My name is Alex, my name on N-R is ReefApprentice for those who care. My uncle has 100 baby bimacs and is bringing me one, so I have to set-up a tank by the 25th. I have 1 year experience in saltwater, so I am past the initial learning curve, and am on to more advanced topics rather than live rock and what it is. So I am getting a tank, maybe a 45 gallon, maybe a 60 for this magnificent creature. If it is a 45, I will be using a Fluval 204, Aqua C Remora protein skimmer, as well as around 30lbs of established live rock, and 30lbs of established live sand. Since the magic day of my octos arrival is in 2 weeks, I have to get moving!

I plan to keep the tank at 71 degrees, which is as low as I can go, without using a fan. If anyone has good ideas on how to cool the tank without spending a hetfy amount of money on a chiller, lmk. I will use a regular flourescent light, run for 7 hours a day. Since this octo will only be 3mths old when I get him/her, I will feed baby nass. snails from my display, and silversides if I can. For the long term I will go to the tidepools and collect crabs and snails, and various other creatures for this tank!

I will hopefully have the tank full of LR and LS, running with a filter and skimmer by monday. Any tips or hints would be great. If you are interested in an octopus email me at radnerd(at)cox.net. Thanks, Alex

It will take your tank much longer than 2 weeks to cycle, and we recommend 3 months for it to mature for an octopus. 2 weeks just isn't enough time, and if you have a year experience, then you should know how to cycle a tank, and how long it takes. Go with the 60. Minimum for a bimac is 50.

The idea was that there is no cycle. The tanks at stores can set-up in 15 minutes, because all of the LR is established, as well as sand, and filtration. My real concern now is LR. If I get it from my established "reef" which is 78 degrees, won't most of the bacteria die if kept at 72 degrees? I am doing this because its either now or never.


Thanks,
Alex

lower the temp sloly over a period of a few days
if u have enough time...
if u dont have alot of time then kinda rush the temp drop

It doesn't take 15 minutes...read some articles...

It doesn't take 15 minutes...read some articles...

what doesnt take 15 minutes??

It doesn't take 15 minutes...read some articles...

Want to explain to me how it is different? I love how people tell me things, and there is no reason to it. Does the "really" good algae only grow in that tank. Is the water not "live"?...lol Are you saying that if I had two 50 gallon tanks next to each other, one filled with LR, and LS, and it has been established for 10 years, that I could transfer it over to the tank with new SW and it would have to cycle? Makes no sense... I don't wanna argue, just back your statements. I am getting the rock Saturday and the Octo the next Friday or Saturday, so I will start at 78 and lower it to 72 degrees over the week. This is what I am worried will cause a cycle, and in this case Brock or whatver could be right, but only in this situation. Thanks FF218 for helping me with the situation, not telling me I am dumb, its what I have and I am working with it. I am most likely going to buy a 50-60gallon tank, and build a stand this week, so it's ready for Sat, when I get the rock. I am also using the CC65 rather than AquaC, which is too much $, and when the octo dies I am getting two maroon clowns to get dirty and make babies.Will the glass cycle if I put it on a new stand?

lol
Alex

I did some "reading" and when I change my filter media next weekend, I will transfer the little balls over, so that I get even more good stuff! Even if I get a tiny ammonia cycle, he should be fine with a small amount, which I most likely wont have, and with a skimemr I should be a ok.
alex

I am also using the CC65 rather than AquaC, which is too much $, and when the octo dies .Will the glass cycle if I put it on a new stand?

lol
Alex

HAHA!! im srry but that was funny!
lol um i like my CSS65 better then my AquaC it pules out more and idk.. i just like it better

I did some "reading" and when I change my filter media next weekend, I will transfer the little balls over, so that I get even more good stuff! Even if I get a tiny ammonia cycle, he should be fine with a small amount, which I most likely wont have, and with a skimemr I should be a ok.
alex
have extra water on hand! it helped me when my nitrates got to 10ppm

Hi Zeus,

Let me apologize for the behavior of some of the other forum-goers. You have a right to ask questions without being insulted. Let me answer a few q's:

No, the water isn't "live." It does have some bacteria in it, but not much. You can't transfer water from an established tank to make your new tank established.

Think about LR as a filter material. Obviously you know that if you move a substantial amount of cured LR into a new tank there won't be much of a cycle. This works very well on reef tanks because reefs usually have a very low bioload compared to the amount of live rock. Ceph tanks usually have a bit more bioload so it can get a bit sketchy, and LR alone won't handle it in the long run.

Even for a fresh tank, establishing the nitrogen cycle only takes a few weeks. Unfortunately that isn't the only thing happening chemically in a new tank: the chemical reactions in the carbon cycle behind pH also need to come to an equilibrium based on a number of tank-specific variables: surface area for gas exchange, surface area for carbonate dissolution and temperature/salinity and thus solubility of both things. Thus, even if you transfer a complete filter (in your case live rock) from an established tank and don't have to worry about the nitrogen cycle, you still should wait a number of weeks for these other things to balance out. This is why TONMO collectively suggests 4-8 weeks even though the initial nitrogen cycle is only 3-4.

Also, I would skip the live sand. Its a rip-off. There isn't much nitrifying bacteria at all in it compared with live rock: you're essentially paying three or four times as much as regular sand just for some amphipods; and there will be plenty of amphipods in the live rock you get.

Good luck,

Dan

Hi Zeus,

Let me apologize for the behavior of some of the other forum-goers. You have a right to ask questions without being insulted. Let me answer a few q's:

No, the water isn't "live." It does have some bacteria in it, but not much. You can't transfer water from an established tank to make your new tank established.

Think about LR as a filter material. Obviously you know that if you move a substantial amount of cured LR into a new tank there won't be much of a cycle. This works very well on reef tanks because reefs usually have a very low bioload compared to the amount of live rock. Ceph tanks usually have a bit more bioload so it can get a bit sketchy, and LR alone won't handle it in the long run.

Even for a fresh tank, establishing the nitrogen cycle only takes a few weeks. Unfortunately that isn't the only thing happening chemically in a new tank: the chemical reactions in the carbon cycle behind pH also need to come to an equilibrium based on a number of tank-specific variables: surface area for gas exchange, surface area for carbonate dissolution and temperature/salinity and thus solubility of both things. Thus, even if you transfer a complete filter (in your case live rock) from an established tank and don't have to worry about the nitrogen cycle, you still should wait a number of weeks for these other things to balance out. This is why TONMO collectively suggests 4-8 weeks even though the initial nitrogen cycle is only 3-4.

Also, I would skip the live sand. Its a rip-off. There isn't much nitrifying bacteria at all in it compared with live rock: you're essentially paying three or four times as much as regular sand just for some amphipods; and there will be plenty of amphipods in the live rock you get.

Good luck,

Dan



Thank you for the thought out response. Sooo...now I am somewhat confused lol. What is your response to my tank starting in a week. Thank you for the explanation of it all, but if I were to set up a 60g, put 60g of new SW in, 50lbs of LR, and a decent amount of bioballs, some sand, and let it sit for a week, what would happen? I mean I could do that and test the water, to see if there is an ammonia spike. I think that it would be okay, because we are dealing with an extremely small animal, 3" in length, and I think by the time it reaches a size of producing a bioload which is large, the lr and such can compensate, and become effective. I hope you understood all of that. I wanted some more opinions on LR, and changing it from 78 degrees to 72 or whatever, and if I will experience a cycle because some animals can't handle that change living in the rocks.

Thanks,
Alex

I did transfer water from a previous tank into our new 55 gallon tank, but I made DAMN sure that it was all CYCLED.

Even the sand and rock had been cycled.

The octopus is going to be one of the most sensitive salt-water creatures you will ever deal with in your salt water aquarium. If you aren't new to salt-water aquariums, then you will know all about this. I would suggest waiting like I did. It is a painful experience to wait for a pet octopus, but can't you plead with your uncle to send you the octopus at a later date?

We made the mistake of introducing an octopus into our other tank thinking it would "acclimate" itself. Even if you have the top notch skimmer, filter, etc it isn't going to stay alive.

Ours is staying alive now because we put enough time and care into his well-being. We got him when he was an infant bimac. When we brought him home, we put him into a plastic container so that he would acclimate with the new environment.

It would be like someone taking you out of your bedroom and sticking you in Alaska. You wouldn't like that, would you? Especially if the person wasn't properly prepared to care for you.

I'm not saying that what you are doing is wrong, it's just that I hope you aren't paying too much for this octopus and that you are prepared for the worst outcome.

I also like the use of live sand. I have about 5 inches of it in my aquarium. (I think!) The amphipods help break down any dead material that you might have missed, giving you a much more healthier tank and a happier octo! It isn't necessary, but I would still look into it.

To each her own.

Good luck!

It's free, and I think that if I do water changes, it should all be okay. This is my only chance to get one, and he has been caring for octo's for 30 years, so I am going to follow his judgement. If he thinks its not going to work, so be it. Thank you for responding, because it gave me a gauge on the plausibility of it all. He just gave me such short notice, and my dad is being unsupportive (I am 16) and he wont put down any money and always makes excuses why we can't get that certain thing because it is bootlegged (DIY) or it is too much or whatever. Either way I think it will work out fine.
More opinions welcome.
Alex

BTW I am getting one in 2 weeks no matter what, so try and help me prepare, rather than saying I can't do it, help me do it.

As long as you have time and patience, it should all work out well. I think you are mature enough and with plenty of understanding on the care of a pet octopus. It's a shame your dad doesn't feel the same way.

What an awesome uncle! I wish my uncle raised bimacs! You are so lucky to have that source! Let me know when he starts selling them?

I just think that you should invest in live sand. It can bring the nitrates down, etc and you will have a much more healthier octo. I almost neglected to put live sand in the tank, but I think it improves it by 50%. I'm not an expert, but I learned by watching others and with my own experience.

We currently have about 40 pounds of live rock and a homemade skimmer. The skimmer that we had, currently broken, worked wonders. It had a much more powerful suction and it cleaned the tank better than the store bought skimmer. We bought one from a LFS and we souped it up so that it out-performed itself. (I think that's what killed it, we're checking the stat to see if we can save it. I think we can.)

Also, be prepared to get live crab! He may not be happy eating just frozen shrimp! Crabs provide essential nutrients for the octopus to keep him active and healthy. There are also drops that you can put in the water to decrease the rate of nitrates and nitrites. Look for it at PetCo, it's called Quickdrop and it works wonders!

It will drop your nitrate by 2 bars. I would suggest looking into this since you are getting the octopus in a week. It really does work!

Make sure that it's octo-proof. I custom built mine and I will put pictures on here someday. We even provided the octopus with a dimmer so that we can adjust how much light he receives. Octo's hate the light. (For some reason, mine is very active during the day. Strange octo!)

Invest in ALOT of live rock. Don't skimp on anything, but don't do an overkill either. I don't want you going bankrupt at age 16!

I use a cascade filter and I have had SO many people tell me that they dont' work. In actuality, it works great! I have NO amonia in my tank and it's because of the cascade!

This board is really just based on personal experience and everyone has their own point of view on how to care for an octopus. I am not an expert and I want to point that out again, I am only speaking from my experience as an octopus owner. We have had our little guy for over 3 months now. We like to keep at least 20 crab on hand every 2 weeks. We feed him frozen shrimp every other day. Sometimes we feed him every other day also.

I prepared my tank in under a week and my octopus is doing fine. I think it's only because I use already prepared salt water and I used the 3 month cycled water from my 30 gallon. It is possible. I would keep my hopes up and ask as many questions as possible. It's really a hit or miss right now.

^your water doesnt really 'cycle'
its the LR and LS that does the 'cycling'
from what I understand zeus is taking established LR from another one of his tanks..
i think it will work out fine...get the skimmer though.. (i didnt have one at first, you'd be surprised how much it pulls out!)

OMG thank you for that response lol...that helped a ton
Where do you live? He is selling the bimacs already, they are 2.5mths old right now. If you are not in picking up area, pay for shipping and its yours. What do you think about a 60g cube? How would that work out? If not, I am going to set-up a 15g temporary, and then keep looking for something within a month. Thanks,
Alex

I don't see why a 60 gallon cube wouldn't work. I've seen people put their octo's in that type of design before and everything seeme to work out just fine! Please, PLEASE get a skimmer! You can find them on eBay right now. You don't have to spend +$100!

We don't need a new octo right now, but I would like to keep your uncle in mind for when we do!

Also, I used the term "water cycle" because that is what most people recognize when we are talking about cycling. :indiffer:

LOl... im not a nubzor, i know all about the nitrogen cycle..i found a 55 gallon so thats what I have... for skimmer, what should I get? I can get a CSS65 for 60 or a AquaC Remora for 100ish? Any other opinions? I am going to get a canister filter as well, but I don't think it matters which.
Thanks alex

Thank you for the thought out response. Sooo...now I am somewhat confused lol. What is your response to my tank starting in a week. Thank you for the explanation of it all, but if I were to set up a 60g, put 60g of new SW in, 50lbs of LR, and a decent amount of bioballs, some sand, and let it sit for a week, what would happen? I mean I could do that and test the water, to see if there is an ammonia spike. I think that it would be okay, because we are dealing with an extremely small animal, 3" in length, and I think by the time it reaches a size of producing a bioload which is large, the lr and such can compensate, and become effective.

Theoretically correct. The octo is small and thus isn't a big bioload. The 50 pounds of live rock should be able to handle it and the filter colony will grow on the bioballs as the octo gets bigger. Keep in mind that this is assuming good-quality, cured and porous LR.

But as I alluded to earlier you probably will have some pH shifts and algae blooms typical of new tanks. Honestly, even though you can get away with it in that your octo will probably live; its not the best way to do things and we don't recommend it.

I hope you understood all of that. I wanted some more opinions on LR, and changing it from 78 degrees to 72 or whatever, and if I will experience a cycle because some animals can't handle that change living in the rocks.


I don't think this will be an issue, especially if you plan on bringing the temperature down over the course of a few days.

Dan

P.S - I own page 2 and 3! :p

Theoretically correct. The octo is small and thus isn't a big bioload. The 50 pounds of live rock should be able to handle it and the filter colony will grow on the bioballs as the octo gets bigger. Keep in mind that this is assuming good-quality, cured and porous LR.

But as I alluded to earlier you probably will have some pH shifts and algae blooms typical of new tanks. Honestly, even though you can get away with it in that your octo will probably live; its not the best way to do things and we don't recommend it.



I don't think this will be an issue, especially if you plan on bringing the temperature down over the course of a few days.

Dan

P.S - I own page 2 and 3! :p

Do you have any tips on HOT skimmers? I can get a Remora for 120 or a CSS65 for 60...etc

I try to avoid hang-on-back equipment at all costs. Its all garbage compared to the in-sump models.

Thanks? lol
I don't have a choice really. I am getting Aqua C Remora, which is the best HOT skimmer.

DH--I guess it's all on how you experience taking care for your Octo. If one person says that a certain skimmer works great for them, than I guess that's their choice to use that product. I don't see a problem with hang-on-back skimmers. I use one and it's worked great up until now. It's just very old. It hasn't let me down yet. It might just need a simple repair.

I'm sure insumps work great, but not all people have that choice.

Now, now, now, lets not argue. :)
So I will have:
55g Glass Tank
AquaC Remora
Fluval 304?
30lbs of LR
30lbs of LS
...?

I try to avoid hang-on-back equipment at all costs. Its all garbage compared to the in-sump models.

No offense i run a aqua c remora pro bakpak unit on a 55g and it was one of the best bakpaks out there its rated for a 125g.It pulls the darkest Skimate i have seen on a skimmer give me a day ill get you a picture i just cleaned it out.i know you dont approve of the berlin method vs wetdry from your other post.I run all my tanks by the berlin method and it can be done with weekly water changes and at least 1.5lb's live rock to 1 gallon of water and a over sized skimmer.

If you are looking for a good bakpak unit i would go for the aqua c remoa pro for 55-65 gallon tank if you have the $300 bucks to spend on it.If you dont then i would go with the new Coralife superskimmer 125 it is rated for 125g and about half the price of the remora.I have the 65 on one of my 30 gallon tanks and its a great skimmer!Jump on some of the reef forums and you will see post on its perfomance.

This post is not to start any arguments with any one :lol: its just the way i have ran my tanks for over 3 years now.

Dutch

i have to agree
I have an Aqua C (not the remora. a larger model) on my 90g. and i have a CSS 65 that used to be on my Seahorse tank and is now on my octo tank..
anyway the CSS pulls out ALOT more then the Aqua C

i know you dont approve of the berlin method vs wetdry from your other post.I run all my tanks by the berlin method and it can be done with weekly water changes and at least 1.5lb's live rock to 1 gallon of water and a over sized skimmer.

I wholeheartedly approve of the Berlin method for reefs, just not for people who want an octopus that can grow to be over a kilogram as some bimacs and briareus have. Its just about having the right tool for the job. Even though live rock does a fine job as biological filter, a wet/dry does many times better: that's why the secret to a successful Berlin reef is not have a high bioload.

We often hear the number three used to describe the amount of waste a ceph generates as a rule-of-thumb. That is, three times as much waste as a fish of equal mass. That means if you have a bimac that's about a kilogram or roughly two pounds, its creating as much waste as a fish that weighs six pounds. I've never even seen a fish that big for sale for a saltwater aquarium--it would be about the volume of a milk jug (its dimensions would be actually much larger since fish are usually laterally compressed).

Now we're trying to keep that hypothetical giant fish in aquariums ranging from 30-70 gallons. If this fish existed experts would probably recommend 300 gallons. If you're keeping small octos the Berlin method is fine, but if you have a bimac and it gets big you'd better have a quarter ton of live rock!

I'm sure insumps work great, but not all people have that choice.

I take great exception to this. We all have a choice. I set up my sump for about the cost of two months of cuttlefish food. I scrounged used parts over the course of a few months so you could rightly say that setting up the tank cost me less than keeping the cephs.

We're not entitled to keep any animal. All the time people come on and post that they want to keep a bimac in a 20 or even sometimes a 10 gallon tank. They've got plenty of reasons, maybe they want to keep it in a dorm room that has a size limit. Whatever the reason is, they have a choice whether they put an animal in a substandard environment or whether they don't buy one in the first place. Anyone in the greater aquarium hobby who says they don't have a choice is lying to themself.

Dan

At 2.5 months, the octo is still relatively small, and fragile. The pH swings will make the octopus suffer. You should really let the TANK (not the water, or rock, or sand) mature for a few months, preferably longer. Also, saying that "you're getting one in 2 weeks no matter what so don't try to stop me" isn't very clear thinking. If your uncle is willing to ship them to people who want them, why not wait and do this the correct way, and have him ship you one in a few months? Bad things happen really fast when you're impatient in this hobby...

I got a good deal on an AquaC Remora, so I am going with that, my only other option was CSS65, which is too small. I am also going to get a canister filter.

OK, guys. I deleted a couple of posts to keep this thread on track and constructive.

Zeus, it's great that you have come to TONMO for advice on the best way to get your tank set up in the limited time you have. You are getting some good responses from people who are willing to share their experience and help you out, but there are also probably a lot of experienced keepers watching this thread and not saying anything because they read 'BTW I am getting one in 2 weeks no matter what, so try and help me prepare, rather than saying I can't do it, help me do it' and either don't think you will listen to their advice or don't think that the short set-up time will be successful, no matter what good advice you get and follow.

The reason people on this thread keep saying that you should cycle your tank for longer is partly because they are hoping you will be able to delay getting your octopus, but also partly because we get new or potential ceph keepers here all the time looking for advice, and we do not want to encourage them to do things the way you are planning to do this. That doesn't mean you won't be successful, and the combined experience of your uncle and those offering you advice here probably gives you the best chance you can have. But, overall, most people starting in this hobby don't have your uncle's experienced input to help them, so we have to stress to others who read this thread later that this is not the way we recommend doing it.

Best of luck.

Sorry, didn't think I was doing anything out of line. Well, I am just working with the situation, and instead of people ragging on me, which I said not to do, I was hoping they could help me prepare, like for example: "When you transfer the filter media, try and keep it in water the whole time". This is a bad example, but I don't feel the need to thtink of a good one. lol. Advice for once I do get it is good too.
Alex

Zeus,

Congrats on entering the word of Octopus lovers. They are wonderful and while it may not be a popular oppinion here I say that enough live rock and sand plus the bio beads from your existing aquarium should put you way ahead of the game. I just set up an aquarium two months ago and the water has tested well each and every week. Years ago you had to set up your aquarium and wait, but that was due to a lack of available live rock and live sand.

Anyway I would like to welcome you. I think sometimes people are too quick to jump in and be negative. Obviously we all want to do well by our aquatic friends or we wouldn't visit a site like this. I thought we learned that lesson a few weeks ago with Dan. Thanks for sticking around I think there is something we can all learn from each other.

Thanks Indiana. More people like you would make this world a better place.

No one ragged on you. They just didn't tell you what you wanted to hear.

The certainty of the octopuses good health should come before your desire to own one. That's all everyone is getting at.

Good luck.

I told them I didn't want to hear it.

lol, you guys are getting me lost here!

hey so I think that you were just kind of ignoring some valuable information back there btw.

Anybody who didn't aggree with you was told that they were "ragging"
on you which is not true they just dont aggree with your method.

I believe the method overall is a little sketchy, and being around your age I can relate to being imaptient for something like an octopus since recently I was forced to let one go due to my bad preperation.

But at least I accepted the views of the other people and realized I had to let it go instead of saying "ok, im keeping him NO MATTER WHAT! so dont try and stop me just help me keep him alive!"

hope that helped...

~michael

It's just that I know I can do it. If it doesn't work out I have multiple places to donate it, so its not certain death. If it doesn't work out, it will go to my marine bio class.

I made the mistake of going against everyone's advice...thinking I knew it all.

My octopus DIED. This was a full grown octopus, which means that my water had to of been terrible. I checked it everyday. It doesn't matter if your water is PERFECT and it's reading that it's clear. There is going.to.be.a.cycle.

The cycle will shift the octopus, so that he is no longer acclimated. Everything that you thought was fine will be harmful to him. (And please don't correct my terms. This is the best way I can explain this.)


My octopus only lived for 2 weeks. We didn't see any warning signs.

I would suggest listening like with what I told you about how I let my water cycle for 3 months.

It didn't matter that I had the top equipment. Dan instructed me and I failed to listen to his good advice.

I don't want you to risk the life of the octopus and fail at what you are trying to accomplish at an early stage.

It doesn't matter wether or not you want to hear it. You are, and if you just ignore advice that is given to you, you are putting an innocent life at risk. You may think you can do it, but that doesn't mean you can. Don't say you know you can do it. You don't. If you really believe this when 15 people are telling you otherwise, you're trying to fool yourself. Nobody ragged on you. We were trying to help save an octopuses life, but you must not have living organisms in very high regard if you are going to hear only what you want. Do you really think an aquarium is gonna want an octopus that has been thru a tank cycle? Doubt it...it is our responsibility as aquarists to provide the best for our animals. To take them from good conditions and put them in bad is very wrong. CYCLE YOUR TANK.

^ That may sound a little rude, but please, do not delete it. We've all made impatient decisions, but to disregard experience cephalopod keepers when they are telling you the best path is very, VERY, irresponsible IMHO...

he is using cycled rocks...
and an established filter...
therefor no cycle and if any, a mini cycle

Zeus, I don't think you mentioned how far away your uncle lives. If he is fairly close and you experience problems is he close enough that he could help you and your octo out? Thirty years of experience is a lot and maybe people here would be a little happier about the situation if they knew someone with that much experience was on hand to guide you through any problems, or if worse came to worse, rescue the octo until your tank had done more cycling. I was just skimming back through this thread, and if I missed something somewhere I apologize for being redundant.

Zeus, if you have specific tank questions, why don't you start another thread under tank talk. This one has gone about as far as it can go.

(Moved my other question to your post in the Marketplace)

Nancy

Zeus, if you have specific tank questions, why
Also, what are you going to do with the 200 other bimacs your uncle is bringing down from Oregon that you're trying to sell - where will you be keeping them?

Nancy

since when is his uncle bringing 200 other bimacs??

Note: Moved my question to the Marketplace - I may have misunderstood Zeus' post. Nancy

Fishfreak,

The bacteria in the live rock and filter media still has to colonize the whole tank. Just as you snapped at me in your thread "cycling only takes a few weeks, the maturatio process takes 3 months". I think he said (could be wrong) that his uncle is selling them, and that he is just bringing him one.

this is from a mature tank......
(what causes Ph swings in a new tank??)

Brock,

In this case he is probably transplanting enough filtration (in the rock and the bioballs) that he likely won't have much of an issue with the nitrogen cycle. That's not to say he isn't moving too quickly (I think he is, but he's clearly already made the choice).

Now lets all step back for a moment and think before we post so this doesn't devolve into another slug-fest.

Dan

Dan's post seems like a good note on which to close this thread.

As I mentioned, if you have other questions, Zeus, please post them on this forum or Tank Talk, and we'll respond.

Nancy