We have our first octo! I THINK his name will be Trapper (family consent still needed) after the nick name of the crabber that collected him. He was a special request from the diver/collector who's site I webmaster and I think he/she is perfect! We are hoping Trapper is a Briarius, are almost certain he is not a mercatoris and hope he is not a Vulgaris (tank size could be a problem).

He shipped overnight FedEx after spending the weekend in his little jar in FL (I am in GA). I opted to pick him up at the local FedEx rather than have them deliver and all went well. He was relaxed white all through acclimation and only showed color when I put his little cup in the tank. During acclimation he stayed at the top of his container with his arms wrapped upward so that only the tenticles showed. The picture I posted under members tanks was the first (and only at this writing) good look I had of all of him as he realized he could leave his little chamber.

He immediately went to the closest dark hole, stayed there a few minutes then came back out and grabbed the small piece of Halmadia that is in the tank. So far he has not investigated the tank but sits almost in the open with the Halmedia held in front of him and tenticles over his head with both eyes visable.

Wish us luck!

Congratulations and welcome to Trapper!
We should be able to tell whether he's a briareus or not when we get some more photos.

Nancy

Here are his acclimation pictures but I don't expect them to help much:

http://s116.photobucket.com/albums/o6/dwhatley/Octopus/?action=view&current=1166588002.pbw

:welcome: trapper!

What are Halmedia? Can you send me a private message?

After almost two months, Trapper is still very recluse but last week he investigated the crab I had in my hand while I was trying to place it in a feeding "dish". He did not touch my hand but slid across the tank, down behind the LR and then made a sneaky crawl up the tank to check it out. Unfortunately, he did not eat take it and left it in the dish overnight.

Yesterday, after several hours and no one present, he took a crab (still only eating dead ones) dangling from an airline tube positioned next to his den. Last night he took another dead crab on the tube with my hand in the water holding the tubing (simple minds - simple pleasures ;>). I am short on crabs (Paul has promised more by Friday) so I didn't try again with my last one (seems two have "escaped") but I did put a small piece of shrimp on the tubing and he examined it, coming 90 percent out of his latest den. I am not sure if he took any to eat. He either decided he had enough interaction, wanted to eat whatever he took in private or was annoyed by the fish trying to pick at the shrimp because he slipped into his den and closed the "door".

Just before he examined the shrimp he very forcefully ejected the crab remains. The empty casing "flew" out of his den at least 6 inches up into the water column.

We are still late into the night/early morning for any kind of visitation (I make myself visible for at least an hour every morning in an attempt to get him to accept my presence) but we have started lights out in the living area for all but the seahorse tank at 9:00 and were able to feed the first crab at midnight but the shrimp interaction was somewhere around 2:00 AM. Strangely enough, he seems less concerned about my hand IN the tank than my attempts to touch the tank from the OUTSIDE.

We still don't know if he is pygmy or something else but we have ruled out Briarius. Mucktopus pointed me to some prior threads and provided a helpful comment on looking for maturity but we never see him in good light (I do think my night/red light vision is improving ;>). What has been peculiar is the parallel with the behavior of Dan's Sleipner (Trapper is definitely NOT bimac). Trapper seems to do similar things about 2 weeks after Dan reports them.

Trapper seems to do similar things about 2 weeks after Dan reports them.

Is the computer near the tank??? Maybe some late night chats on Tonmo with Sleipner??? :shock:

Cuttlegirl,

No, but I could hook up the blue tooth to the laptop. Several people have reported octos paying attention to TV's and computer screens. Unfortunately, octopuses don't seem to like each other and don't even manage to get along the way cuttlefish interact so showing Trapper another octo might make him even more recluse. Of course if Sleipner and Trapper of of opposite sex virtual visitations might be acceptable.

It looks like Trapper is nesting now. She moved into a large barnicle shell and has not left it in almost two weeks. She defends it vigoursly and will now kill a crab if I place it close to the entrance. With a bit of encouragement, she will then eat it so we are hoping she survives until the eggs hatch (assuming there are eggs and that they are viable) The timing of her leaving the ocean and going into the tank is at the far end of possibly having fertile eggs but we will have to wait and see.

I am removing (as I can catch them) the guppies and shrimp from the tank since they would find the babies an attractive food source. I am not sure if I will leave the pencil urchins in or not. They amazed me with their appetite for crab (great for clean-up) but are likely to eat any babies that survive the pelagic stage. I suspect the serpents would be just as interested in babies as food so I am still debating on the best way to attempt to raise any that hatch. I am thinking about trying to catch as many as possible and put them in breeder nets hung in the tank.

Has anyone tried using the nets for babies? I have seen cups and other plastic containers used but not nets.

I am not quite sure what to think now :confused: . Trapper has been acting "differently" for the last week so I expected a change of one kind or another. She has been brooding overly long so I did not really expect babies but I put fresh pods in the tank early last week -just in case. On March 17th I was watching her early in the morning and she seemed to "spit out" (like she does crab legs) something a little different :wink: . I woke Neal and we watched for several hours more and one more baby escaped the den, jetisoned similarly. I stayed with the tank the rest of the night but no more babies emerged. I also removed the shrimp and guppy from the tank to minimize any predation (there are still crabs, serpents, stars and pencil urchins but nothing that swims).

I caught the first two and put them in a breeder net inside the main tank. They were "missing" in the morning but reappeared last next night, still in the net. I know there are some small pods in the tank but the babies are not loose on the LR to find them so I have been trying a number of foods (including fresh hatch brine since I make it for my baby pipefish daily, roti-feast, ZooPlex and some tiny baby fish food).

Last night (roughly 24 hours after the first two were released) Trapper acted VERY stressed and was flailing her arms and breathing heavily (similar to her occasional new behavior over the last week but for a loner period of time and more exagerated). I had turned off the power head (actually a pump that sucks from under the live rock and sand to give more circulation) to minimize the turbulance in the tank (the tank has an overflow and sump for its filtration). There should have been plenty of gas exchange without the secondary pump but I turned it back on because of her excessive heavy breathing. She settled back down when the current was restored (it had been off the better part of a day) but there are still no more babies.

Has anyone had the opportunity to watch the hatchings when the mother is present? I cannot see the eggs but the mother is in a barnicle shell that faces the viewing section of the tank (this has been very fortunate since she will only eat dead crabs that are hand fed.) Is it normal for just a couple to hatch before the main group? Is her "flailing" and heavy breathing behavior an attempt to help the eggs hatch (I can't tell if she is using her funnel inside the shell when she does this) or is this a negative sign? Strickly from observation, it appears she is sealing the eggs IN rather than just keeping preditors OUT but last night she withdrew her entire mantle (first time we have seen this) for a few of seconds but nothing came out of the shell.

http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o6/dwhatley/TrapperBrooding.jpg

Reassurance and/or comments solicited :smile:

Octopus lay their eggs over a period of days so it's not too unusual to have some early squirts. There may be a clump yet to hatch. Trapper is behaving in a normal fashion for a broody octopus. The problem with her breathing is that the mantle muscle is weakening so she can't breathe as easily, she'll have been using the muscle tissue as an energy source while she wasn't feeding.

J

Jean,
She IS eating. I give her a fiddler every night and I know she eats at least some of it (it varies on how much each night and I try to collect the remains before the clean-up crew does their job so I can see how much she does eat). I started by dangling both alive and dead in front of her den using an air line tube. Over time it turns out that she will only take a dead one and prefers that I just give it to her with my hand. Since I started the hand feeding in stead of using the tube she takes the crab almost immediately (she will blow it away once until she realized that it is supper and is dead).

Also, the heavy breathing comes and goes and is not constant. My thought, with your new info on the muscle change, is that it may be the current and not the oxygen level that caused her to relax since the change was almost immediate.

Is there also a theory on the strange flailing behavior? I have seen this several times over the last week but not to the extent I saw it last night. She seemed confused, like she was searching for something but could not remember what (initially I tried giving her an addional crab thinking she was hungry but she rejected it) or as if she was being sucked into her den by her mantle and trying to pull away from the suction (which did not exist).

As I write the symptoms I am fighting the thought that I am looking at sensenance (sp) and assume it happens to both sexes even though I only see mention of it in males.

D

I have heard of female octopus feeding after brooding but it generally only extends the life by a few weeks. And yes you do get senescence in females too.

I have seen flailing in healthy octopus and it seems to be assiciated with the shedding of sucker cup skin. So it may be she's trying to deal with old skin. As for the confusion, dementia happens in other animals (not just humans, my spaniel has canine alzheimers :sad: ) so why not octopus?

I'm sorry but Trapper does sound senescent :cry:

J

We are up to 5 baby octos (fry?), I think. I definitely have 3 that are alive and seem to eat Cyclopese in a net breeder and saw aother hatch tonight (this one inked when it caught the current) but haven't seen it on the glass to attempt a catch. This hatching is certainly different from the others I have seen where one morning there are dozens of octos swimming all over the tank!

I got bold and tried a small shore shrimp when one grabbed a small bug that was floating in the net. One of the babies grabbed it and appeared to eat it but when I brought another, I saw the octopus release the in tact dead shrimp so I guess it was more of a defensive move than a preditory act.

Jean, you mentioned using a baster and that worked much better than a net (I use them on seahorse fry too) with one problem. Do you have a secret for getting them OUT of the baster? I slowly let the water level fall and he inched down to the water but it took a good 5 minutes to get the little squirt out and then he wanted to hold on to the OUTSIDE ;>).

Also, is there a known air exposure problem with them? I know with the horses there are major issues because of their swim bladder. I believe that octos don't have swim bladders but is there an issue with the skin?

Hi D,

I keep the baster full of water (& squirtling) and put the tip just under the water surface then squeeze the bulb with gentle but firm pressure until it's flat. The squirt should transfer fairly easily like that. As for exposure to air, they don't have many air cavities so decomp (no swim bladder either) isn't an issue, the skin will dry out in these wee guys quite quickly, but there is a species of Aussie octopus (I forget which one) which hunts out of water.

If the squirt holds on to the outside of the baster I usually put it next to the glass (underwater) they'll quite often shift to it, otherwise I slowly move my fingers down the baster (underwater too!) and find that the squirt will often move off rather than come in contact with my fingers.

Hope this helps

J

Trap has accepted but then expelled without eating, her daily crab both last night and tonight. I tried hand feeding her a dead shrimp (which she may have consumed at least in part) and a damaged live shrimp that she expelled.

It seems she will take almost anything I put in front of her but getting her to eat it is another story. I know she would eat varying amounts of the crabs initially but I am not sure how much she has digested over the last month. She has never fully rejected two crabs in a row before tonight and I am thinking they are becoming too much work for her.

Still no more babies. Today I located three of the 5-6 (one known dead) but there may be others in the net still alive.

Trapper is now eating dead shore shrimp gut loaded with a small amount of tetracycline (she still wants nothing to do with anything alive). These are fresh kill and not frozen. She continues to stay in her den 24/7 but will readily take her 2 shrimp (about 1 hour apart) at night. This puts her at 3 weeks from the first hatching (the six babies hatched by ones or twos over 4 a day period). Lev's female lived 5 weeks after the hatching so I am hoping Trap will still be around for a couple more. I have noticed her eyes getting more prominent which fits with a description of normal sesenence but she still can change color and I don't see any skin problems (I rarely see her mantle though).

We have 5 confirmed live and still only the one dead baby. Size varies with the 5 live but I worry that they are not growing as fast as they should. I have been feeding a combination of new hatched brine, frozen cyclopese, frozen mysis and live pods every night. There is a tiny crab in the feeder net that has not been touched. I am hesitant to put shore shrimp in quite yet but will try small live mysis (supposed to have arrived today) if my shipment arrives alive.

All 5 babies are in a breeder net I found that is almost twice the size of a normal breeder net and has both a horizontal and a verticle divider. The octos can cross the divider easily but my thinking is that they can choose to be separate. There are 4 small shells in the upper section and I think they are used during the day. Two keep to themselves while three are often within a couple of inches of each other at night. The supports for the breeder are white so it takes me about an hour to locate everyone at night but eventually, I see each of them.

Hey! That's great the babies seem to be doing well and that Trapper is still eating. I'm thinking Biddle may be some type of dwarf. She was out tonight chasing my fingers!

Carol,
I noticed that you wished someone happy birthday from you and Spike but did not include Biddle so I am glad to know she is doing well. She is just the cutest little thing. I wish you would find out what she is though. I thought there were only about 4-6 known pygmy's so it seem she should fit a description somewhere. The fact that you have her playing is a lot for a dwarf so it would be interesting to have a clue to her identity (of course finding another could prove to be impossible).

The one thing I have found with Trap is that she doesn't seem to be afraid of my fingers IN the tank. She will reach out and touch (once a night only) a finger placed on the outside but then does her go away standard Mercatoris pose and if that doesn't work, she closes her door.

Biddle is actually doing very well as long as we don't startle her. She's quick to turn black and retreat to her den. Very skittish, but has taken to trying to catch my fingers and is getting very curious. Sometimes you walk by the tank and don't see her sitting on top of the barnacles watching. Someone here had a link, I think on the meet Biddle thread with a similar looking octopus, think it was links to Roy's site. Don't think it's in the bipedal family, but she does have the striped look to her legs but no webbing, very long legs. Did you see the new pics I posted in Biddles' thread?

Carol,
I NEVER miss a Biddle (or a Fontanelle:wink:) post and particularly like to read about their behavior. I am very fond of Trap and she doesn't do much of anything! It is going to be very interesting to see if her babies interact at all (if I can keep them alive!:hmm: ).

Trap came out of her den tonight and crawled around on the tank wall for about 5 minutes (first of this behavior since brooding). I'm guessing this means we are approaching the end. She did eat tonight so I am still keeping my fingers crossed that I will have a little more time with her.

The five babies are still alive and I have added live saltwater mysis and freshwater guppy fry to their nightly feeding but don't really know what they are eating. They seem most active when I put in the cyclopese so I will continue to shave that into the net.

Trapper and 5 of the 6 babies are still alive after 5 weeks. I am still feeding a variety of small things, both dead and alive but it appears they "filter feed" with arms split, some in the "air" and the rest supporting them on the bottom so that their mouths are fully exposed to the current.

There is 1 small shore shrimp, one snail (as clean up) and one small crab in the breeder net. They have been there for 2 weeks and have not been eaten or molested (nor have they consumed any octopuses).

I add live mysis, new hatch brine or copepods along with frozen cyclopese and some very tiny baby fish food twice a night. I cut off the water circulating pump but not the main filter to sump pump all night. I am not sure which of the foods they are eating. The mysis disappear but may be escaping through the net since I have not seen anyone eat them. I continue to find pods in the macro algae so I don't know if the octos have an interest in them yet. From their behavior, I would guess that they are eating the brine and cyclopese as a main diet.

Trapper is becoming reluctant to eat her spiked shrimp but eventually takes it into her den and eats at least some of it. She seems to have some interest in exploring my fingers and I have started encouraging contact. I think she may have been showing an interest earlier but I missed the signs. My new boss is active with dog rescue and feels badly when she has a temporary ward that crys for its original owners and she can't communicate with the animal to tell it that life will be better soon. I just shake my head, laugh and tell her to imagine trying to communicate with an octopus :wink:

We have Trapper down in the List of Our Octopuses as a briareus, which is what you thought she might be at the start. Please refresh my memory - did you ever determine the species?

Nancy

Nancy,
Trapper is Mercatoris. Thanks for making the correction

Trapper has survived for 6 weeks since her first egg hatched. However, she is eating less and maybe not at all. She reaches up and takes the offered shrimp some nights (others I have to coax her) but has begun throwing it out of her den rather than eating it. I think she takes it just to make me go away :roll:

I have not done an official count on the little guys in the last couple of days because I usually have to be up at 4:00 AM to see all of them at one time and now that I have to get up at 7:30 AM, I am rarely awake at that time :shock: . I did see two of them tonight and decided that they have officially doubled in size from birth. I still don't really know what they are eating but keep putting a variety of foods in the breeder net twice a night.

I keep holding my breath but Trap is still hanging in there. She is barely eating (if at all), is even less active and her arms look noticeably thinner now but she will still to the ET touch on the tank (which may actually be a "go away" signal but I chose to call it interacting 8-) and my grandaughter will agree with my call) and will sometimes investigate my fingers when I give her her nightly shrimp. So far I have not seen the daytime death walk that I keep expecting.

The babies are stalking shore shrimp (Paul didn't have any tiny ones but Mariculture Technologies did and Phylis made sure I got tiny ones) and at least one has gotten the idea that they are food:grin: , whoo hoo!.

Today was a real confidence booster that the little guys will survive in my care. Each of the 5 babies has taken a shell in the breeder net for daytime sleeping and I am beginning to see them regularly perched at the openings (BEFORE midnight - YES!). I take a frozen cube of mysis or clam and some cyclopese and defrost it in my fingers directly over each of the shells. Tonight one of the little guys stayed fully on top of his shell while I was feeding so I lowered the frozen cube to him. Instead of pulling back into the shell, he reached up and invistigated the cube in my fingers and took pieces of the clam, never retreating to his den. I immediately repeated the process with frozen mysis and he performed this stunt a second time. Fortunately for my overfeeding zeal, the unique breeder net I found has a horizontal divider plastic grid and the excess food that does not go through the net falls below the shell dens to be consumed by my nursery clean-up crew/potential live food critters. After my excessive frozen feed session, one of the little guys went below and started harassing the shrimp :smile: .

Glad the babies are doing so well. :grin:

:rainbow: Congratulations Octomom!

Babies are growing. I haven't counted them this week but I don't see any dead and saw 3 hunting in the bottom section of the net tonight. Two were entangled but it does not appear that either is damaged.

Trapper is still hanging in there. She quit eating her injected shrimp all together last week. I had noticed her flailing her arms whenever I fed the babies but didn't realize what she was doing. She is eating the cyclopese that I feed the babies twice a night. It appears that she has been slowly reverting to easier and smaller food and now only filter feeds. I have a hard time getting enough of the cyclopese to her and she seems to be constantly hungry. I have tried putting it in a bottle to prevent all of it from going up into the water column but she won't enter the bottle or put her arm inside. She knows the food is coming out of it and will "play" with the bottle but doesn't reach or go inside. The best I have been able to do is to take a frozen chunk and get it to sink to the bottom of a clam shell. Once she discovers the loose mixture she goes wild with her arms and encourges it to float so that she can eat it. I did see her get a chunkier piece and put it in her mouth but she doesn't try to just sit on top of the shell to eat the thicker soup within.

I also noticed that one of her arms has the appearance of being shortened and I wonder if she bit off the tip trying to eat the cyclopese or a shrimp. Additionally, she has always (while in my care) had "missing" suckers on one arm (about .25 inch section). I am not positive but it looks like all the suckers are gone from where they were originally missing all the way up to the tip.

Since I started feeding the cyclopese, Trapper will grab my fingers and pull. She blows the food that I am holding (it melts quickly) and never tries to take the frozen chunk directly but I think she is tasting the residue on my fingers.

Trapper is still with me. She is more interactive with each week and it is going to be harder than I expected to see her out in the day (what I expect on her last 24-48 hours). I have found that I can get the cyclopese to her in better quantity (and somewhat less mess in the tank) by using a pipette. She now knows to expect food from it and quickly positions herself to feed when I put my hand in the tank and squeeze a small amount near her den. Every couple of days she decides to investigate my fingers (I think they "smell" like food) and will do a tug of war for a as long as a minute. She seems to do this more often if I "rearrange" the shell I use for feeding (I still put some in the shell after using the pipette). Tonight she did not pull her arms away when I touched the topside (she would withdraw her arm on prior occassions). If I hold a small block of frozen cyclopese, she still does not take it (probably the cold) but does eat it as it thaws and enters the water column. I am having difficulty trying to decide when she has had enough to eat. She eats heartily for fifteen - twenty minutes and then blows at the pipette but about ten minutes later seems to want more food. I have tried clam and krill to provide something more meaty but she only seems excited about the cyclopese.

All 5 babies are still doing well. I have started feeding them cyclopese with the pipette as well. Two and sometimes three of them will grab the end of the pipette and lift their shells an inch off the supporting grid. I do have to be careful to keep constant pressure on the squeeze bulb for fear of sucking them (or part of them) up into the pipette. I have small live shore shrimp and baby sailfin mollies in the breeder net at all times and have seen at least one catch and eat a shrimp when it came to eat the cyclopese near the octo's shell den. I am hoping they will be hunting on their own by the time the convention rolls around so that I can stock the net with shrimp for a couple of days. My son will be here to top off the tanks but goes to bed before they eat :hmm:

I think Trap is doing her final tank walk. She came out of her den tonight and started wandering the tank. She has been coming in and out during feeding for the last week but has never left her den area. Tonight she ate very well but came fully out almost right away and has not returned to her shell.

I believe she is blind or almost blind now. I tried taking a few pictures with the flash (I have only a few since I have not wanted to use the flash) and the light did not seem to effect her. She has dissapeared from view at times but will come back up the tank side if I try to find her so I think she may still have some vision.

I experimented with putting my hand in the tank where she could reach it and she explored it with her arms, eventually crawling into my hand and wandering around in it for about 5 minutes (she has never done this before). Her arms are quite thin now and doing the cork screw routine while she holds on to the tank wall. I also noticed a significant change in the strength of her grip this week and an apparent lack of sensitivity to touch on the top (non-sucker side) of her arms.

The shrimp in the baby net are starting to disappear (they have not touched the fish) so I hope the little guys can be released to the tank or at least be eating primarily live food before TONMOCON. My son will be taking care of the tanks in our absence but he does not stay up late enough for their second feeding :roll: .

Trapper is a real trooper... I'm glad she came out to interact a bit.

Trap was out this AM and is still alive but is doing the typical nerveous tank walk 24/7. She has eaten tonight but the ends of her arms are very weak and she only uses the 1/3 near the body to traverse the tank walls. The arm that I thought had lost most of its suckers turns out not to have lost them but they have shrunken so much it is hard to see them at all (the are is missing some of them but from sometime prior to tank life). Fortunately, I can't detect excessive stress (she does not pattern much at all though) and she does occassionally go exploring in the live rock so I am going to assume that there is no major pain associated with the coming end.

How many months now? You really have had great success with Trapper and it is amazing that your babies are doing well also. Any new pics of the little ones? I also commend you on your continued documentation of Trappers' life. I've followed along from the beginning and it's nice to see someone who takes the time to keep us all posted on how she is progressing and what a great tribute to such a unique animal!:smile:

Carol,
Thanks for the encouragement with the journal. I had enjoyed Lev's so much that I wanted to do something similar with Trapper. I noted that it must have some kind of following as the times viewed go up more than my own posts :grin: but even if unviewed, it helps me make myself document something weekly (something I just wouldn't do if I kept a private log).

Short :roll: recap:

Trapper arrived in Late December (the 20th I think) and her first baby hatched on March 17th. The barnicales like you have in Spikes tank were the perfect brooding den and should make it to a list of recommended tank decor. I turned the opening toward the glass once she chose it and she stayed there in the front during the entire brood and up until two days ago when she started her final walk. The position of the shell and its shape allowed me to experiment with food and I think that is partially why she has lived 10 weeks beyond expectations. Lev's Merc lived 5 weeks hidden in the tank so it may be that the Mercatoris naturally lives a little longer (especially the larger ones as Trap and Lev's were larger than many of the pygmies). Trap only hatched 6 eggs. I don't know if there were others that were abandon (Lev knew of abandoned eggs and had about 100 hatch). If small brood was all that Trapper laid, it may be another reason for her extended existence. My last thought on her longevity is emotional. Trap had at least an hour of attention from me every day since arriving. She did not interact until she was brooding (and many nights I never saw her before she started brooding but I still sat in front of the tank) but began immediately responding with out encouragement to my presence after the babies hatched. Not long after that she would even do the ET thing during the day.

I am hoping that the babies will interact early in their lives. Currently, one little guy (at least I think it is the same one) is less shy and does not immediately go back into its shell when I peek over the tank to feed. The others come back out once I start squirting Cyclopese but the one little guy just stays out. He does seem to have the best camo ability so I am not altogether sure it is a sign of familiarity. All 5 will feed on the Cyclopese at 9:00 is now and get their second feeding around midnight. Initially they would barely come out at midnight and would only be active somewhere between 3:00 and 4:00 AM so I feel I am making progress (small minds, small pleasures).

Trap is still hanging in there (almost literally) and was anxious to eat tonight. She has been hanging on to the overflow and the near by pump since last night, is very pale, has little strength but seems to be constantly hungry. I have tried to get her to take slightly larger food (tiny Krill) but the only thing that excites her is the Cyclopese. When I offer my hand and fingers, she will reach out and touch them but not let me move her and has not crawled into my hand again.

My grandchildren are here tonight and were able to see her out in the open for the first time. They understand that she is dying of old age. They were here before I got home from work and came out to the garage to tell me she was out so I know they check out that tank first when they come over.

If all 5 babies make it (so far so good) I am not sure what to do. Their tank is 45 gallons + sump - live rock and, with the exception of some nitrate stays well cycled without much effort (there is just no substitution for GOOD live rock!). I think having only the 5 to care for has been key to the success so far (and will likely be the case with Jesse's ducklings) but I don't think the tank will support all five as adults. On the other hand, I am not sure I could give one up :hmm:. Winkin' and Blinkin' have the only other tank that might be viable (both growing and looking like little rolly pollies) for one of them but I would like to see if they will breed and am not going to be able to tell male from female :razz:. Needless to say, I am playing it by ear.

I never recorded what I did with the 6th baby that crawled out of the water and died. I think I mentioned I perserved it in a strong mixture of formalin and then got help here to put it in the safer alcohol but my grand daughter was hesitent to take it to school (one of those teachers that only teaches what it in the book and has no wider horizon herself - she had no clue why Ashley brought in pictures of our Abdominalis and Leafy Sea Dragons when they were studying Australia:roll:). TONMO had a post by a father requesting info on octopuses for a young son's report (same age as my granddaughter but very different kind of teacher) and I sent it to them. It arrived just in time and was a big enough hit (Arkansas, I think) that the teacher and student showed off the critter to the other class. I got a very nice thank you note from the young man and I was delighted the little guy had a positive use.

Pictures are all but impossible. The tank is low light to begin with and red light only when the babies are out. I don't want to risk a flash and none of the family has a really low light camera. Once they are bigger than a pinky finger nail, I will try a tirpod and long exposure.

well, maybe not so short:razz:

Trapper now sits on top of the circulation pump to feed and sleeps behind it during the day. At least she is sleeping again and not displaying the anxious continuous movement of last week. She is still eating twice a night with gusto but has lost considerable weight. The ends of her arms have no gripping power and even close to the body the suckers do not stick like they did even two weekse ago.

I offered my hand again tonight and she crawled into it and was in no hurry to leave. I think she would have been content to stay there all night if I had not coaxed her back to her pump. I am wondering if something soft would be welcomed but can't quite come up with what to put in the tank.

The babies are still doing well. I need to feed less cyclopese so that they will hunt and will stop the second feeding (midnightish) after Trapper is gone.

I am going to try to preserve Trapper in Formaline and then alcohol to send to Dylan. I have discussed the idea with his mother and she feels he will enjoy having her. Any tips on this procedure are welcomed and I plan to reread Steve's instructions before I begin. The sixth baby that died preserved well but I left it in Formaline for an extended period of time (several months) before I put it in alcohol. I am hoping to complete this procedure in two or three days.

Carolina Biological makes a preservative called CaroSafe that is less toxic than alcohol. You have to be associated with a school or business to order it. I have used it as a preservative too and it works, although the liquid will become a little cloudy after a couple of months. I think that Ward's makes a comparable preservative but I can't remember the name.

I was finally able to read this entire thread and am truly touched at how much care you have given these animals. I am so grateful that you have even considered giving trapper to Dylan, and it truly does mean a lot. If there is anyway that I can help, or anything that you find you may need for the preservation, please don't hesitate to let us know (I still haven't mentioned it to him just in case:) Thank you again, and such a nice job keeping the updates going on this, I am sure that is time consuming, but also very valuable information.


tinak

I have the first octopus I was able to successfully keep probably 23 years ago, a bimac preserved in formaldehyde in my closet. I got it from my local veterinarian who my mom worked for at the time.

Once the specimen is fixed in the formalin, I would decant it and store the specimen in alcohol (which you should be able to get from a pharmacy, although good vodka works :grin:), much less toxic than the formalin. I would also seal the lid, you may be able to get the wax that's used for sealing jars of preserves which would give an effective seal to the jar, just to avoid any leakage!!!

Jean,
Thanks, I will point Tina back here if she misses the post. I had already suggested that she seal the final jar with glue or wax (I will only provide a temporary one for shipping). I also recommended plastic rather than glass if she can find something very clear.

I preserved the baby by first using a strong formaline mixture and then transferring it to alcohol BUT I did not remove the formalin or "decant" it since I didn't realize I was supposed to :oops: until Steve said something about one of his critters being soaked in saltwater to remove the formaline. Any suggestions on time in the formaline bath and/or the best way to "decant" the preserved animal would be most appreciated.

Carol,
I was debating about preserving Trapper (the Davy Jones commode was just to difficult to accept) but didn't really want her little carcus around my already over collected house. Tina gave me a great opportunity to let her continue to teach so I am feeling much better about the coming event.

Unfortunately, planning her preservation seems a bit like picking out your own coffin :neutral:

Our lab instructions!

Tissues can be left in buffered (our buffer of choice is borax)neutralized formalin for several months, but formalin hardens specimens; therefore, after fixation, longterm storage in alcohol may be better. After preservation the specimen should therefore be washed in water and transferred into ethanol for permanent storage.

For permanent liquid storage of specimens in alcohol, after fixation in 10% buffered formalin solution the specimen must be washed by keeping it in slowly flowing water for 24 hours (for instance in a box closed with gauze) for removal of formalin remnants. Then the specimen should be kept in distilled water for about 30 minutes (exchanging the water twice would be best). When the formalin is completely removed, the specimen can be transferred into 50 % alcohol for 30 minutes, then into 70% alcohol for some time. For longterm storage in a collection, a final transfer into 80% alcohol is recommended.

Steve may have different techniques.


J

Jean,
Thanks for the timing on the liquid exchange! What is my "fixing" minimum time in the Formaline before I can "rinse and hold" (American dishwaser cycle :grin:)

Trapper no longer stays in a den since she started her final walk (happily longer than expected, again). She was (actually is constantly) hungry with the lights still on so we shot a short video of her feeding. Unfortunately it is too long to upload but here is a link to my photobucket site:

http://s116.photobucket.com/albums/o6/dwhatley/Octopus/?action=view&current=FeedingCyclopeese.flv

You will note the red Cyclopeese leaving the pipette and then disappearing as Trapper "sucks" it into her mouth. One behavior we did not catch but observe frequently is Trapper using her arms to catch the particles and then transfering them to her mouth, reminiscent of a child sucking its thumb :smile:

This one came out sort of surreal :smile:

Trapper ate tonight at about 10:30. She sat in my hand for the feeding and was so weak I was sad but not surprised to find her at the bottom of the aquarium at 1:00 this morning. She lived 12 weeks - 2 days from the birth of her first hatchling. I put her in formaline and will transer her to alcohol and then send the preserved body to Dylan to further his adventure into the world of cephalopods.

Good Night Trap :cry:

:angelpus: RIP Trapper

:angelpus:RIP Trapper......What an amazing life you gave her.

:angelpus: RIP little girl... :cry:

Much respect and RIP Trapper

I've never run into reports of an octopus living so long after her eggs have hatched. It may be worth asking some of the pros (maybe posting over in the ceph science forums, or the yahoo ceph email list) if this should be documented somewhere more formally than TONMO. In addition to thinking it seems like a great honor you did Trapper by extending her time, I wonder if some of this is that no one has tried to hand-feed with a pipette at this stage before? I'm sure this will be of great interest to people in terms of pet care, but I suspect it could also be of interest to scientists studying the mechanism of senescence in cephs.

You certainly deserve a lot of credit for going as far as you possibly could for Trapper, and being the best pet-owner an octopus could hope for.

RIP Trapper.:angelpus::cry:

RIP Trapper:angelpus:

I've been following her life for so long through your detailed reports, I almost feel she was my octopus, too. We'll miss her.

D, you've shown that keeping dwarf octopuses can be interesting and that they can be more interactive than we thought. So glad you took photos and videos.

I hope you'll now keep us well informed about her children.

Nancy

Thanks everybody, I am still a little weepy and it is hard to look at her tank but I have high hopes for the little guys. I wish Lev had continued to report on hers as her journal was very helpful.

Monty, I will stick a note in the science forum about her longevity with a reference back to the journal but there are so many factors the results are not remotely scientific. I definitely think (read that IMO) that "going backwards" with the food (from adult to hatchling food) added several weeks and the pipette feeding maybe two more. The zooplankton feeding idea was not mine but was an observation of Trapper's behavior (almost a duhhh afterwards since I had had to provide easier food twice during her brood and post hatchling time). Lev's female lived 5 weeks without specialized feeding but after I observed Trapper eating the baby food that was loose in the tank I wondered if this was also true in Lev's case since the babies were also housed with the mom and may have benifitted from the floating food.

I also hope some of the readers will try the frozen Cyclop-eeze, even on healthy cephs since it seems to be an appetite stimulator and offers some variation. I have started to put a little in all my tanks now but am monitoring for any nitrate spike that might result. I have been feeding Zooplex (and an assortment of other zooplankton) with success so I am hoping the Cyclop-eeze will not have a major nitrate impact.

The zooplankton feeding idea definitely was yours, You saw her behavior and responded, it may have been obvious to you what to do, but it was still all you.

Jean,
Thanks for the timing on the liquid exchange! What is my "fixing" minimum time in the Formaline before I can "rinse and hold" (American dishwaser cycle :grin:)

Trapper is pretty small, so 24 hours ought to do it. Sorry about the delay in replying. It's been crazy here!

J

Jean,
Thanks for the post! I was afraid it would need to be much longer after reading Steve's large squid preserving procedure (I didn't inject anything either - hate needles).

I am hoping to pack her up this weekend and will try to find a good way to ensure there is no damage during the transport. Do you happen to know if bubble wrap gets sticky in alcohol? I am trying to come up with something to immobilize her.

I notice the lack of attendence and wondered if you were on vacation, finishing your thesis (finally) or just miffed because you are not going to FL with the rest of us :wink:

Trapper is here with Dylan. She was well preserved by dwhatley. Upon recieving her , she was put into a plastic (it looks like glass but it isn't) container with a metal lid. The fluid used is alcohol (91%) The container was sealed with silicon, and weighted and allowed to cure or 24 hours and is very well sealed. It seems this will be an adequate container for her. Dylan couldn't be happier to have recieved her ( I am adding pictures, the bottom one is a duplicate from my marketplace thread but I thought It was fitting for this journal as well, as Trapper is still providing joy and education after death:)

I notice the lack of attendence and wondered if you were on vacation, finishing your thesis (finally) or just miffed because you are not going to FL with the rest of us :wink:

Whats a vacation??????? :roll::wink: I've been online less because I was marking final assignments, working in the aquarium, working on that book thingy :grin: and slightly green about FL :mrgreen: Sigh........missing out on meeting a group of cephalophiles and nice weather :sad: (it's winter here! cold, damp, icy..........brrrrrrrrrr)

J

any thoughts to anyone on a neat way to decorate trappers lid??? We kind of only have one shot at this and dylan wants ARMS coming down from the lid, I thought pipe cleaners, but they are kind of tacky for this personal of an application, I thought to make the "head" out of some kind of stuffing and then covered in , well..... pantyhose, but I am a little stumped on the arms. If you are bored and have suggestions please feel free to let me know, but Dylan says her lid is "ugly" and wants to do something to it:) I have added another picture of her jar for reference to size and shape. Thanks

Try some fleece fabric instead of panty hose, it stretches and comes in some interesting prints, and sew the little arms out of that, kind of tough to get them turned, but not impossible, or don't sew them on a machine, hand sew them, and stuff the pipe cleaners down into them so you can shape them. Or you could knit icord tentacles if you can knit.

Tina,
Next time you are near a larger pet store with Dylan (do you even dare do that?) you might take a look at some of the fake corals. You might find something that he likes that could represent her habitat or even have a small octo represented.

A alternate would be to mask off the plastic, just paint the lid and use your acknowledged painting skills to draw an octo with arms

If Dylan is keen on making something himself, how about an indian, I mean octopus, head band where the mantle is the "feather". You cut, he colors. Not a permenant solution but creative and redoable on a rainy day.

Knit? What's that? Something from one of the fossils and history threads perhaps?

Olde fossils do olde tyme things.:earlyammo

Sauceyress (loved Steve's modification),

I can pick on you because I believe you are the only person here that ummm is more experienced than myself :wink:

Experienced, what a kind way to put it.......I keep telling Tony we need an old codger smiley!

So although it has been awhile. I still wanted to post this photo of Trapper and what Dylan decided to do with her lid. I didn't get a whole lot of input here besides "put glue here mom" so this was all him, and since it is his thing, I let him roll with it. Not bad for a year old, but he lacked the patience to let me come up with something better for the head, I am glad though after Denise's suggestion of feather he decided to employ them although in a different manner:) Anyways, here she is, I call her the Vegas showgirl for obvious reasons, but at least Dylan is happy with her lid now:)

I like it....way to go Dylan!

J