation (making captive bred specimens available) and at the same time least ideal situation (placing two octos together to broaden the gene pool) makes sustainable captive breeding seem almost impossible to me, at least as far as octopus goes.

Discuss. :grad:

AM,
I have been having the similar thoughts. If my sibblings breed, I think I would like to try to raise Mercs (Neal has some concerns about the cost of such a venture :hmm:). Since it seems that to raise two together, they need to be born very close together, my first thought is to try to obtain a wild caught brooding adult and mix the WC young with my CB young. I am still in the thinking stages and I want to see how my little group survives and if they breed at all. So far I have had no octocides but they are beginning to mature and that may change. I may decide it is too much work and too expensive but I keep toying with the idea.

Well, what you end up with by captive breeding are "crossed" lines...I am sure someone will produce an albino octopus soon, and they will be all the rage for any saltwater crank.
Those keepers who actually care about the end goal of keeping cephalopods in captivity will work to make sure that they gene pool they work with is not influenced by trade dollars...there are several members of Tonmo who fall into that category...unfortunately, the bulk of people who keep animals as "pets" aren't so responsible, hence my disgust with the pet trade.

I don't think I agree with taking animals that are protected/endangered out of the wild to "save them" is a valid point.

Having once again come under some friendly fire regarding my position on keeping cephalopods in captivity, I would like to make one huge point:

The captive care of cephalopod species that have proven large wild populations that suffer no damage due to collection for the pet trade, such as bimacs, is definitely of interest to us all.

Some people keep animals that have no proven stable wild population, and I violently disagree with keeping these animals.

We have seen a number of new threads here on Tonmo in reference to the captive keeping of animals, which is fine. There are several members who know as much as anyone in the world about keeping cephs in a tank.

For the animals with unproven populations we need to find a way to get them listed as a CITES animal... and high enough on the list ASAP. That is one way to put a damper on the trade of an animal that may be endangered.

In this day and age of political intrigue, the chances of doing much with CITES are spare, at best. I would love to see some sweeping changes in the animal trade, but I understand the economic problems also. I am regularily offered large amounts of money to obtain animals, and being out of work, it is tough to say no. I am lucky enough that I have financial resources to back me up, but I do feel bad for the people stuck on the end of collection being their only means of making a living.

I do love animals, but people have to factor in also. It certainly is a huge problem.

Greg,
Did you give up on internet journalism?

As an aside,

I read a report on elasmobranchs in the Mediterranean a few months ago. Many of the sharks not listed as threatened or endangered still had very low numbers. The irony of the paper was that it appeared those sharks had been so heavily over-fished that there was not enough data to collect on the sharks in order to have them listed as threatened or endangered so their protection is still in limbo.

Yes, people have to eat and those people who collect animals and sell them to importers do make a living, but there are alternatives. I believe it is Project Piaba that is doing a great job of both sustainable fishing practices while also keeping the native collectors with food in their mouths. It can be a difficult balancing act.

I do not believe that any animals, land or marine, should be taken from their habitat without prior knowledge of population numbers; if prior knowledge exists, and if the animal is indeed endangered (threatened), procedures must be set in place for these animals such as captive breeding. The Lake Victoria cichlid is a good example of this considering some of the species that exist in captivity no longer exist in the wild and captive breeding is happening in aquaria. While nautiluses are common in aquaria there are no firm numbers of population size, but there are reports of fishing declines in certain areas. That being said, it is sometimes unsettling to have that type of animal in captivity, especially since we really do not know anything about its natural habitat and behavior. Of course I will volunteer to go to Palau and research population sizes in the horrible conditions that is the western Pacific:roflmao:

Greg

Greg,
Did you give up on internet journalism?

No, not at all. I just have not been too sessile lately, what with the f'd up spine. I can sit for about five minutes at a time now, so I should be back up and spouting soon.

Of course I will volunteer to go to Palau and research population sizes in the horrible conditions that is the western Pacific:roflmao:


haha...ya I bet you would, in fact lets make it a site field trip???:boat:

haha...ya I bet you would, in fact lets make it a site field trip???:boat:

hehe, i lived in Palau for a while, the only way you'll see a nautilus is to pay a diveshop to trap one in the depths and lift it up. Although, later that day you might see some very confused dying ones floating around on the surface.

Tourist $$ rule!

I cant believe that there is such demand for mimic/wonderpus in the states. I'd like to write something on this subject. Anyone have any contacts in Indo for the collectors?

Thanks.

haha...ya I bet you would, in fact lets make it a site field trip???:boat:

hehe, i lived in Palau for a while, the only way you'll see a nautilus is to pay a diveshop to trap one in the depths and lift it up. Although, later that day you might see some very confused dying ones floating around on the surface.

Tourist $$ rule!

I cant believe that there is such demand for mimic/wonderpus in the states. I'd like to write something on this subject. Anyone have any contacts in Indo for the collectors?

Thanks.

I don't believe there is that much of a demand. Marine Ornamentals is more like a giant supermarket that customers browse. Whatever can be collected is collected and shipped, and the stores try to sell it. What is ordered is not necessarily shipped, but what is available is shipped. In the states, people will buy what is available over what they actually want simply because it is available. In short, people buy them because they are available, not because they want them.

The trapping of the nautilus is terrible, and I hope anyone going to the area avoids dive outfits that do it.

:welcome: bali_boy. That sounds pretty unfortunate about the nautilus trapping :sad: :nautilus:... it's interesting to get insights from people who have experienced the environment firsthand.