I need halp bad! I cant get a PH buffer so I have to make my own. I hear it can be made from arm & hammer because it is sodium bicarbonate. Is this true? Are there additional ingredients needed? Is it safe to add the aquarium? Heeeeelp!!!

Thales suggestion to add oxygen is a good one, but be careful that the octopus can't get into the bubbles or get hold of the tubing.

I remember being told at the NRCC that they used something like baking soda, sodium bicarbonate, as a buffer, but I don't think it was the baking soda we buy for cooking. Baking soda from the grocery may have other additives - not sure about this one.

Nancy

Hi Tako,

What you want to use is Kalkwasser which is a solution of Calcium Hydroxide in water. This stuff, used properly, will raise your pH and the calcium level in your tank. Many aquarists have found that the cheapest way to do this is to use a product called "Pickling Lime" (used in home canning). You can get a pretty good grounding in Kalkwasser, CaOH, and pickling lime here:
http://www.simplifiedreefkeeping.com/faq/kalk.htm

I'm no expert, but I recall reading that baking soda is not a good idea because of the complexities of saltwater chemistry.

If you'd like to develop a deeper understanding of this topic you can find a number of articles here:
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=102605


Basically yours,

Alex

I cant find your tank history. Can you give me a summary so I can give you helpful advice?

I wouldn't add Kalk because you don't need the calcium and the danger of overdosing is very real.

I am not a big fan of using anything to muck with the pH in a tank because it usually ends up bouncing the levels up and down and what I think we are after is stability.

Oh- Nancy, I wanted him to add o2 to the water sample before he tested it. It seem like there is no sump so gas exchange may be part of the problem. But, without knowing the details of the tank (and I looked for a while but cant seem to find any consolidated info) I am really just taking pot shots. :smile:

I have a smaller tank where I've been trying out some of the ideas I've read about for what influences pH. I have two calibrated PinPoint monitors with continual read out on that tank, so I can see what's happening all day long. Adding a bubbler or other source of oxygen to a tank like that does raise the pH, but it's not good for an octo to have bubbles added to the tank.

Tako-Poke's pH is pretty low (even allowing for some margin of error) for an octopus so he might try water changes or whatever else works.
Akyu and W. managed to keep little Ossie in an uncycled tank until the natural end of her life, and this was done through water changes.

Nick, the iimportant thing is to closely watch your octopus. Is he still eating and behaving normally?

Nancy

You could always add the bubbles in an air lift tube that comes out of the surface of the water. All you need is airline down a bigger 'riser tube' and an air pump. As the bubbles rise in the larger tube they also draw water up and aid greatly in gas exchange. Since the bubbles don't mix in the water column, they just burst at the surface and should pose no threat to an ceph.

Definitely on the water changes - I think more for the nitrate/nitrite than the pH. I get the feeling that Nick shouldn't get caught up in the pH adjustment spiral when there seem to be more pressing matters and water changes should solve both. :smile:

I took a sample of some bubbly water (it was the closest thing to airated because I dont have an airstone) and the pH was still the same. I do have an air pump and I might try your idea for an airlift. I added baking soda and it did nothing then later that night I added amquel+ neither did anything for pH or nitrates. The only thing that the amquel did was make my octopus go crazy and ram his head into the glass! Im planning to do a water change later today, but how much should I? As for the octos behavior it is definatey different. He just sits there perched on top of a rock doing nothing. He doesnt even care that hes in broad daylight with no hiding spot! He is mostly a mix of white and brown with blue tint on the underbelly and around the gills. He hasnt eaten in two days. When I put my hand in the water for a sample he turned his coloration into somthing like that of a zebras! At least hes still aware of potential predators I guess...

Nick, what's the situation with water changes? - think you need to start that right away. Do you have fresh sea water on hand or do you need to go get it? Like Thales says, forget about everything but water changes. A water change would help your pH, too.

This doesn't sound good with your octopus. Unless you can turn this around quickly, you might consider returning him to the place where you found him.

Don't use any more Amquel - you're not using tap water and Amquel, are you?

Nancy

I would start with about a 50% water change right now, because it doesn't sound good for the octopus. After that maybe 25% daily water changes until you get things under control. I wouldn't add any more chemicals to your tank. Water changes are the way to go... maybe another member with more experience has a different suggestion, but at least a 25% change now!

Why did you add amquel? It isn't for pH or nitrates.
Please don't add anything to your tank, without a sound strategy you are just going to muck things up more.
What kind of test kit are you using to measure pH?

I let the octo go. But only until I can get a water change done. I made him an artificial cave near the shore so I can get him later. He looked so sickly. I hope he doesnt leave the cave though. I made it hard for him to try. Ill do a fifty percent change when my dad gets home. And I wont add any amquel. It says it is for getting rid of amonia nitrates and nitrites on the bottle though. Oh and im using tetra tests to measure pH.

At least he has better water quality - but does he have access to any food?

And I think you'll have to continue these water changes daily for some time.

Nancy

No food unless he escapes. Then hes surrounded by it. I only plan to keep him there for a day or less.

If the octopus is no longer in the tank, maybe you should do 100% water change and start over... it is probably your best chance. Good luck and thank you for caring enough for the octopus that you valued his/her health over keeping it in the tank.

No food unless he escapes. Then hes surrounded by it. I only plan to keep him there for a day or less.

You can't fix the tank in a day: it needs weeks or months to become stable.

Dan

Tetra test kits are not so good. Poor quality test kits can do more damage than good because they get people chasing numbers.

There are no quick fixes (except 100% water changes with aerated, aged water and that is only so so) in saltwater. Things take time, and rapid changes, even if you are changing the 'bad' water into 'good' water can often have a detrimental effect on livestock.

Don't trust labels on saltwater (or freshwater) chemicals because there are intended to sell the item, not educate the buyer. Many products make all kinds of claims - some are outright false while some only make sense if you understand the closed environment as a whole. In saltwater, I would suggest only doing water changes and not adding any chemicals until you have a good grasp of saltwater fundamentals because it is so easy for the chemicals to do more harm than good.
Amquel is not an additive, it is a water conditioner intended to condition tap water. I would bet it gummed up the octos gills, inhibiting gas exchange.
If you want to try the octo again (I doubt it will be there when you check on him) I would do a 100% waterchange - where are you getting your water?

Starting over again is good advice.

I think we all need to be aware of the special problems our younger octo keepers have. They're short on cash and have no credit cards - we can order online with no problem, they can't. That means they're restricted to whatever they can find in their LFS, and even getting to the LFS may not be so easy. Tetra kits are often carried by LFSs.

As for the test kits, Tetra is a brand many start out with. In time Nick, you can read the reviews of tests on Reef Central. For pH you may end up with a pH meter, but that needs to be calibrated once a month.

I hope we can get some answer on the seawater that Nick is using - how long can he store it - or does he have to go back to the ocean every time he needs a water change. Having it in an home tank must be different from the large quantities that circulate and is filtered in labs and breeding facilities.

Nancy

Yeah the octopus is gone so I can start over. Unfortunately my dad went fishing so i cant do any large water changes for like a month. Hes going somewhere interesting though I cant remember what it is... Its like an island or somthing where pelagic fish gather. Hes going to catch me some stuff and bring it back alive for the tank. Hopefully he will have a squid or somthing.

Perhaps it would help to spend some time keeping saltwater animals that are easier to deal with for a while to get the hang of keeping a saltwater tank. The idea of putting wild caught animals into unstable tanks and seeing if they make it seems at odds with the purposes of this site.

Dont you think it can be stabalized in a month? Plus my fish are never unhealthy. The only things I ever have trouble with is cephs. And the occasional thing sucked up by the filter... Besides, trying to keep a single squid that would have otherwise died after jumping aboard the boat in mass isnt really doing much harm. My dad just just takes the odd one and puts it in a bucket with constant waterflow and tries to bring it to me. It cant hurt to try right? Besides that the crew eats them. I think my tank is probably a better fate...

Dont you think it can be stabalized in a month? Plus my fish are never unhealthy.

Maybe, maybe not as the cycle varies from tank to tank.
I don't really know what your experience with saltwater is, but from your posts that I have read it feels like there are gaps in your understanding of a saltwater system. It is the understanding that I think is key, as there are a million ways to skin a tank that all work if the basics are understood. :smile:

I think keeping cephs is more akin to keeping corals than fish. Fish are relatively easy, cephs and corals need more. Not more equipment necessarily, but a greater depth of understanding regarding what these animals need in a captive environment.

The only things I ever have trouble with is cephs. And the occasional thing sucked up by the filter...

This is one of those things that makes me feel there are gaps. If fish have been sucked up before, I would think the danger would have been eliminated.

Besides, trying to keep a single squid that would have otherwise died after jumping aboard the boat in mass isnt really doing much harm. My dad just just takes the odd one and puts it in a bucket with constant waterflow and tries to bring it to me. It cant hurt to try right? Besides that the crew eats them. I think my tank is probably a better fate...

It depends on your perspective. Being caught and killed quickly vs being transported to a tank that is unsuitable so the animal dies over time due to starvation or injury. I really do mean that it is a matter of perspective. Is it ok to poorly treat an animal because it would have died anyway? I think that is a personal decision. I do need to add that I have done my share of horrible things to animals as I was growing up and learning. I am now ashamed of many of them. :smile:

Maybe, maybe not as the cycle varies from tank to tank.
I don't really know what your experience with saltwater is, but from your posts that I have read it feels like there are gaps in your understanding of a saltwater system. It is the understanding that I think is key, as there are a million ways to skin a tank that all work if the basics are understood. :smile:

I think keeping cephs is more akin to keeping corals than fish. Fish are relatively easy, cephs and corals need more. Not more equipment necessarily, but a greater depth of understanding regarding what these animals need in a captive environment.



This is one of those things that makes me feel there are gaps. If fish have been sucked up before, I would think the danger would have been eliminated.



It depends on your perspective. Being caught and killed quickly vs being transported to a tank that is unsuitable so the animal dies over time due to starvation or injury. I really do mean that it is a matter of perspective. Is it ok to poorly treat an animal because it would have died anyway? I think that is a personal decision. I do need to add that I have done my share of horrible things to animals as I was growing up and learning. I am now ashamed of many of them. :smile:

So tell me... How does one go about aquiring this "understanding?" Could you reccomend me some books? Because your right, my understanding of aquariums is very limited. Primitive at best... But im working on it, and I could use some guidence.

As for those fish that got sucked up, I refuse to take the blame. In fact the first time it happened it was my seahare. I managed to save it and then it just went and did it again! It deliberatly stuck its head in the filter! I guess that comes along with the territory of not having a brain lol... :roll: Plus making the filter seahare proof would mean diminishing the quality of its filtration. Im not going to worry about it now that the stupid one kicked the bucket.

And lastly, I do beleive that dying my way is better than being killed the crews way... Hooks, cleavers, and boiling pots... Also my dad feeds them crabs. He says they eat them and each other lol. They usually die from bubbles in his care. Is that painfull?

Originally posted by Tako Poke In fact the first time it happened it was my seahare. I managed to save it and then it just went and did it again! It deliberatly stuck its head in the filter! I guess that comes along with the territory of not having a brain lol...

Well, sea hares do have a bit of a brain... but mine had the same obsession with being sucked into the pump, only mine would crawl over the overflow, down into the sump and over to the intake of the pump. Many survived this death-defying act and I eventually covered the overflow with frame made of pvc and window screen. The sea hares would still crawl over the overflow and then hang out until I rescued them...

Are you near the Waikiki Aquarium? They have a lot of great educational programs. I think you have to be 18 to volunteer, but that would be a great way to learn about aquariums!

Well, sea hares do have a bit of a brain... but mine had the same obsession with being sucked into the pump, only mine would crawl over the overflow, down into the sump and over to the intake of the pump. Many survived this death-defying act and I eventually covered the overflow with frame made of pvc and window screen. The sea hares would still crawl over the overflow and then hang out until I rescued them...

Are you near the Waikiki Aquarium? They have a lot of great educational programs. I think you have to be 18 to volunteer, but that would be a great way to learn about aquariums!

:lol: Seahares are so strange... Im on the opposite side of the island. But I go to school over in town. Hey heres an idea! Since I really need a job maybe they would hire me to mop floors after school or somthing! Clean things and hang out in the aquarium! Now theres a job I wouldnt mind...

So tell me... How does one go about aquiring this "understanding?" Could you reccomend me some books? Because your right, my understanding of aquariums is very limited. Primitive at best... But im working on it, and I could use some guidence.

Great! IMO, the best way is to plan out a tank that will house some hardier animals, and then move up. The hardest part is taking your time.

Online forums like TONMO and www.reefs.org are great places to get info. I suggest head over the reefs.org and browse the new reefers section. You will get a whole lot of questions answered just by reading what other new aquarists are asking. The only reason I recommend a reef keeping site over TONMO for newbie info is because there are many more people there in the same situation as you are in than there are here. (Don't worry Tony - I send people from RDO to TONMO all the time!)
I think the best books are 'The Reef Aquarium' vol. 1, 2 and 3. In fact one of the authors is at the Waikiki Aquarium. Perhaps if you went there, they may have a copy you can look at. They are pretty expensive, but they are one of the only books that I like to recommend.

As for those fish that got sucked up, I refuse to take the blame. In fact the first time it happened it was my seahare. I managed to save it and then it just went and did it again! It deliberatly stuck its head in the filter! I guess that comes along with the territory of not having a brain lol... :roll: Plus making the filter seahare proof would mean diminishing the quality of its filtration. Im not going to worry about it now that the stupid one kicked the bucket.

Actually, its pretty easy to critter proof a filter. Get a filter sponge, like the ones used for Aquaclear hang on filters, cut it in the middle of one of the ends and shove it over the intake of the filter. Then rinse it once a week. This kind of prevention is doubly important for soft bodied creatures like seahares and cephs.
I believe that whatever happens to animals that we choose to remove from the wild and put put in our glass boxes is completely our responsibility.

And lastly, I do beleive that dying my way is better than being killed the crews way... Hooks, cleavers, and boiling pots... Also my dad feeds them crabs. He says they eat them and each other lol. They usually die from bubbles in his care. Is that painfull?

As I said, that is something for everyone to decide for themselves. :smile:

Great! IMO, the best way is to plan out a tank that will house some hardier animals, and then move up. The hardest part is taking your time.

Online forums like TONMO and www.reefs.org are great places to get info. I suggest head over the reefs.org and browse the new reefers section. You will get a whole lot of questions answered just by reading what other new aquarists are asking. The only reason I recommend a reef keeping site over TONMO for newbie info is because there are many more people there in the same situation as you are in than there are here. (Don't worry Tony - I send people from RDO to TONMO all the time!)
I think the best books are 'The Reef Aquarium' vol. 1, 2 and 3. In fact one of the authors is at the Waikiki Aquarium. Perhaps if you went there, they may have a copy you can look at. They are pretty expensive, but they are one of the only books that I like to recommend.



Actually, its pretty easy to critter proof a filter. Get a filter sponge, like the ones used for Aquaclear hang on filters, cut it in the middle of one of the ends and shove it over the intake of the filter. Then rinse it once a week. This kind of prevention is doubly important for soft bodied creatures like seahares and cephs.
I believe that whatever happens to animals that we choose to remove from the wild and put put in our glass boxes is completely our responsibility.



As I said, that is something for everyone to decide for themselves. :smile:

Great! Ill head on over to the library tomorow and see if I can get them there. Ill also try this new forum. Hopefully with these tools Ill be adept in the basics of aquariums soon.
-Thanks Nick

Oh - and ask here! To make responses more useful, you might want to try to be very specific with each thread, don't assume that people have read all your threads, and try to give as much information as you can.

Try to get any saltwater books from the library - but before you believe what they say, ask if the books are considered 'good' first!

ROCK ON!

:smile:

Oh - and ask here! To make responses more useful, you might want to try to be very specific with each thread, don't assume that people have read all your threads, and try to give as much information as you can.

Try to get any saltwater books from the library - but before you believe what they say, ask if the books are considered 'good' first!

ROCK ON!

:smile:

I want to applaud this thread's positive direction... and add that there are a number of folks here trying to learn the ropes, so it may sometimes be good to talk with each other, answer each others' questions, and whatnot, since sometimes it's easier to talk with someone else who's learning now a bit before asking the experts. Not that the experts don't want to help, but sometimes they may be frustrated trying to explain the basics all the time, and I know several of you are trying to learn the ins and outs of tank setup and water parameters right now!

Also, looking for older threads of people who were in the same place some time ago can sometimes lead to insights and answers, too!

ROCK ON indeed!