Was Marshall a member of that chorus?

Clem, he is actually a very good friend, and a world authority on Mollusca. No, he certainly wasn't one to do so (and if he did have a chuckle at the time then he wouldn't have said it out loud).

Interesting that Bruce Marshall doesn't believe it's a male........I rather hope it is! Apart for the value to science, I like the idea of a REALLY BIG MOMMA out there!!!!!!!

JYou and me both! The Newsweek story is pretty good, it isn't the same old rehash we've been getting. I love this stuff!!! :grin:

Colossal squid's headache for science (http://news.google.com/news/url?sa=T&ct=us/1-0&fd=R&url=http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/6453997.stm&cid=0&ei=k2n6RdmqMMCYsgHw5b2lCw)
BBC News, UK - 15 hours ago
The squid (Mesonychoteuthis hamiltoni) came into the institution this week after being caught last month by fishermen operating in Antarctic waters. ...


More... (http://news.google.com/news/url?sa=T&ct=us/1-0&fd=R&url=http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/6453997.stm&cid=0&ei=k2n6RdmqMMCYsgHw5b2lCw)


Scoop.co.nz (http://news.google.com/news/url?sa=T&ct=us/9i-0&fd=R&url=http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/SC0703/S00035.htm&cid=0&ei=k2n6RdmqMMCYsgHw5b2lCw)
Te Papa Gets Largest Ever Squid Specimen (http://news.google.com/news/url?sa=T&ct=us/9-0&fd=R&url=http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/SC0703/S00035.htm&cid=0&ei=k2n6RdmqMMCYsgHw5b2lCw)
Scoop.co.nz, New Zealand - Mar 13, 2007
A colossal squid, believed to be the first adult male specimen to be landed, was delivered to Te Papa yesterday. Unfrozen, the specimen is thought to weigh ...


More... (http://news.google.com/news/url?sa=T&ct=us/9-0&fd=R&url=http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/SC0703/S00035.htm&cid=0&ei=k2n6RdmqMMCYsgHw5b2lCw)

According to the Newsweek article, the 33ft, 954lb. specimen is male. However, I was disappointed to hear Steve O'Shea deride the intelligence potential of Giant and Colossal Squids -especially given the brilliance of their smaller relatives!

Rob

They must have hauled up ~ 450kg, as they had plenty of opportunity to weigh it at Sanfords when it returned (egg on face if seriously exaggerated). However, this could include a tremendous amount of water in that mantle, making it very heavy. Then again, the deck shot (with skipper) is of a deflated squid, water gone, and this must be what was weighed.
Hi Steve,

This ambiguity is, in part what made me inquire about calculating a gross "wet weight" for the squid, allowing for degrees of mantle inflation and the presence of a lighter mass of ammonium chloride solution in the buoyancy chamber. Would that be a useful thing to know? I've been trying to visualize the interplay of the mantle, brachial crown and buccal at the moment of prey capture, and how much mass could be concentrated behind the beak. (Math is definitely not my strong suit, btw.) Please let me know if I'm barking up an empty tree!

Cheers,
Clem

It weighs 490kg
More to come on Tuesday

According to the Newsweek article, the 33ft, 954lb. specimen is male. However, I was disappointed to hear Steve O'Shea deride the intelligence potential of Giant and Colossal Squids -especially given the brilliance of their smaller relatives!

Rob
I wouldn't worry too much about that Rob. If it had a brain the size of a football then I would be more comfortable recognising it as a truly brilliant animal. To be honest we do not know what the size and shape of the Mesonychoteuthis brain is (other than the fact the oesophagus will pass through it, rendering it donught-shaped), and we're not about to cut the brain out and weight it on this specimen. I am also aware that I cannot always use brain weight as a proxy for intelligence. However, for Architeuthis to have a brain weighing no more than 20g in a 275kg adult female, I do question whether this effective mega-ganglion is capable of much comprehension.

Is there a reason that you think the female is bigger than the male? In both Sepia officinalis and Sepia bandensis the males are bigger than the females. Are squid females bigger than males?
It would make sense since the ovaries are such a large part of the body mass.

Just wondering...

Generally in the animal kingdom a female is bigger than a male. In squids sure the large volume that the ovaries take up may account for some but this is generally due to the fact that the need to put out more energy than males, because they need to provide some sort of yolk or the like for reproduction purposes. So a larger body is needed to accompany this extra energy expenditure

My little Sepia bandensis laid over 200 grape-sized eggs and she was only 2 inches long, my males are probably over three inches. I think she put more energy into egg producing and laying than the males did into fighting and mating. Maybe she was smaller because most of her food consumption was put into producing eggs.

Possibly, not all animals are like this, and I am not that familiar with cuttlefish (hope to get better). Also your Sepia is not in a natural environment so it may not follow this rule if it does in the wild

Science News (http://news.google.com/news/url?sa=T&ct=us/1i-0&fd=R&url=http://www.sciencenews.org/articles/20070317/fob5.asp&cid=0&ei=arv7Rc-gGIqWswGlj4WoCw)
It's a Girl: Atlantic mystery squid undergoes scrutiny (http://news.google.com/news/url?sa=T&ct=us/1-0&fd=R&url=http://www.sciencenews.org/articles/20070317/fob5.asp&cid=0&ei=arv7Rc-gGIqWswGlj4WoCw)
Science News - 12 hours ago
The fishing boat's captain sent the squid's decomposing body to the Mote Marine Laboratory, headquartered in Sarasota, Fla., where cephalopod specialist ...


More... (http://news.google.com/news/url?sa=T&ct=us/1-0&fd=R&url=http://www.sciencenews.org/articles/20070317/fob5.asp&cid=0&ei=arv7Rc-gGIqWswGlj4WoCw)

Colossal Squid Reaches its New Home (http://news.google.com/news/url?sa=T&ct=us/2-0&fd=R&url=http://scienceblogs.com/grrlscientist/2007/03/colossal_squid_reaches_its_new.php&cid=0&ei=arv7Rc-gGIqWswGlj4WoCw)
ScienceBlogs - 13 hours ago
You might remember that last week, I wrote about the colossal squid, Mesonychoteuthis hamiltoni, that had been captured in Antarctica's Ross Sea in early ...


More... (http://news.google.com/news/url?sa=T&ct=us/2-0&fd=R&url=http://scienceblogs.com/grrlscientist/2007/03/colossal_squid_reaches_its_new.php&cid=0&ei=arv7Rc-gGIqWswGlj4WoCw)

TV3 News
(http://news.google.com/news/url?sa=T&ct=us/0i-0&fd=R&url=http://www.tv3.co.nz/News/NewsDisplay/tabid/209/articleID/23552/Default.aspx&cid=0&ei=6q__RaLLBMCYsgHw5b2lCw)Colossal squid to be officially handed to Te Papa today (http://news.google.com/news/url?sa=T&ct=us/0-0&fd=R&url=http://www.tv3.co.nz/News/NewsDisplay/tabid/209/articleID/23552/Default.aspx&cid=0&ei=6q__RaLLBMCYsgHw5b2lCw)
TV3 News, New Zealand - 8 hours ago
A Colossal squid caught in Antartic waters last month will be officially handed to Te Papa in Wellington later today. The squid, thought to weigh around 450 ...


More... (http://news.google.com/news/url?sa=T&ct=us/0-0&fd=R&url=http://www.tv3.co.nz/News/NewsDisplay/tabid/209/articleID/23552/Default.aspx&cid=0&ei=6q__RaLLBMCYsgHw5b2lCw)

Scientists ponder colossal defrost (http://news.google.com/news/url?sa=T&ct=us/3-0&fd=R&url=http://tvnz.co.nz/view/page/411749/1030137&cid=0&ei=6q__RaLLBMCYsgHw5b2lCw)
TVNZ, New Zealand - 2 hours ago
The biggest Colossal squid ever landed has been officially handed over to New Zealand's national museum, but scientists are at a loss as to exactly how to ...


More... (http://news.google.com/news/url?sa=T&ct=us/3-0&fd=R&url=http://tvnz.co.nz/view/page/411749/1030137&cid=0&ei=6q__RaLLBMCYsgHw5b2lCw)

So anyone got any bright ideas on how they can defrost the darned thing in one piece?

circulating water? maybe a little formalin thrown in for insurance?

circulating water? maybe a little formalin thrown in for insurance?

Is it formalin they'll use to preserve it? Anyone know the freezing point of whatever it is they'll use? If it's above about 5C would it work if they just put the whole thing in a temperature contolled vat of preservative and kept the temperature marginally above freezing so that as it thaws the preservative soaks in and does it's job? Or do they need to do the studying before it's soaked in preservative?

Hmmm, given that the problem seems to be that the outside will start to decompose before the inside thawed (I think I saw about 4 odd days to thaw) could decomposition be slowed by altering the atmosphere it's in? I recall seeing a Seafood New Zealand magazine which showed that one NZ company had done a whole lot of work on determining the best mix of gasses for maintaining the shelf life of fish. I think it ended up being a specific mixture of carbon dioxide and nitrogen.

Alternate right out there idea, how about multiple low level microwave beams which could be moved around on a regular schedule to produce a mobile point of intersection allowing heat to be applied to areas inside the squid without producing too much surface heating (like they use to target radiation treatment for cancer) so that by moving the point of intersection around the whole thing could be thawed at a reasonably even rate. First question (and probably the last :wink: ) How good are microwaves at penetrating ice? I have a vague recollection that the answer is 'not very'.

i think it depends on whether they want to take genetic samples... i wonder if a saltwater formalin solution would be any better? my thinking being that the salt would tamper w/ the specific heat of the water, maybe changing how fast the squid melts (bonus points for being closer to the squid's natural element) and the formalin to try and to keep it from decomposing....

hell's bells!

i forgot about :oshea: 's fixing article:

http://www.tonmo.com/science/public/squidfixingnotes.php

oh, re: formalin:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Formalin

I am also aware that I cannot always use brain weight as a proxy for intelligence.

Many Thanks Steve.

Perhaps next time you could suggest on national media that suggestions on how to fry calamari would be welcome (and give them YOUR email address). Of the 426 suggestions on thawing squid, I particularly like the one that we should thaw it then release it back into the antarctic waters where it will enjoy its freedom......b.t.w. the freezer floor partially collapsed - but I think that was more to do with the shoddy construction method than the 490kg weight.

http://www.tonmo.com/forums/
TVNZ (http://news.google.com/news/url?sa=T&ct=us/0i-0&fd=R&url=http://tvnz.co.nz/view/page/411365/1031855&cid=1114637882&ei=PwEBRsTSIpLSqQPOtPyWDA)Scientists flooded with squid ideas (http://news.google.com/news/url?sa=T&ct=us/0-0&fd=R&url=http://tvnz.co.nz/view/page/411365/1031855&cid=1114637882&ei=PwEBRsTSIpLSqQPOtPyWDA)
TVNZ, New Zealand - 2 hours ago
Te Papa Museum scientists have been inundated with suggestions about how to defrost their newest acquisition, the world's largest squid. ...
Thawing giant squid a massive challenge (http://news.google.com/news/url?sa=T&ct=us/0-1&fd=R&url=http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200703/s1877520.htm&cid=1114637882&ei=PwEBRsTSIpLSqQPOtPyWDA) ABC Online
Scientists ponder colossal defrost (http://news.google.com/news/url?sa=T&ct=us/0-2&fd=R&url=http://tvnz.co.nz/view/page/411749/1030137&cid=1114637882&ei=PwEBRsTSIpLSqQPOtPyWDA) TVNZ
all 3 news articles

More... (http://news.google.com/news/url?sa=T&ct=us/0-0&fd=R&url=http://tvnz.co.nz/view/page/411365/1031855&cid=1114637882&ei=PwEBRsTSIpLSqQPOtPyWDA)

The Meso defrosting problem reminds me of the woolly mammoth defrosting problem: what to do with a 23-ton block of permafrost with preserved mammoth inside? They used hairdryers and worked inside an ice cave. Attached is a PDF which describes the process.

Custom-builders of high-performance gaming computers are wizards at getting heat out of tightly packed boxes, using liquid-coolant pipes and fans. Someone with that kind of knowledge might be in a position to suggest how to get heat in to something in a regulated, gentle fashion. Just a thought.

Cheers,
Clem

Many Thanks Steve.

Perhaps next time you could suggest on national media that suggestions on how to fry calamari would be welcome (and give them YOUR email address).

:oops:

I think it's great that the public have got behind this; nothing like engaging them in a puzzle. I had a discussion with an engineer yesterday regarding induction heating - similar to what Cairnos has proposed. He thinks the squid could be entirely defrosted in a matter of minutes to a few hours; hopefully it wouldn't cook in the process. We really need a couple of sacrificial Architeuthis to trial the technique on first. Now how do we go about doing this? Cairnos, can you help?

b.t.w. the freezer floor partially collapsed - but I think that was more to do with the shoddy construction method than the 490kg weight.

:shock: Sounds like an insurance scam to me :wink: Don't forget to pay your power bill, whatever you do. I'd hate to have that thing defrost.

:oops:

.We really need a couple of sacrificial Architeuthis to trial the technique on first. Now how do we go about doing this? .




It's not rocket science - there's a perfectly usable solution to the problem of getting rid of the ice while keeping it at -4 Celcius. Think about it.:smile:

The incremental increase in temp option? My only concern with that was all of the other stuff that you had in the freezers there ....

keep it away from air conditioning vents while you're defrosting, eh Steve? :twisted: :lol:

It's not rocket science - there's a perfectly usable solution to the problem of getting rid of the ice while keeping it at -4 Celcius. Think about it.:smile:

Well if you insist on doing it the boring way..... some people have no sense of adventure. This could have been the perfect opportunity to develop entire new realms of frozen giant squid rapid defrosting technologies :wink:

Any chance of filling us in on any other interesting suggestions recieved?

From a chef's point of view: Thawing that thing out doesn't seem like a big deal to me, if you have a refrigerator large enough. I used to thaw frozen 30 lb turkeys in five gallon buckets of brine in my walk in refirgerator over night. Granted, a turkey is nearly hollow by the time I got it, but it did thaw rather easily. My walk in was generally about
36F, so it thawed pretty evenly, and the brine made it pretty tasty.

For the squid, I would fill a tank with heavily salted water and put a few pumps in there with it to keep the water moving around. I would get one of them jetting at the siphon and gill openings, so that I could stick a tube in there once it thawed a little to get water moving on the inside. Might take three or four days, but at 36F it is not going to decompose in that time.

Problem is that squid tissue decays VERY fast! I've had them start to decay overnight in the fridge :yuck: Taught me never to take out more than I could dissect in a day! I was very unpopular in the lab for a bit, the aroma was unique! The only thing worse was the boiling of the sea lion heads :shock: they were fishery bycatch and the teeth had to be got at for aging! But oooohhhhh the pong!

J.

Just had a thought. Having looked at a lot of the comments people sent in to responses to news articles about this squid, there were a large number who were shocked and appalled at the way the fishermen gleefully cackled as they sadisticly tortured the poor creature to death over a period of two hours with hooks, knives, rubber hoses and boyband music :twisted: (Ok, I may be exagerating just the tiniest bit, but seriously in some cases not by much).

This leads me to ask: Just how would you go about humanely (for the purposes of this question I assume that would mean rapidly) killing a giant or colossal squid without causing to much damage to it's value as a specimen? Assume that the beasty is injured, dying, tangled etc. so that is is either motionless or almost so.

As I understand it a strike to the brain would be almost impossible (would it even be effectual?)

Perhaps an injection of copper sulphate might do the trick, although I don't know how long it would take for this to take effect. Otherwise, for this cold-water animal, a warm bath would do the trick pretty smartly.

Hello Doctor, I understand you're nuking the kraken as laid out on the beeb

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/6478801.stm

note how they've also adjusted the size on the diagram

Perhaps an injection of copper sulphate might do the trick, although I don't know how long it would take for this to take effect. Otherwise, for this cold-water animal, a warm bath would do the trick pretty smartly.

When faced with a problem, ignore the scientists and ask somebody who knows - in this case a chef.
Brine solutions depress the freezing point of water, so a -4C solution will get rid of the ice. Thanks Psqk.

Copper sulphate is good for getting rid of fungi on tomato plants

We use magnesium chloride as an anaesthetic in other molluscs, so perhaps a massive shot of this?

J

if you put it in an environment where you could raise the atmospheric pressure, (for the sake of argument, say a decompression chamber) would the specimen be harmed by the higher psi that would make the ice melt at a lower temp?

Copper sulphate is good for getting rid of fungi on tomato plants
And didymo .... and everything else I hear

nothing like a biological desert to promote that 'clean green' image...

That was my initial thought. A team of school kids armed with hair dryers.

The Meso defrosting problem reminds me of the woolly mammoth defrosting problem: what to do with a 23-ton block of permafrost with preserved mammoth inside? They used hairdryers and worked inside an ice cave. Attached is a PDF which describes the process. Clem

nothing like a biological desert to promote that 'clean green' image...
I trust that someone has relayed this analogy to them? It's a good one! Perhaps we could put the squid in the stream and let it defrost that way, and see whether that knocks out the didymo?

Why not expose the thawing carcass to "a hot august night", nothing would survive that :wink:

nothing like a biological desert to promote that 'clean green' image...

Well it would be clean, but more blue than green.

Were they expecting didymo to be more sensitive to copper sulphate than all the other stuff in the streams or something?:confused:

Colossal Squid May Be Headed for Oven (http://news.google.com/news/url?sa=T&ct=us/9-0&fd=R&url=http://www.spokesmanreview.com/ap/story.asp%3FAP_ID%3DD8O10L8O1&cid=1114713920&ei=HKQDRvrmG5H4rQOm9JHVAg)
The Spokesman Review, WA - Mar 21, 2007
Emergency crews used a backhoe to release a construction worker who was trapped beneath a concrete block Wednesday in People's Park. ...


More... (http://news.google.com/news/url?sa=T&ct=us/9-0&fd=R&url=http://www.spokesmanreview.com/ap/story.asp%3FAP_ID%3DD8O10L8O1&cid=1114713920&ei=HKQDRvrmG5H4rQOm9JHVAg)

Hi all,

I have been meaning to register with this site for a long time but never got round to it (although I tend to have a browse every day or so).

Anyway I am the curator of Cephs at the Natural History Museum (London) and when we defrosted our Architeuthis specimen we ran the mantle under cold water and then packed the arms/tentacles with plastic tubing filled with ice. This took about 3 days but as we kept any defrosted parts cold (rather than frozen) it didn't begin to rot and we were really pleased with the results (it is actually on display at the museum here in London).

Anyway - hello all again and I'm glad I've finally registered.
Jon

:welcome: Jon,

Was that the Falklands specimen? Good to have you aboard!

Cheers,
Clem

Hi Clem,

Yes it was the falklands specimen (see here for more information - [http://www.nhm.ac.uk/about-us/news/2006/feb/news_5255.html)

Jon

:welcome: Jonathan, if I'm not mistaken you also received last year's Mesonychoteuthis brachial crown, right?

Hi ob,

Yes we recieved last years Mesonychoteuthis. We have the head, arms and tentacles. The buccal crown and beak were removed (we have the buccal crown but the beak is in the US at the moment for study). The mantle was never recovered and broke off from the specimen as it was hauled aboard the boat.

The Mesonychoteuthis was the one caught in South Georgian waters (http://www.sgisland.org/pages/main/news23.htm)

We are hoping to get the specimen on display in the coming year.

J

Great! We have had some discussion here on eye morphology in M. hamiltoni, does the head of your specimen give any clue to that?

Edit: This is it, if I'm not mistaken; is the blueish oval patch to the top right corner a deflated eye, by any chance?

Well it would be clean, but more blue than green.

Were they expecting didymo to be more sensitive to copper sulphate than all the other stuff in the streams or something?:confused:

Here (http://www.stuff.co.nz/stuff/nelsonmail/4003092a6510.html) goes Cairnos. Doesn't look like they'll do it again ... although the official report is not out yet.

:welcome: Jon! I think you'll find an announcement from Te Papa in the next few days as to the most-likely procedure for defrosting the squid.

I have a very stupid question: If the carcasses of large squids are examined, is this made only on dissection-tables, or are they also sometimes placed into a container of water, where they would probably look more lifelike, because they are lesser affected by gravity there. I ask this because the appearance of squids on the air has often not much resemblance to those they have in water. Especially in very big specimens like the subadult Mesonychoteuthis some time ago, they look more like a shapeless bag of flesh, when lying on the ground, and we still don´t know how they look exactly when they are floating in the water (or is there already a still not publicized underwater shot of a living Mesonychoteuthis which we will not see untill next year or so?

Hi all,

I have been meaning to register with this site for a long time but never got round to it (although I tend to have a browse every day or so).

Anyway I am the curator of Cephs at the Natural History Museum (London) and when we defrosted our Architeuthis specimen we ran the mantle under cold water and then packed the arms/tentacles with plastic tubing filled with ice. This took about 3 days but as we kept any defrosted parts cold (rather than frozen) it didn't begin to rot and we were really pleased with the results (it is actually on display at the museum here in London).

Anyway - hello all again and I'm glad I've finally registered.
Jon

welcome Jon, ooh hang on...

:welcome:

... got to do these things properly, it was I who was emailing you asking about the Colossal earlier in the year having been on the Giant of the Deep members tour of the Architeuthis. You recommended that the squidviewers on the tour visit TONMO to get the best information on Giant and Colossal Squid. Fantastic that you've registered, the more scientists with Big Ceph experience the better. We have got a bit of a colossal squid eye fixation here so any info would be very eagerly received!

Re: Sordes question on floating squid, the Architeuthis in the London Museum of Natural History is lying at the bottom of the tank, this is not actually in water (I think it's formaldehyde) so the bouyancy may not be the same, (see attached photo I took of it) I think once they are out of the water, they are probably going to get a bit mucky when you put them back in and it probably won't look lifelike again.

Anyway, Dr Steve has the most experience with handling big squid carcasses and how they behave on the dissection table.

:welcome: Jon! We can always use more architeuthologists about...

I have a very stupid question: If the carcasses of large squids are examined, is this made only on dissection-tables, or are they also sometimes placed into a container of water, where they would probably look more lifelike, because they are lesser affected by gravity there. I ask this because the appearance of squids on the air has often not much resemblance to those they have in water. Especially in very big specimens like the subadult Mesonychoteuthis some time ago, they look more like a shapeless bag of flesh, when lying on the ground, and we still don´t know how they look exactly when they are floating in the water (or is there already a still not publicized underwater shot of a living Mesonychoteuthis which we will not see untill next year or so?


I'd wager that those who have done a lot of squid dissections find that having the animal in its natural pose in water is less important than the anatomical relationships that one can investigate by direct interaction in the air: if I pull on this, what happens, and that sort of thing... just as human coroners don't feel a need to pose the corpses realistically to investigate them, but exhibits for laypeople do communicate a lot more by posing then in "natural" positions which the trained physiologists can infer without much effort.

However, I'd expect that floating the animal in water would be useful for one application: sticking it into an MRI machine! Unfortunately, finding an MRI machine sized for our colossal friend is likely to be out of the question... I've been told that formalin is OK for MRI-related properties, though. Unfortunately, the CAT scanner :oshea: used on a whale some time back is probably not so interesting on a squid, because of the "no bones" issue... MRI, however, is great for tissue differentiation, and can be used to measure the local diffusion properties (which can trace nerves and characterize the directions of muscle fibers, at least to a limited extent). MRI is also slow, though, so I expect that in the limited time window after defrosting, it couldn't be done before the dissection, unless the order of events can be preserve, MRI, dissect without problems. Anyway, I have no idea if MRI machines that big even exist, let alone are anywhere near NZ....

I worked a bit with some MRI researchers a few years back... I was mostly just reminded of this by Sordes' question, but if there's real interest in getting this squid MRIed I might be able to ask some of the MRI microscopy folks if they have any ideas, or if they know anyone with a gianormous MRI machine anywhere in NZ... finding an appropriate machine is probably a long shot, but if you happened to find an MRI machine that's properly proportioned, I can likely dig up some nifty parameter settings and data processing methods to make the most out of it.

Firstly, :cuttlehi: Jon, great to see you online! :smile:

The examination-in-liquid idea would have some pros and cons.

Pros:
- Containment of all goo, juices, misc arms and other slidey things that lead to a tendency to slide off the table (this would be a BIG pro)
- Delay of tissue deterioration if the liquid was cooled

Cons:
- Necessity of positioning vat/bin on floor and examining in crouch (given the weight of the specimen itself, imagine that plus the weight of liquid required to submerge)
- Rapid fouling/clouding of liquid with squid juice, goo, digestive gland leakage and other fun stuff
- Difficulty of positioning viscera and other features for examination and photographing - for example, in air you can use gravity to sort of flop the gills to one side to get them out of the way; more difficult in liquid unless you pin them
- Difficulty of photographing in general, with clouded liquid and reflective liquid surface

... so, it's definitely worth thinking about, but there are also definitely some potential obstacles that need to be overcome.

Kat

Giant Cephalopod Going to Oven? (http://news.google.com/news/url?sa=T&ct=us/2-0&fd=R&url=http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/188325/giant_cephalopod_going_to_oven.html&cid=0&ei=r_UERqOsFI-OqQP4jMTVAg)
Associated Content, CO - 18 hours ago
Giant squids, just like the octopus, nautilus, and cuttlefish, are known to science as cephalopods, which is Greek for "head-foot". ...


More... (http://news.google.com/news/url?sa=T&ct=us/2-0&fd=R&url=http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/188325/giant_cephalopod_going_to_oven.html&cid=0&ei=r_UERqOsFI-OqQP4jMTVAg)

Microwave plan for colossal squid (http://news.google.com/news/url?sa=T&ct=us/4-0&fd=R&url=http://www.fishupdate.com/news/fullstory.php/aid/7057/Microwave_plan_for_colossal_squid_.html&cid=1114754704&ei=r_UERqOsFI-OqQP4jMTVAg)
Fish Update, UK - 22 hours ago
AN industrial-scale microwave oven may have to be used to defrost a colossal squid caught in the Antarctic last month, scientists say. ...


More... (http://news.google.com/news/url?sa=T&ct=us/4-0&fd=R&url=http://www.fishupdate.com/news/fullstory.php/aid/7057/Microwave_plan_for_colossal_squid_.html&cid=1114754704&ei=r_UERqOsFI-OqQP4jMTVAg)

The CT scans of Architeuthis that I've seen were pretty impressive, so I wouldn't rule it out. Monty I don't know if the whale you were referring to is the one I've in mind, but I recently found a description of a stranded neo-nate sperm whale that was CT-imaged in a machine big enough to accomodate solid-fuel rocket motors. Link below, very cool stuff. Dunno if there's an equivalent machine in the Southern Hemisphere, let alone New Zealand.

http://www.spermwhale.org/SpermWhale/spermwhaleorgV1.html

On the potential of a liquid dissection environment, would it be conducive to the use of endoscopes and other snaky examination tools? If you had really steady hands (never drank coffee ever) you might even be able to suction out various goos before they muck things up too much, or isolate them for study, i.e. hoover out the stomach to get material uncontaminated by ink, crap, etc.

Since so much of a squid mantle's interior is empty it's tricky to establish the spatial orientation of the innards. Examiners get a 2-D presentation when squid's on a table, which is unhelpful in general but more so when the subject is a cranchiid with vertically oriented internal structures. Being able to look in and see how it all hangs would be a good thing.

Sordes, that was so NOT a "very stupid question," that I'm scared to imagine what you'd consider a very smart question.

Cheers,
Clem

Well, I just thought that I am surely not the first one who had this idea and that there must be a reason why it is normally not done. I know this would have no effect on the actual anatomy, as you will find nothing new. Anyway I think it could be beneficial to reconstruct the life-appearance of an animal. If you take a super-fragile deepsea organism which consists mainly of water, you will probably have not a very good imagination how it looked alive. Those squids in formaldehyd are always very saggy looking, most probably because formaldehyd has a lesser densitiy than water.

I think you'll find an announcement from Te Papa very soon.

The reasons why (giant & colossal) squid have been examined 'on a slab' have been entirely logistical. Who has a big enough tank to examine them in water? This is one (of several) of the reasons why they're not defrosting the squid immediately. Historically we've had strong benches to lay the animals on, or the floor.

I can see it now, SCUBA-diving scientists examining the defrosting squid, armed with clipboards, waterproof paper, cameras and tweezers. Basically you could be looking at a colossal aquarium with mechanical filtration (to remove the goop).

We did a CT on a pilot whale here last year, and still have this whale frozen. These images can be found here (http://www.tonmo.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6461&highlight=pilot+whale). A little later in the thread (~ p 4 or 5) you'll find the endoscope images from a giant squid. It would be a logistical nightmare to do the same on a squid embalmed in formalin (it becomes tough) or in a vat of water/brine (simply getting access to places is rendered almost impossible).

Remember, this is a huge animal that has been folded up inside a 1.2 x 1.2m plastic box, that has been hauled up a deck and then left to lie there for a while while they figure out what to pack it in. I am sure that a few things have happened inside the animal that will effectively have destroyed much of the positional/structural/anatomical relationships. It will be damaged!

Although some have openly criticised the possibility of using a 'microwave' of sorts to defrost this brute, there is going to come a time when technology catches up, and I don't think it will be long before someone gives this a try. We've received some fantastic responses from people around the world; it has opened my eyes as to what can now be done, and in what time. There's an entire science in this .... cryogenics!

Have we all seen this (http://cameronmccormick.blogspot.com/2007/03/other-gigantic-squids.html)? Check out the size comparison chart at the end of the article; good stuff! (I am assuming it's accurate...) No bus!

He doesnt have Moroteuthis robusta, Thysanoteuthis rhombus or Lepidoteuthis grimaldii...

Moroteuthis ingens is close...

I actually wrote to him last week (tried to post a comment), but nothing has appeared online. It's pretty sensational stuff! I did wonder if he was a TONMO.com member, and if he wasn't then he sure should be.

yeah, my comment didnt show up either..

He doesnt have Moroteuthis robusta, Thysanoteuthis rhombus or Lepidoteuthis grimaldii...

Moroteuthis ingens is close...

He seems to claim that Moroteuthis robusta has been re-named to Onykia robusta

That's news to me...

one of those renaming deals:

http://www.tolweb.org/Onykia_robusta

:oops: on me.

Microwave plan for colossal squid (http://news.google.com/news/url?sa=T&ct=us/6-0&fd=R&url=http://www.fishupdate.com/news/fullstory.php/aid/7057/Microwave_plan_for_colossal_squid_.html&cid=1114763292&ei=nEkGRryCDo_SqQOzsdHQAg)
Fish Update, UK - Mar 23, 2007
AN industrial-scale microwave oven may have to be used to defrost a colossal squid caught in the Antarctic last month, scientists say. ...


More... (http://news.google.com/news/url?sa=T&ct=us/6-0&fd=R&url=http://www.fishupdate.com/news/fullstory.php/aid/7057/Microwave_plan_for_colossal_squid_.html&cid=1114763292&ei=nEkGRryCDo_SqQOzsdHQAg)

NZ scientists may microwave Colossal Squid (http://news.google.com/news/url?sa=T&ct=us/9-0&fd=R&url=http://www.iol.co.za/index.php%3Fset_id%3D1%26click_id%3D143% 26art_id%3Dnw20070322104107938C144090&cid=0&ei=nEkGRryCDo_SqQOzsdHQAg)
Independent Online, South Africa - Mar 22, 2007
Wellington - A Colossal Squid weighing nearly half a ton and believed to be the biggest ever caught is being kept on ice as scientists ponder whether to put ...


More... (http://news.google.com/news/url?sa=T&ct=us/9-0&fd=R&url=http://www.iol.co.za/index.php%3Fset_id%3D1%26click_id%3D143% 26art_id%3Dnw20070322104107938C144090&cid=0&ei=nEkGRryCDo_SqQOzsdHQAg)

There was no activity on this site since a longer time ( I visited this site already several times during the last weeks), and I suppose he just had no time to set the comments free.

There is still some debate about the Moroteuthis/Onykia synonymy (explained and discussed a little more here (http://www.tonmo.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8358&highlight=onykia+robusta)). There has been some back-and-forthing about whether to split or lump these two groups and although the Tree of Life has gone with Onykia as senior synonym, I don't think this is a closed case yet.

Colossal squid may be microwaved (http://news.google.com/news/url?sa=T&ct=us/0-0&fd=R&url=http://www.inform.kz/showarticle.php%3Flang%3Deng%26id%3D1496 16&cid=0&ei=pJgHRvqjNY_SqQOzsdHQAg)
Kazinform, Kazakhstan - 4 hours ago
KAZINFORM - A colossal squid, the stuff of ancient mariners' nightmares, is giving modern scientists a few headaches. Caught in the Antarctic by fishers in ...


More... (http://news.google.com/news/url?sa=T&ct=us/0-0&fd=R&url=http://www.inform.kz/showarticle.php%3Flang%3Deng%26id%3D1496 16&cid=0&ei=pJgHRvqjNY_SqQOzsdHQAg)

Next stop for colossal squid: the microwave? (http://news.google.com/news/url?sa=T&ct=us/7-0&fd=R&url=http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2003631686_squid23.html&cid=0&ei=pJgHRvqjNY_SqQOzsdHQAg)
Seattle Times, WA - Mar 23, 2007
WELLINGTON, New Zealand — A half-ton colossal squid, believed to be the largest ever caught, may be destined for the microwave oven. ...


More... (http://news.google.com/news/url?sa=T&ct=us/7-0&fd=R&url=http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2003631686_squid23.html&cid=0&ei=pJgHRvqjNY_SqQOzsdHQAg)

Giant squid presents problems for NZ scientists (http://news.google.com/news/url?sa=T&ct=us/8-0&fd=R&url=http://www.radioaustralia.net.au/news/stories/s1880208.htm&cid=0&ei=pJgHRvqjNY_SqQOzsdHQAg)
Radio Australia, Australia - Mar 22, 2007
A colossal squid, caught by New Zealand fishermen last month is now officially the largest ever caught, after weighing in at just under 500 kilos. ...


More... (http://news.google.com/news/url?sa=T&ct=us/8-0&fd=R&url=http://www.radioaustralia.net.au/news/stories/s1880208.htm&cid=0&ei=pJgHRvqjNY_SqQOzsdHQAg)

NZ's colossal squid to be microwaved (http://news.google.com/news/url?sa=T&ct=us/9-0&fd=R&url=http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/1/story.cfm%3Fc_id%3D1%26objectid%3D104304 35&cid=0&ei=pJgHRvqjNY_SqQOzsdHQAg)
New Zealand Herald, New Zealand - Mar 22, 2007
The colossal squid landed by New Zealand fishermen last month is now officially the largest ever caught, after weighing in at 1089lb, or about half a ton, ...


More... (http://news.google.com/news/url?sa=T&ct=us/9-0&fd=R&url=http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/1/story.cfm%3Fc_id%3D1%26objectid%3D104304 35&cid=0&ei=pJgHRvqjNY_SqQOzsdHQAg)

Colossal squid may be headed for oven (http://news.google.com/news/url?sa=T&ct=us/7-0&fd=R&url=http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp%3Fpage%3D2007%255C03%255C26% 255Cstory_26-3-2007_pg6_7&cid=0&ei=F-oIRraIJJikqgPPnZHMAg)
Daily Times, Pakistan - Mar 25, 2007
Expert Steve O'Shea said the squid had weighed in at 1089 pounds and measured 33 feet long - heavier but shorter than initial estimates of 990 lbs and 39 ...


More... (http://news.google.com/news/url?sa=T&ct=us/7-0&fd=R&url=http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp%3Fpage%3D2007%255C03%255C26% 255Cstory_26-3-2007_pg6_7&cid=0&ei=F-oIRraIJJikqgPPnZHMAg)

If these beasties are so fragile, and come apart so easily, when people examine them, how tough would they be in the ocean and how much strength could they actually exert?

If these beasties are so fragile, and come apart so easily, when people examine them, how tough would they be in the ocean and how much strength could they actually exert?

If aliens could hook a human being at the surface of the Earth and yoink them up into low-Earth orbit, how tough would a human be up there? I expect that is somewhat analogous for what happens to a sea creature when we pull them out of the supporting buoyancy of the water column.

The brachial crown is where it's at, and that does not fall apart easily. A half decayed squid, however, is a different story. As with any other squid, it's the nuchal "joint" and internal organs, not the head and mantle themselves, that are the weak spots once gravity takes over from buoyancy.

Very true, although in cranchiids (http://tolweb.org/Cranchiidae) the head is actually fused to the mantle (one of the characteristics of the family), which helps a little.

Giant Squid Defrosting Solution (http://news.google.com/news/url?sa=T&ct=us/0-0&fd=R&url=http://www.newswire.co.nz/main/viewstory.aspx%3Fstoryid%3D365896%26cati d%3D16&cid=0&ei=-94MRsjIE5LSqQPFxvjgAw)
newswire.co.nz, New Zealand - 8 hours ago
Experts have rejected ideas from the public such as using a giant microwave, and say they will defrost their colossal squid by more orthodox means. ...


More... (http://news.google.com/news/url?sa=T&ct=us/0-0&fd=R&url=http://www.newswire.co.nz/main/viewstory.aspx%3Fstoryid%3D365896%26cati d%3D16&cid=0&ei=-94MRsjIE5LSqQPFxvjgAw)

Pipsquek wins the defrost-a-squid prize!

Good thinking Pipsquek, though it sucks that it's going to take a year to get to.

Cheers!

Where's my lollipop??

More like a popsicle :wink:

:roll: Wah wah waaahhh.

Jim Anderton's Newsletter (http://news.google.com/news/url?sa=T&ct=us/6-0&fd=R&url=http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PA0704/S00188.htm&cid=0&ei=kbAcRprUNI-AsgHyq4DTCA)
Scoop.co.nz, New Zealand - 6 hours ago
The colossal squid caught by a New Zealand fishing vessel, owned by Sanford Ltd, in the Ross Sea in early February has been delivered to Te Papa. ...


More... (http://news.google.com/news/url?sa=T&ct=us/6-0&fd=R&url=http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PA0704/S00188.htm&cid=0&ei=kbAcRprUNI-AsgHyq4DTCA)

I was gonna ask about this; good to know - It is unlikely that the specimen will be unfrozen for several months as the research facility is currently undergoing renovations and a special tank will need to be designed and built to house the colossal squid.

For those in NZ :kiwiflag: there will be a doco "Antarctic encounters, Toothfish and Colossal Squid" on August 4th 5-6pm on TV3 tht includes footage of the cpture of the colossal squid.

For those in NZ :kiwiflag: there will be a doco "Antarctic encounters, Toothfish and Colossal Squid" on August 4th 5-6pm on TV3 tht includes footage of the cpture of the colossal squid.

oooooooooooooooooo! in the diary now!

J

Most interesting. If this does contain footage of the last Messie capture, then unless I am very much mistaken, I think it's the first time the footage has entered the public domain. I'd love to see this though seeing a squid speared might prove a little harrowing for some viewers and I suspect it'll be edited out.

Arrrr darn only in New Zealand. Be sure to tell us how good it was!

I've been waiting for this footage! Let's hope that some enterprising and very, very, very bad person puts it on YouTube.

Clem

:popcorn:

So...

How was "Antarctic Encounters"? Anyone? I'm dyin', here.

Clem

So...

How was "Antarctic Encounters"? Anyone? I'm dyin', here.

Clem

Would you believe I managed to miss it :banghead:

However one of the observers has a copy so we'll probably have a viewing for the whole office.

Just a passing aside -

Remember my YouTube video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7-JRz1Rwh6M) of Messie I posted back in February? I just checked it and found, to my amazement, that it has had a staggering 215,340 hits and is the 40th most watched 'Pets and Animals' video of all time on that site. There is indeed a great deal of interest in this animal out there. I made it to promote this site, so I wonder if anyone has actually joined as a result of watching it?

Has anyone seen Antarctic Encounters here yet?

Impressive! I haven't traced any sources back to YouTube, but then again, because the video is not a "link" but rather just shows the URL, it's hard to tell how many people decided to visit the site by typing it in. With that many views, I'm sure it was a decent number! Thanks again for that.

Well, I wonder why some people did not even posted more stupid comments at the video. I read there some of the most stupid comments I have even seen in the internet.

And it is really strange how religous discussions and religion and the origin of Christmas emerged in the comments of this video...

To reopen the debate: is this the first genuine shot of the eye of Mesonychoteuthis? Big, dark and googly?

Well, if we're talking about visible eyes on half-dead Mesos, I think that's the second example. Specimen in the photo below gets my vote for first (beat the 450kg monster by a few weeks).

Clem

We'll know for sure in 5 months. It sounds like a long way away, but I can assure you that this time will fly. It seems like tomorrow that we'll be dealing with it. A lot is happening in the interim, believe me.

Don't say things like that Steve, I need my sleep :smile:

Clem, you'll have to agree that both pictures suggest a very different type of anatomy, unless the lid on these eyes is sphincterlike (compare with Vampyroteuthis)

We'll know for sure in 5 months. It sounds like a long way away, but I can assure you that this time will fly. It seems like tomorrow that we'll be dealing with it. A lot is happening in the interim, believe me.

The colossal squid goes on display on 13th December
The countdown begins tomorrow: our advent calendar begins
www.tepapa.govt.nz/squid

Can beerly wait!

Can beerly wait!

Wait wait wait... you know you can do it.....

It wouldn't be the same without bald tank man!

A little birdy tells me the display looks rather fab. A little birdy also tells me that many folk are rather stressed too.

Sounds like a job for VINO-man! (need new emoticon)

I could use one of those, as well :wink: :wine: