hi, I have been with this site for almost a year now and have done constant research on keeping saltwater tanks. Thats why I was deciding to create one of my own that perhaps later down the line could be used for a cephalapod.

Heres my problem, I have been researching a long time, but its hard to find sites that get to the point on setting up a saltwater tank. Things like nitrate and pH and all these other things come up and I was wondering if any of you could help me simplify setting up an 18g saltwater tank. Just so I could keep some local fish in (I live in southern CA), not for a fancy reef tank. Something a little more simple.

I know its alot to ask so if anybody could help I would be delighted! Thanks!

~Michael

THe best thing is to buy a book on setting up a saltwater tank. You can also look at a site like About Saltwater.com. We have a lot of the information here in the articles, but it would be helpful to have a book to work from - even something simple, like Saltwater Aquariiums for Dummies. Then you can reread sections as you need to . You'll outgrow this book eventually, but it's good to start with. Getting a solid background in keeping a salt water tank will be a big help when it comes to keeping an octo.

You know that this size tank will be too small for a bimac - but it's a great size to learn on. You'll learn about live rock and water chemistry and all the other important things. One piece of advice - emphasize your invertibrates. Crabs and featherdusters and brittlestars can be very interesting.

Nancy

thank you, Ill definetley look into some books. I have read alot and think I have come up with a plan that you can feel free to criticize:

i will fill my empty tank with 2 inches of sand from my local beach. then I will add live rock. after that I will fill my tank with already seeded water from the ocean. I will use a bio-filter/protein skimmer hang on external filter for all the filration and buy a parameter to measure salinity. I will use a flourescent strip light fixture on the top of the tank and cycle the tank for 3 months with a couple damsels. then I will start adding some local invertebraes and so forth.

does that sound right? thank you tremendously for your help!

~michael

Marineboy,

I think it's great that you are willing to take the plunge with a saltwater tank. A couple of comments... you will need a permit from the Department of Fish and Game to collect local marine animals from the tidepool. Also, you may need a chiller (which is expensive) to keep the water at the temperature needed for local animals in the San Diego area. Damsels are a warm water species so they will probably be fine to cycle a warm water aquarium, but you will need something that will tolerate cold water to cycle for local animals...

I do have a permit and a saltwater fishing liscense.

a chiller? is there any other soltion? that is definetley not an option for me. the idea of having local animals was just a thought, maybe i will start off with a regular fish tank instead.

Well,

It seems like the ocean temperature in San Diego hovers around 58-68 F. I kept local marine life for 14 years in Long Beach and I always had a chiller. I kept the temperature at a constant 65 F. Any time the temperature went above 70 (like when my chiller broke), I lost animals. I kept a back-up chiller, because during the hot months, the chiller was more likely to break, and I could send it out for repair and not have to worry about the animals dying.

If you have another way of keeping your water temperature in this range, then you will be fine.

What kind of animals can you collect with your permit?

It might be easier to keep a reef tank at first. You don't have to go for expensive corals that take a lot of light.

I'd like to hear what others say, but I think you'd be better buying live sand (or regular sand getting a handful of sand to seed it from your LFS or someone's mature tank). The same for water - many of the labs that keep salt water animals bring in that water from further out in the ocean. It could be contaminated close to sure - and also, it's well filtered before it gets to the tank. So you could buy RO/DI water and add salt.

But I wouln't rule out what you have in mind. It's just that, as pointed out, you need colder water to make it work.

Nancy

You could always use ice. As wierd as it sound it works. As long as your house is air conditioned and has a constant supply of ice you should be fine. Also, getting sand from the beach isnt good but If you go at low tide and go in a few feet in the water you should have good live sand.There is live rock in southern California so you could collect it and if it was brought home in reasonable time and put in the tank there would be little to no die off meaning he wouldent have to cycle his tank. If you went out and picked up a small air conditinor you could keep a tank under 70.

just a few thoughts,

Tom

Clownfish,

You do mean put the ice in a bag first, right??? You could also use those "blue ice" packs, but you have to have a large supply of them and keep replacing them in the tank. That is a lot of maintenance to keep the temperature down during the summer in San Diego...

We had a big discussion about ice a couple of years ago.

It's not practical for regular cooling, but may be useful in an emergency (power failure).

Ice should not be added directly to the tank or sump - if you should do this anyway (and I'm assuming only a cube or two to the sump), please use RO/DI water to make the ice. The preferred way is to freeze small coke bottles full of water and float them in the sump.

One TONMO.com member stretched a broad elastic band around her tank and tucked in those blue cold packs (frozen) to reduce heat. Since these packs can leak, they should never be put directly in the tank or sump.

Here are some effective methods of lowering the temperature of your tank: fan blowing over the sump (requires more topping off), make sure your lights aren't too bright, use the protein skimer only at night (or when your ceph inks!), and perhaps the best method - turn the house air conditioning down to a lower temperature.

These methods may enable you get reduce the temperature from 78 down to 72 or 73 - not as much as a chiller could.

Nancy

how much does the average chiller cost? Its only an 18g tank so it shouldn't be to hard to cool down right? I could keep it in the garage were it is usually nice and cool and keep ice as a back-up. I kept a bimac (it was for Dan) for a couple weeks in only a 10g which I would replace 20% of the water with fresh cold water weekly. remember, this isn't for an octo and he lasted a long time in that set-up

http://www.marinedepot.com/aquarium_chillers_coolworks_iceprobe.asp ?CartId=

will that work?

Just a thought, and I don't know whether this would work or not. What if you collected your animals from tide pools - it must get quite hot in those pools. I remember talking with Jimmy D. of Octopets about this.

Then, you could keep your tank in the garage, out of the sun, and even use a small fan on it. I wouldn't ever put water of a much different temperature in a tank, even to cool it down. Slow changes are better.

See what sort of a temp range you get -probably too hot for a bimac but might be fine for some other invertebrates.

Nancy

I am looking at getting a bat star and possibly a brittle star for my tank. I went snorkeling yesterday on a local reef and saw an assortment of fishes that would be perfect for my tank.

can tidepool sculpins be kept in tanks? They are the perfect fish for my tank! That would be great if I could house one properly because they are very interesting to look at and also very common on the reef.

I have kept bat stars (Patira miniata), ochre stars (Pisaster ochraceus), california mussels (Mytilus californianus), purple sea urchins (Stronglocentrotus purpuratus), red urchins (Stronglocentrotus franciscanus), hermit crabs, giant keyhole limpets (Megathura crenulata), sea hares (Aplysia californianus), giant green anemones (Anthopleura xanthogrammica) and probably many more little things like barnacles and sea spiders. I had a converted lobster tank with a sump, so my tank was 100+ gallons.

When the temperature got around 70, I would start losing animals like the red urchins and the giant keyhole limpets. The sea stars are prone to getting some kind of infection that makes their arms fall off. Some of these tidepool animals live deeper in the tidal zone so they would be less affected by the heat because they would be in deeper water. I lost fewer animals once I installed a protein skimmer...

I think a tidepool sculpin would do fine in your tank, they don't get very big and live on the bottom.

What kinds of animals does your permit cover?

i haven't checked the guidelines on marine species but I have collected reptiles on the permit. I can find a link for you if thats what your looking for. anyway, if all those animals need super cold water, than maybe I shouldn't use a california themed tank...

Why not try some sea squirts? Colonial forms such as Botryllids will certainly brighten up your tank. :sun:

Originally posted by Marineboy
i haven't checked the guidelines on marine species but I have collected reptiles on the permit.

As far as I know, the permit from Department of Fish and Game is species specific, that is you have to apply for the permit and request how many of each type of animal you will be capturing. I had to fill out a list of each animal and how many I captured and what happened to each animal (put into captivity, sacraficed, or died) and send it back to the DFG every two years to reapply for the permit. You are also supposed to only collect in non-protected areas, the DFG has a map of areas they allow you to collect in. If you need more info, you can PM me and I will help you.

I don't see the harm in trying a few local species in your tanks. Hermit crabs and sea anemones (if you can get them off the rocks, ha, ha...) would be fine in a higher temperature range and probably the sculpin too. Purple urchins would probably be OK...

As far as I know, the permit from Department of Fish and Game is species specific, that is you have to apply for the permit and request how many of each type of animal you will be capturing. I had to fill out a list of each animal and how many I captured and what happened to each animal (put into captivity, sacraficed, or died) and send it back to the DFG every two years to reapply for the permit. You are also supposed to only collect in non-protected areas, the DFG has a map of areas they allow you to collect in. If you need more info, you can PM me and I will help you.

When I was trying to track down regulations, I was told by a biologist at the California Department of Fish and Game that if you were collecting for your own personal use that you could use a sport fishing license. That wouldn't allow collecting animals for sale or trade, and probably not for institutional use, but he said that collecting animals for your own personal tank it was OK (subject to sport fishing quotas, size limits, and other such regulations). I think that would get around the "specific species collection paperwork" as long as you looked up what restrications there were for sport fishing of each species you wanted to collect. I expect that most tidepool animals can be taken in small quantities without any trouble, although I know the sea urchin population was hit hard by the demand for uni sushi, so they may be restricted in some way. And lobsters and abalone are heavily regulated, but you probably wouldn't want them in your tank anyway.

How would one collect anemones without hurting them? Is there a way to get them off the rocks, or is the only way to find one that's clinging to a piece of rock you can take?

Originally posted by Monty How would one collect anemones without hurting them? Is there a way to get them off the rocks, or is the only way to find one that's clinging to a piece of rock you can take?

If you can find one clinging to a small rock, that is the best way. If not, then you hope to find one clinging to a smooth rock, then get your fingernails under one side and carefully pry them off of the rock the whole way around the suction cup.

It doesn't make sense to me that tidal invertebrates can be collected with a fishing license, but the DFG official is probably right.

ok, my tank is half full with water and has inch of live sand, and two pieces of live rock which has all come from the reef. the protein skimmer is going to be added.

Are you using ocean water or making your own?

ocean water. Hey is it ok to add old shells I found on the reef? Everything on them has died (all the algae and so forth) but they still would look nice in the tank. I cleaned them out with boiling water to just in case.

The shells should be fine.

ok, thank you. I have to small sea snails in there that I haven't classified yet and they seem to do fine.

FYI, you don't have to cycle a tank with live critters. You can cycle a tank by throwing in a piece of chopped up shrimp. It will go through the cycle process and you should be fine without risking losing any fish.

Thank you everyone who has posted on this thread! My tank has been up and running FANTASTICLY for almost two weeks now. I have 6 or 7 small green hermit crabs, 2 small giant green anenomes, 6 pieces of live rock, one small unidentified minnow, and a Sea Clone protein skimmer. Nothing has died so far and the tank is staying extremely clear and clean. the only issue is getting the tank cool in the middle of this heat wave (im sweating as i type this...) the floating ice is the technique its running on right now but when I gain enough money I am going to buy a chiller I like that has a good price (200$).

Congrats! You're certainly inspiring me to think about tanks more seriously, too. I want to wait until I have time and money to "do it right," and you're certainly being a great example for how that can work... hope it continues to go well!

thanks, and I hope the best for you. OH, and the fish has been identified as a young opal eye (which means he is eventually going to outgrow the tank)

tank update: 1 sculpin, 5 opal eyes, 3 red crabs, 1 shore crab, 2 giant green or aggregating annenomes (cant tell difference), and 7 small hermit crabs.

Is there a way to add a california mussels? can you just take them pulll them right off the rocks and set them in the tank? or do I have to find a small rock with some on it like before? Thanks,

Michael

You can kind of twist mussels to get them off of the rock. You might want to rethink adding mussels because when they die in your tank, it will smell really bad. I kept mussels for the sea stars to eat, but I had a really big tank, a chiller and a good flow rate.

Ok then, I am pretty sure I will think twice about the mussels. The only reason I wanted them was to create as much of a realistic environment that they would naturally have as possible.

I am now keeping the tank at a stable temerature of 72 degrees (thanks to my hard work and families support) with absolutely no losses. The protein skimmer is strong enough to create a stable current and also keeps the water oxygenated and cool.

I was wondering, could I keep an octo in there for a little? If I caught a small one it would be thrilling to keep one for just a week and see what he would do (probably eat all my fish though...). The opal eyes have formed a school and now explore and eat and play with each other. I wonder how they can be so happy? Is it that all the animals I catch now have no more natural predators and can live safely? I LOVE MY TANK!!! :)

tank update: 2 giant green or aggregating annenomes (cant tell difference),

Is there a way to add a california mussels?

Hi Michael,

There are four common species of Anthopleura anemones and, with the exception of the Giant Green Anemone (A. xanthogrammica) it can be a bit tricky to tell them apart.

1. A. xanthogrammica - As the common name implies, these animals are large and green. I've never seen one that had any other color on it and I can't recall seeing one that was smaller than about two inches across the column and three or four inches across the entire face (I have no idea why I've never seen a 'baby'). Also, although it's pretty common to see them living fairly close to each other, they don't form clones or colonies the way that A. elegantissima does. Pretty common in tidepools in areas exposed to a good deal of wave action.

2. A. elegantissima - AKA the Aggregating Anemone - These tend to be fairly small individuals (rarely over an inch in diameter) that reproduce via fission into large aggregations referred to as 'clones'. They are normally green with purple or lavender tips to their tentacles. These guys are very common in the intertidal zone - sometimes fairly high into zone 2 if there are areas that stay damp.

3. A. sola - Once thought to be an antisocial member of the A. elegantissima species, this has recently been reclassified as a separate or possibly sub-species. A. sola looks pretty much like a larger & solitary version of A. elegantissima. I could be wrong, but I believe that these are more likely to be found sub-tidally.

4. A. artemsia - The Moonglow Anemone - Quite similar to A. sola in overall appearance except that while A. sola (and the other Anthopleuras) are normally found on bare rock, A. artemsia prefers to attach to a rock that is buried in sand such that only the anemone's 'face' is exposed.

The thing about Anthopleura that distinguishes the genus from the other anemones on the west coast is that they harbor zooanthellae very much like the tropical cnidarians that are so popular in reef aquariums. As such, they need some light to thrive. They can get by with a good deal less than a truly tropical species, but they do need some.

Anthopleuras mainly eat small crustaceans (copepods & amphipods) in the wild although A. xanthogrammica also takes mussels that have been torn lose by the surf. Any of the four species should do OK on a variety of chopped meaty foods like shrimp, fish, and bivalves.

I wouldn't put mussels in your tank. It's too small to generate any significant amount of the planktonic foods that a mussel needs. You could get around that problem by using a products like DT's phytoplankton but it would get a bit expensive. OTOH: A few empty mussel shells would be welcomed by your smaller animals as an excellent hiding place.

Identificationally yours,

Alex

Well, I know this is a ceph forum, but I Just started a Seahorse tank about a month ago. It was amazing when I finally got them. It took forever to get the tank stable. It took like 2 months, but at least I know they're happy and healthy.