We've been very worried about Ossie the last few weeks. We had figured it was getting near the end of her life but we were trying really hard to get her to be responsive to us.

She had taken to being in her den 95% of the time, only sneaking out after we'd been asleep to get her food. And as far as we could tell, she had gone down to eating once every two-three nights.

This morning I woke up and went to feed the green chromis in Ossie's tank when I saw shapes moving about in the water. Turned on the light and I saw pinkish-purply teeny blobs in the water as well as clear ones.

"Ossie gave birth! Ossie gave birth!" I screamed to get W. out of bed.

We have about 30 baby octopus in our teeny tank. We're expecting this to be the first batch from what we've read here on the boards.

We're panicking (of course) and I'm not sure what we're going to do about it. (The insurance adjuster is supposed to take a look at our damaged condo and hopefully in a few weeks, we'll be able to set up our large tank but still.... we've such limited options right now.

So... ANY advice will be appreciated.

Also, any of you in the Bay Area, California wants to try rearing a couple of baby mercatoris, send me a pm over the next two or three days. Or try emailing me. We're watching the babies turn pink, then translucent right now. Please help us try and save some.

Sharon

Congratulations! I don't know much about O. mercatoris: do the babies look like tiny but fully-formed adults or are they planktonic larvae?

Dan

They are fully formed octopus with mantle, eight legs, two LARGE eyes and I think I can see their brain? Something milky colored inside the mantles. We can count about 10-15 of them but don't know if any are hiding in the rocks or whether another batch would release tonight.

They are SO cute! One keeps swimming in circles (somewhat jerkily but I guess that's due to their propulsion system). Others are exploring the glass where a bunch of copepods are hanging out. Still others are just swimming near the surface, bobbing happily away.

I turned down the airflow so they're not struggling to get about but there's still circulation. We need to be at work today so am hoping Ossie doesn't die while we're out. I know that we have to remove her body immediately since we don't have a filtration system on the tank.

I've also a question about water changes. Before, I was just using a gallon jug and filling it up by submerging it in the tank. However, this way, some of the babies might get sucked in. Any other suggestions on how to do water changes?

Again, I reiterate: Anyone in the Bay Area, California who wants to raise a baby O. Mercatoris, please contact me immediately by PM or email.

Thanks.

If i was any where near the west coast i could take a couple but im an East coaster
sorry :(

If I had a tank ready I would be on my way down there to collect one or two from you, but as it is, I have nothing. :neutral:

I wish you the best of luck in rearing those babies!

Green with envy!
Chris

Sounds fantastic! If I didn't have cuttles now I would take a few.

You might consider buying two or three net breeders that hang inside the tank rim. You could put a few babies in each and have direct supervision on them. The rest will probably disappear into the rockwork and you won't be sure how many, if any, survived.

Righty has some good tips about collecting small crustaceans for ceph food in the bay area, otherwise you could order mysids and 'pods from Sach's.

Dan

I would love to see pics! I am also an east coaster. Wish I could help.

Ill take a few to play with (Im in san francisco)...My baby cuttle section is free at the moment. When they get larger, my Friend has a large tank that would be available for them.

Ill need to octo proof the cuttle section first...


I would take DHyslop's advise on the breeder net idea. You will need to seal the tops though. Also, are you familiar with collecting pods in the area?

Thanks Paradox! We are right off the 580 fwy so just a hop skip and jump from S.F. I'll IM you my details.

Any other takers?

congradulations on the babies!

If I had more experiance with salt water (this would be my first tank...), I would take some, probably, but I'm too afraid that they would die almost immediatly.

Does anyone know how old they are when they start getting cannible and intolerant of others in the same tank? Ive kept octos before, but never more then 1 at a time nor from a hatchling...

thanks cttlefish...

As for the attempt - first off, Ossie is our first octo and trust us, we've made so many mistakes... but apparently this is a pretty hardy species.

Secondly, these babies are going to die almost guaranteed. We don't have the space to take care of them (they're in a 5.5 gallon tank right now which is why I'm trying like crazy to get them out of here) and we're hoping one survives for ourselves.

In the meantime, anyone who can take a couple of them will probably give them a better show of surviving than we can.

We're also going to try contacting the S.F. aquarium and the Monterey Bay Aquarium to see if they'd like any.

I would take DHyslop's advise on the breeder net idea. You will need to seal the tops though. Also, are you familiar with collecting pods in the area?

Perhaps using some hot-melt glue to secure the aluminum brackets to the outer plastic trim in such a way that it would keep the top of the net against the glass lid? I apologize for the tangent, its just an idea I had :)

Dan

Hmm... or just cut the netting off to create a pocket that can float in the water... or just hot glue the opening to the glass after cutting the netting?

whoops...the plan didn't fly too well with my parents.:neutral:
oh well.

so sorry to hear that, Cttlefish.

Right now, about 12 of them are spoken for. The rest will be going to Dr. Caldwell's lab unless some of you want them.

I've spoken to New Alameda Aquatics where Righty is associated with and they are willing to ship out to any of you for $50 overnight (this includes the box and everything).

I don't want to take care of the shipping so I'll be dropping off the babies to New Aquatics and letting them take care of it on Wed. July 5th.

For those of you who aren't familiar with Ossie's tale, this species is VERY nocturnal and secretive. Almost every time we've had interaction with Ossie is recorded here on Tonmo. If you're looking for a species to interact with you, this isn't the species for you. However, if you don't mind that (like we didn't - we feel our lives has totally been enriched by Ossie), please feel free to contact me either by email or by PM here. But look up Righty's offer of cuttlefish to find out the specifics about shipping.

Glad to hear that you found homes for all the hatchlings! Dr. Caldwell's lab is a good place for those that haven't found homes with TONMO.com members.

Akyu, thank you for doing so well in documenting Ossie's life with you and for the videos of her. You've done very well keeping Ossie under difficult circumstances (very small tank).

Do continue feeding Ossie - she might be around for a while longer.

Nancy

Thanks Nancy, and thank YOU for all your support. You've been absolutely great.

Ossie's been pretty active within her den today. She's been flicking her tentacles out and I'm really hoping that she's also eyeing that $7 shrimp we had bought her a week ago. She had eaten the red crab we had also gotten, but that was about two days ago.

Right now, W. has fished out about 13 of the babies out of the tank. about 3-5 more are hovering above the sand, making it difficult for us to get them. We've separated them into their own little containers (plastic cups), given each of them a shell of their own to be their dens and hopefully, will be able to get our hands on some tigger pods or other pods tonight for their dining pleasure.

From everything we've read, we're expecting another two-three population explosions over the next three days.

W. is now declaring that she's managed to catch all the babies - about 10 in total. Hmm, some seem to have been lost since this morning.

Will update later.

Wow,

Thanks to the both of you for being such great "Octomoms". I'm sure the babies that survive will have a great life.

:smile:

I cant wait to get back in town next week! I have a bunch of space right now if you need it to house babies.

Also at the store, they have a bunch of deli containers with lids that you can use to house babies. Poke some tiny hole for circulation and away you go.

OMG they are sooo small!!

I had to remake a container, because I used window screen for ventilation. These guys are so small that they could probably sqeeze through that!

Feeding them will be challenging. Hell, finding them after I put them in is already challenging. My tank is full of baby snails that are slightly larger then they are. Does anyone think this can be a good source of food?

The shore caught pods here may be a little too big still. Unless they can take something down bigger then it that swims much more efficiently...

Any suggestions??

Akyu-Tell me how the tiger pods do. If they eat them, I might have to go buy some of those for a while.

Righty,

You're Ceph Central right now!

Okay. One casualty so far and sure enough, a population explosion this morning.

Paradox, let me know if your babies survive, because at last count this morning, we have 25 live ones separated out with 3 more in the tank that we are unable to scoop up right now.

Yeah food source is going to be a problem. While in the tank, they should have been able to forage some copepods their size but now out of the tank....

Hopefully New Alameda has got the tigger pods in for me today.

Any suggestions on food source (that we can get for the immediate future?)

Cuttlegirl, you'd make a great Octo-mom too! Want a couple? (Why does this feel like I'm pushing 8-legged dope?)

They are soo small, that I will probably want to remake a good container. I just threw pods of all sizes into one modified breeder containing one of the little guys. Hopefully he will eat some.

The 2nd guy seemed to get out of his holding pen, for I saw him floating around freely in my baby cuttle section. I couldnt catch him and now I cant see him. He may survive in here for its kinda sealed (except for an open top) and has mucho pods.

I might take a few more If I can create a better house for them. Ill keep you updated.

Is there any way you could get to the shore and do plankton tows? You can buy a plankton net or make one out of lady's pantyhose. If you want to try making your own, I can give you directions...

Thanks for the offer on the baby octos, but I kind of have my hands full with the three baby cuttles and the kitchen remodel right now... I think I will just be a cuttlemom :grin:

lol cuttlegirl... oh well, I gave it the ol' college try.

Paradox, managed to get my hands on a lot of tigger pods today and they seem to be the perfect size!

We've dripped three tigger pods into each of the cups containing each octopus and am hoping that they'll go after them soon. Right now, they seem to be scared of the tigger pods but most of them look like they perked up after having the possibility of a hunt on their hands.

Will let you all know if there's another population explosion in the morning.

lol cuttlegirl... oh well, I gave it the ol' college try.


:smile:

:lol: I miss Calvin and Hobbes!

Yay C & H! My fave was one where Hobbes asked Calvin if he thought there was a God and Calvin replies after some silence, "Well, someone's out to get me."

I saw some new hatchlings swimming about the tank this morning but am "cramped" over with pain this morning to separate them out and W isn't awake yet. Went to check out some of the hatchlings. There's some that seem very active and those are the ones who seem to have figured out how to hunt. A couple of them are laying listlessly on the bottom of the cups, moving only when the tigger pods approach, and then to get out of the tigger pod's way. I'm not sure those are going to survive.

Is there a way to hand feed them?

I've got some phyto-feast to feed the tigger pods. Should I squirt a little into the ones that aren't eating's container?

Ossie was still alive as of yesterday. In a little while, the Advil should kick in and I should be able to see her. Will report back soon.

Anybody else in the bay area interested in some O. Mercatoris hatchlings?

I can probably take a few more..I just made a mini housing complex and got some tige pods..

Im feeling a little lazy in driving over there though...When are you available?

We should be home most of the day today. Tomorrow, W'll be at home all day and I'll be home in the evening. On the 4th, things are up in the air because W. seems like she's about to get sick.

If you still have the box that I put the cups in, just cut out a similar size for how many you want. Otherwise, I might be able to recreate the set-up.

How are yours doing?

Well, in about two hours, 23-24 of the babies are going to Dr. Roy Caldwell's lab. Paradox has six of them, and Righty is taking five this coming weekend.

It looks like only 5 casualties so far, but I'm unable to determine if the rest has eaten the tigger pods or not. Everytime I think I see a tigger carcass, it moves after a while.

We'll probably do a water change this evening after the two dozen are gone.

I've been able to shoot a couple of movies, plus take a few photos. I will try and upload those as soon as I can. There's not much to see but what there is, is VERY VERY cute.

Ossie is very pale from what I can see. She flicked out a tentacle at me a few times today when I waved at her. I don't think she's eaten but there's plenty of food for her inside her tank.

One of the babies was so cute last night when I dripped a tigger pod into his cup. He turned red, then did a flip (it almost looked like it was turning itself inside out!). It stretched itself out to almost twice its size, then then started stalking the pod. Very cute.

Will update more if there's more news but at this time, i think it's just a matter of trying to get them to eat and not be afraid of the tigger pods.

Wow,

You have done an amazing job keeping the babies alive, it is usually the first couple of days that are the hardest. They are adorable as babies, it's hard to imagine something so small with a personality isn't it?

Thanks Cuttlegirl and yes! They already display personality. Most seem laid-back but two are showing signs of the same indignant entitlement to life that Ossie had.

The people from the lab came by and were surprised. They had thought that the babies were of the same species they had earlier this year; those were large-egged babies. Apparently, Ossie's a true Mercatoris and we have small-egged babies, which make them extremely hard to care for. They were surprised by the small casaulty rate (6 out of 42?). I asked them to keep me apprised of their well-being.

Well Akyu, you continue to do things right. You must be a born octo keeper!

Nancy

Borrowed a friend's camera that has a macro setting on it and got some photos. These are two of the best, cropped. The orange thing floating above the baby in the 2nd photo is a tigger pod. These are clear plastic 10 oz tumblers we have them in; that's how small these cuties are.

http://www.geocities.com/shairwriter/babyocto2.jpg
http://www.geocities.com/shairwriter/babyocto1.jpg

Here are two quick movies: first one is before we separated them and they are still in the tank swimming near the surface (two of them)

Octo Babies in Tank (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ADOnPjfNeVk)

The next one is of one of them swimming inside its cup.

Baby in Plastic Cup (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uT9QpFKl1UE)

Enjoy! :octopus2:

They are so tiny!

Amazing! Amazingly small! I wasn't sure what I was supposed to look for in that video. I think I saw the little guy jetting across the cup in the second video, but at first I thought it was just some seabug or fleck of dust.

It will be interesting to see a photographic timeline of these guys as they grow.

Perhaps we should start a ophthalmology trust fund for ceph breeders.

Right now, I'm not holding out hope for these guys. Every time I check, they haven't eaten their tigger pods. I'm hoping there's microscopic stuff in the water that they're feeding on, which is accounting for their survival.

I'm wondering if I should try feeding them the stuff I've been feeding the pods. They do seem to perk up right after a water change... so should I shift their water changes to daily instead of every other day? So many questions...

And the thing is, I really feel like I can't experiment with these guys because I promised Righty 5 of them and he can't take them until this weekend. I just hope they survive until he gets them.

Paradox, any updates on yours?

I had 2 die, and Im not super hopeful of the other 2 as well. I just cant get them to eat anything. They have tiger pods and Plankton as food, but they still do not eat and eventually get weak and die.

i dont think theres much else I can try unless someone with real experience has any suggestions..

Mine are kept in a small modified tupperware and have constant circulation of water. My water is perfect with a temp ranging 75-79 degrees. Salinity at .025. My cuttles in the same system are thriving and begging for food as we speak.

We need to get more information from Dr. Caldwell's lab about how they're raising the hatchlings they took.

But, on one of my visits to the NRCC, I tried to find out as much as I could about how they fed their hatchlings. It was not enough that there was food present - new food had to be added several times a day. You have to interest the hatchlings in their food. Also, they have to have just exactly the right size of food. So adding a bit more food from time to time might help.

Even under the best of circumstances, you'll lose some.

Nancy

Dr. Caldwell told me in an email that they raised them in plastic cups. However, his assistant who came to pick up the young octos said that the last time she tried to raise some, they died within 2 days, and when the student that's going to be raising these 24, tried with another batch, they lasted 7 days.

I had another casualty today, but I'm switching to feeding them several times a day. You guys would laugh at me peering intently into the bowl where we're housing the pods, trying to pick out the teeniest ones to feed the octos.

I also set up a fan above the cups to try and get the water circulating a bit within the cups. The octos seemed to perk up after I started the fan so that may help. Also am trying Phyto-feast inside one of the cups.

I'm also wondering since I'm keeping them in transparent cups, whether that's a detriment or a plus. I heard that octopuses learn from another while housed in separate tanks; hence the decision to have transparent cups.

If they don't survive, it certainly won't be because of lack of care. You're doing an amazing job.

Thanks Sorceress and the rest of you who've posted. You guys are getting some inkling as to how much I have invested emotionally with these little ones. I'm seeing little octo babies everywhere! Went to dim sum the other day, saw a tea leaf floating, pointed at it as I asked W, "Guess what I saw." She just rolled her eyes at me :lol:

I've one marked out as my favorite. If that one goes... I'm going to be heartbroken. That's the one that does antics when I come near; it's been soooo active since I turned on the fan and put two fresh pods in.

We'll be keping our tentacles crossed!:tentacle2: :tentacle:

I completely agree with Sorseress, you have done everything in your power short of giving blood for these little ones. You should have no guilt if some perish.

It is with a sad heart that I announce that all octo babies that are still with me have not survived.

Ossie is still alive, having outlived the brood that was kept here. We will be keeping a close eye one her for the rest of her lifespan.

Don't worry guys, I know I did the best with my little knowledge. I just wish I could've done more. It's just sad to watch these little guys so full of life the first few days weaken slowly over the next week and die.

At death, they are about 1/3 of the size they are when swimming about.

I don't think we will be getting an octopus until we have the larger tank set up and running. BTW, I now believe that all those "bad" events that prevented us from setting up a larger tank, was the universe's way of giving us a shot at raising Ossie's offspring.

Hopefully, Paradox and the UC Berkeley labs managed to keep a few alive.

Sorry Righty. I tried.

Sorry about the loss of the babies, but you know how difficult it is to raise them. It's even more the case because Ossie's babies are not as large as the hatchlings from bimacs or briareus.

It's sad, though, when they don't survive, despite your best efforts.

Nancy

You did a great job to keep them going this long. The odds were always against them, but you gave them a really good shot at survival.

So sorry to hear that the little ones didn't make it. Maybe one will make from Paradox and Dr. Caldwell...

I'm sorry to hear about the little ones, too. I don't know that it's any immediate consolation, but in the long term, the record of your experience may make it a bit more likely that others will be able to raise their octo-babies in the future. Raising these animals is known to be challenging or harder for experts, so I think you did a great job. And as much as I like to anthropomorphize cephs because of their intelligence and personalities, their reproductive strategy is more in the "have lots of offspring, and expect that most of them won't survive" than the human style "all your eggs in one basket" approach.

There are so many variables to consider... maybe the babies have different water quality or trace mineral requirements than adults, or maybe they need some nutrition that has to come from a mixed diet or something.

Reading back, although there's some evidence of octopuses learning by watching others, at least in cuttlefish there is also evidence that the learning center of the brain develops quite a while after hatching, so baby cuttles are "on auto pilot" for the first part of their lives until the brain grows a bit, and then they start learning a bit later. This was in Hanlon & Messenger, and involved that baby S. officianalis wouldn't learn to give up attacking shrimps in glass tubes, but the adults would try a few times and learn. This seemed to be related to development of some brain lobe (the vertical lobe, I think, which is also a learning center in octos.) Which, I suppose, suggests that if mental skills scale directly with size in cephs, that giant and colossal squids might be really smart... I suspect, though, that it's mostly that tiny larvae have so little space and energy that they have to devote most of their early developmental resources to eating and growing, and don't get to thinking until later, where we go through that stage in utero... (didn't meant to hijack this thread with a science ramble, of course... I know I'm a bit weird in that a way I avoid getting too caught up in sad events is to look at them from the lens of abstract understanding, but I by no means mean to downplay the heart in favor of the head...)

I thought mine laid eggs as she was not eating very much and suddenly got weaker like yours.

I was told she probably laid eggs and would eat less and die soon and she is getting weaker and eating less. I have read this before and accepted it as correct.

You're saying your eggs are actually floating?? Her den is very dark and I'm trying to leave her alone so I have yet to see the eggs. Hmmmm. I wish I was at home so I could look. Do they float immeadiately????

Please let me know so I can further troubleshoot this! :confused:

Fishy1:sink:

Fishy, I never saw Ossie's eggs. Just woke up one day to babies in the tank. But then apparently, Ossie is/was a small-egged species so maybe I saw them and didn't realize what they were.

Nancy, Cuttlegirl, Sorceress & Monte, thanks for your words. And yeah, Monte, I tend to over-analyze stuff and push the emotional away. As soon as I realized there was very little hope for them, I started to do that and just went over all my water changes etc. to figure out what I could do better for next time.

And yes! I am bound and determined to have a next time.

Octo eggs don't usually float. The babies swim around and may appear to float.

Nancy