Yep, that's my other big interest :)

Anyway, this is an on-going thing in the UK where DEFRA (the Department for Environment, Food & Rural Affairs) are about to kick the animal trade into shape in the UK. What this means is things like the possible banning of keeping snakes that can get to over 8 foot long, the revision of the DWA (Dangerous Wild Animals) license which covers venemous snakes and other dangerous animals etc etc.

Although I have yet to find reference to blue ring octopuses there is a good chance that they will find their way onto this proposed updated list of DWAs, this means that a vet inspection of your premises, the holding tank, your security arrangements and your insurance details will all need checked in advance of purchasing an octopus or face a heavy fine and ban from keeping animals... from hamsters and up!

I know how many people as hobbyists feel about keeping blue rings and other venemous animals but i feel it may be about time that this came about. As caring ceph keepers we must make sure that we act responsibly and that our small corner of the pet trade doesn't end up in the firing line as much as herpetology has!

here is usefull links to sites by the hobbyists in the UK http://www.f-b-h.co.uk/index.htm and http://www.defra.gov.uk/ for the governing body.

So, it doesnt really affect us here but as i have lectured on the subject i thought it was very interesting and a possible warning shot? Perhaps sharks, stonefish, lionfish etc etc will find their way here too??????

Too true!

I am the Asst Vice Pres of the Southeastern Hot Herp Society (www.venomousreptiles.org) , the largest venomous reptile society in the world with members in 30+ states and 11+ countries.
A point we are constantly trying to get across is the need to be proactive. Everyone wants total free reign to keep what they want and not have laws regulating things, well all it takes is 1 mishap and people who have no idea what the heck they're talking about (politicians) will spring into action and pass laws to make things "safe" and protect thr voters.

The point is there a few ways to handle things....

1 sit back and hope nothing changes and you can keep what you want - keep your head in the sand and hope no one notices the possibilites.

2 wait for the axe to fall. someone gets nipped by something toxic, or worse yet, someone gets nipped by someone esle's toxic pet. Then the government freaks and outlaws them all and you have to break the law or go through hell to keep what you want

OR
3 be proactive and work with the powers that be to get a set of rules/permit system in place BEFORE something bad happens.

I kept preaching that the upside to permits is if you have one, then they CAN'T take your animals unless YOU screw up!

Realistically, which is more dangerous...
an 8' novenomous snake or a blue ring that can kill in minutes from just a nip that you probably won't even feel.
I would say your concerns are warranted!

-V

Venom, your reference to people who don't know what they're talking about is well-taken. A few years ago, some aides to the Mayor must have had a great time, when after some hubbub about pets, the Mayor released a memo banning the majority of animals from homes.

I can still hear little old ladies going on about how they'd defend their canaries and budgerigars from the Mayor. Polar bears and lobsters and other unlikely pets were included. Lizards were included, but my mother and brother still have their lizards. Dogs were not on the banned animal list. I doubt blue rings or many other genuinely dangerous but possibly housebroken creatures made it onto the list, either.

Melissa

Melissa,

Here's the NYC fine scale for dangerous animals:

Blue-ring sitting on subway steps: $100
Gaboon pit-viper smoking in bar: $250
Wolverine busking on sidewalk: $400
Polar bear molesting U.S.S. Intrepid: $1000
Mesonychoteuthis swimming in Central Park reservoir: $1500

:roll:

Clem

I doubt blue rings or many other genuinely dangerous but possibly housebroken creatures made it onto the list, either.
Melissa

Unless an Octo happens to be involved in an "incident".
OR A well intentioned, yet misguided, lawmaker or pillar of the community type happens to see one of the gajillion venom shows on Discovery, sees that some Octos can be dangerous, then happens to see or hear of one in a store or collection, or available on the net ;)

Plausible scenario:

Pillar of society sitting home with kids/grandkids/dog whatever, watching TV. The kid/grandkid/dog happens to really like watching old Steve-O. "Crikey! This lil Ripper, called the Blue Ringed Octopus, can kill a man in under 4 minutes!" as he's trying to balance it on his nose, or drop it down the front of his pants.
Fast forward a week later, we see our hero of the story walk into a pet shop to get some doggy treats. There in a tank is an Octopus for sale! The sign says simply "Octopus". Now our good friend Mr. Bimac, as we all know is harmless, but he has that beautiful blue ring on the side and decides to show it off against the glass.
"OH DEAR LORD! A BLUE RING JUST LIKE I SAW ON TV!!" I must call my friend the mayor and have this stopped before a school full of children all come here ona field trip and feel the need to stick thier hands in unsupervised and get killed, then the blue ring escapes into the sewer and kills the whole state!!"

OK some things are slightly exagerrated, yet basically plausible.
You say, "Surely, they'll believe an expert that tells them it's a bimac!"
There's currently a very public battle going on in one fo the midwestern states involving a pet shop's claim that alligators and crocodiles only grow as large as the fish tank they are kept in and as such, are viable pets. Experts of course raise the BS flag and tell them the opposite, but the town council decides to believe the pet shop owner, since he's been selling them for so long. Viola, any kid with $50 can go buy a carnivore that can potentially reach 14' and 800lbs.

This is why I say if at all possible be proactive and get involved shaping the laws that effect YOU!

OK, I've rambled enough, storytime is over :)

-V

Melissa,

Here's the NYC fine scale for dangerous animals:

Blue-ring sitting on subway steps: $100
Gaboon pit-viper smoking in bar: $250
Wolverine busking on sidewalk: $400
Polar bear molesting U.S.S. Intrepid: $1000
Mesonychoteuthis swimming in Central Park reservoir: $1500

:roll:

Clem

Getting the permits to keep whatever you want and are qualified for?

Priceless ;)

Hah! coming from the most regulated state in the union (az), I can tell you that the whole thing about animal regulation is a crock of crap. some of the finest exotic venomous animal collections I have ever seen exist in our state (where, technically, you can't have most everything)... if the government steps in any further, why don't they outlaw pit-bulls, and rotties too? after all, don't they injure and kill more innocents than snakes (I won't even bring up the octopus, as that is just silly)
Allowing the government more access to your home and records is a huge mistake, one that I made more than a decade ago, and have had much cause to rue...
Go to every game and fish meeting and throw tomatoes, introduce bills, and let them know that you DO care...don't let what happened in arizona happen to you!
Greg

UK HAS banned pit-bulls,
30 years ago (at least) Croydon (south London) would not allow pet shops to sell poisonous marines like lionfish

Hah! coming from the most regulated state in the union (az), I can tell you that the whole thing about animal regulation is a crock of crap. some of the finest exotic venomous animal collections I have ever seen exist in our state (where, technically, you can't have most everything)... if the government steps in any further, why don't they outlaw pit-bulls, and rotties too? after all, don't they injure and kill more innocents than snakes (I won't even bring up the octopus, as that is just silly)

Hi Greg
Why would you say that they have the finest collections in Az? Is that because of strict regulations or are they illegal collections in your state? Just curious.

As Mike said American Pitbulls are banned in the UK and that was only AFTER kids got bitten/maulled/killed by them and suddenly everyone reacted with one big massive knee-jerk response and there was mayhem. Everyone that owned a terrier that looked even remotely like an american pitbull was branded irresponsible and hassled in the streets, such is the public outcry exagerated by the media.

So, dogs like that are now frowned apon and its illegal to keep A. pitbulls.

By being pro-active and by getting involved with local governing, I suggest that we could be the ones to advise the people making the final decissions.

(damn, have to go to work :( )

be back later :)

Totally support your views! Here in AZ, the herp groups dropped the ball with lobbying, and they passed ridiculously restrictive laws...Lets not let that happen again!
the collections I have seen here rival anything I have seen anywhere in the US...and I have seen quite a few...I have some friends in Germany that have beautiful displays, but I have only seen the pics (alas!) My point was that the check system of governmental laws established in AZ are ineffectual, and are carried out by untrained personnel who, in general, were rejected by the police or sherriff's depts, and picked up by g&f...not exactly the cream of the crop. Venom is lucky in Florida, where they have a reasonable set of rules that seem to work out well...all of us out here are very envious! Every year we go into the public meeting re:reptiles , at the councils HQ, and try to set up a similar program, but it is like water eroding rock...every year a little bit of headway. I don't know if I will see the changes in my lifetime, to be honest.
If we had only been more organized in 1976 when they passed these ridiculous laws, we wouldn't be fighting this up-hill battle...luckily, the marine keeping community out here is kept well aware of possible changes, and has some good public support....
Greg

It seems to me there is too much scare mongering about this.
Simple solution, who wants to keep Blue Ringed Octopuses anyway. They're too small, deadly poisonous, can escape as well as any other octopus from a poorly secured tank and do nothing that any other octopus doesn't do. So anyone who keeps a Blue ring has only got it for the shock factor anyway, forget the fact that they are effectively risking everyones life around them, their family etc. I would say anyone wishing to keep a Blue Ringed Octopus shouldn't qualify for a licence on account of the fact they are prepared to keep one in the first place.
Secondly, Pit Bulls and Rotweillersare dangerous animals. They are bred to fight. Who would want a Pit Bull or a Rottweiller either. Poisonous snakes are potentially lethal. I enjoy my hobby but wouldn't want to risk my life doing it. Is this the thrill of keeping these things. The traditional image everyone has of a Pit Bull owner or a rotweiller owner is someone with tatoos and body piercings strutting their stuff with Rex on a short chain lead and spiked collar. I wonder what Blue Ring owners look like.

I wonder what Blue Ring owners look like.

I'm told they resemble academics from Dorset.

Welcome back, Pakoc.

:wink:

Clem

Simple solution, who wants to keep Blue Ringed Octopuses anyway. They're too small, deadly poisonous, can escape as well as any other octopus from a poorly secured tank and do nothing that any other octopus doesn't do. So anyone who keeps a Blue ring has only got it for the shock factor anyway, forget the fact that they are effectively risking everyones life around them, their family etc. I would say anyone wishing to keep a Blue Ringed Octopus shouldn't qualify for a licence on account of the fact they are prepared to keep one in the first place.

I do.

I, for one, take great offense at your statement. :x

I keep venomous animals and have done so for 14 years. I do not do it for shock value. I do it because I have chosen to do so.
They interest me, I accept the inherent dangers and work accordingly.
Based on your reasoning, anyone who chooses to keep potentially dangerous animals should not be allowed because they want to in the first place.
I fail to see the logic. :grad:

Do I feel anyone and everyone who wants to, should be able to keep cobras?
Of course not, but I believe those with the qualifications and desire should be able to.

Do we need to mention the Equestrian community?
Horses kill thousands more people than blue rings and snakes combined.

Hmmm, how about cars?
Should anyone who wants a drivers license be denied having it because they want it and driving kills millions of people?
What about trips that arent neccessary: trips to friends houses, trips to Disney, vacations, movies, etc. Do you feel these people who drive when it's not totally needed are unneccesarily risking people's lives? Simply because they want to drive?

I have many years of experience, all of my animals are in a locked down, purpose-built, secure building in caging designed to be escape proof. Why shouldn't I be allowed to keep them? What about my Crocodiles?
Wanna take them too?
I do dozens of educational talks on reptiles and the environment every year, from schools and herp clubs to game and fish. Every year when Florida Game and Fish does thier display at the State Fair, wanna take a guess who they borrow the snakes for the displays from?
Not a Zoo, not an animal park, but from a private individual who keeps a nice collection of venomous snakes.

So I suggest you think a bit more before stereotyping and lumping people together. :roll:

Admittedly there are the thrill seekers trying to show off by keeping something they don't have the skill or experience to keep, that's where the permitting process factors in. If they do it and aren't qualified and permitted, they break the law, they get the penalty.

There are also plenty of people who have no business with a dog, a horse or a car. Heck there's a guy at my office that's so clumsy he puts himself and others at risk simply by walking while chewing gum!

If you don't want to keep them, then don't. But saying no one else should; and that they, by virtue of wanting to, are therefore not qualified to do so is simply daft.

I'll come down off my box now [/end rant]

-V

and oh yeah....
I will be keeping blue rings soon as well.
And, I do have a few tattoos :P

Venom,
FYI, this thing called kapoc or pakoc or whatever, seems to derive some sort of pleasure from presenting his/her/its self as an academic...not to worry. It is probably just some prepubescent kid with lots of acne and some time on its hands. Not to worry.
I also have been keeping venomous animals from the 80's, and have kept blue rings, and as you can attest to, venomous snakes are much more interesting in their habits than are cal kings or corn snakes...so too are the blue rings. You go for it...it is obvious that you know what you are doing, and hopefully, will shed some light on this much misunderstood creature...after all, it is all up to us!
happy cephing!
Greg

Hi all, there are truths on both sides.

Having worked in many pet shops and also in a tropical zoo I have seen my fair share of people ask me where is the piranha tank and will they be okay in a bowl?, or can they buy a tarantula as a joke to scare their pal/spouse/mum? and 'well, if it gets too big I'll just give it back to you.' statements.

To be fair, these people rarely actually get round to actually buying the animal but there really is no restrictions to say that a guy cant buy a tarantula and stick it in his girlfriend's bed for a laugh... I feel that many of the animals should be 'harder to obtain'.

Also, in a period of a few years, over 20 iguanas were given to me and they ranged from 18" to 5' long. At best there were probably about 3 that were in a half decent shape when we took them in. Some of them died or got put down because they were in such poor shape yet the owners, who had zero experince of exotic animals husbandry before buying an iguana thought that they were in perfect health!!! A screening process would have stopped the deaths of thousands of these poor animals that were imported suring the 90s when the exotic animal trade boomed!

Also lost count of the number of times Burmese Pythons over 12 feet long were offered to us, or red ear terrapins whos shells had a consistency of cheese! Were they feeding them LARD?

It is very difficult to separate the issues here and my experiences of animal husbandry has left my view of most exotic animal keepers tainted but there are still a lot of excellent carers out there. Its just a fact that not everyone is up to the standard that these animals need. So to be fair to the animals, tighter legislation would help them.

If someone REALLY understands the risk of owning a Blue Ring and has proactively provided a suitable environment for it then go for it. The simple fact that people have bothered to visit this site for info is a good start. I do feel that 'experts in the given fields' should be employed for the purpose. And not governement workers or vets who mostlt deals with domestic animals from day to day. Wouldn't be the first time I'd taken an animal to the vet and they'd said, 'looks in great health but what is it?'

I am worried more about joe public who has no relevant experience buying any dangerous animal and something bad happens and then the sh*t hits the fan for all of us. With that I'm including anything venemous or large growing.

Pakocs' view of a Rottie owner is exactly how they were portrayed in the British media. And it has stuck since then too! That wont change easily either. So that is actually a public perception that is often re-visited.

hehehe i also think that looking at a venemous snake sit perfectly still for 3 days at a time is just as uninteresting as watching a Cali King sit still for 3 days at a time LOLOL :sleeping:

FYI, this thing called kapoc or pakoc or whatever, seems to derive some sort of pleasure from presenting his/her/its self as an academic...not to worry. It is probably just some prepubescent kid with lots of acne and some time on its hands. Not to worry.
All -- this is a worthwhile thread and I don't want to begin removing any posts or end up locking it, but I will if insults abound. Let's agree to put the original "pakoc thread" behind us -- the charades are over.

No response to this post is necessary (or desired!). Thanks!

Point taken.
Colin...I guess you are right...I just went into the ven. room, and rattlesnakes sleeping aren't all that exciting or pushing the boundries of science. :)
I also agree with you that it takes a keeper with a certain amount of experience and dedication to maintain a ven. collection, and blue rings should not be available to everyone...but the amount of bites that have been sustained in captivity (none in the u.s., as far as I can tell) certainly should not preclude its being available. Most stores out here ( I actually did call them all yesterday-gosh, just like research!) wouldn't even order one for me, citing their "deadly" characteristics. So, in a sense, the retail pet market is doing a fairly good job of policing itself...kind of a suprise, but a good one. I have never seen a blue ring for sale in a tank, I have always had to order them, and even that is a pain in the rear (can I say that?).
Greg

I also agree with your view of poor husbandry...I have picked up several hawks and falcons that had to be euthanized because the well-meaning homeowner had kept the injured bird in a box with some paper towels and fed it bread for a few days...I really do believe, though, that the growing existance of "nature" shows has done wonders for the general public insomuch as far as educating them on basic habits and food preferences of many non-domestic animals. I regularly give talks at schools around the state, and the difference in education (re:animals) is amazingly different from a decade ago. In fact, most people I talked to yesterday (checkout cashiers, a waitress, gas station attendant, etc) actually KNEW what a blue ring octopus was, and that it was deadly...you have to admit, it certainly is a sensational animal!
I too have taken in my share of sick iguanas, pythons, boas, etc...and it does get depressing. But I have found that most of the people, once educated on the mistakes they may have made, will not do it again. The pet trade is a little to blame for this...I have often heard pet store salespersons (now how is THAT for PC, Tony?:)) tell a potential buyer that "this a special breed of burmese python that only gets to be 5' long, etc..." Especially with our rotten recession going on, stores are doing anything they can to sell animals and tanks, however possible. I make a point of only buying from local stores that have a honorable and intelligent sales staff, and I go out of my way to support them...when the Phoenix Zoo calls me looking for a weird type of fish, I send them straight over to the store I buy from...and it has proven to be good for everyone involved.
Bottom line? Perhaps common sense is the only meter stick we can use here...it certainly seems simple enough.
Greg

Well said!

that's why i knew that you'd all have a look at the herpetological goings on! i just felt it was relevant to all of us who keep animals as pets.

Yeah, Greg, the kids that i have spoke to over the years have a great general knowledge about animals and their plights.. its the adults that scare me! :)

ahhh sorry,
being the new guy here, I didn't realize this "person" was a repeat offender.
I guess I just never have been able to grasp a person's need for confrontation being so great that they would go to a message board on the net with the express purpose of creating havok and discord.

But they really don't seem to be in short supply and every board gets thiers occasionally.

Best response is usually to ignore them, sorry I fueled his fire ;)

-V

Yeah, Greg, the kids that i have spoke to over the years have a great general knowledge about animals and their plights.. its the adults that scare me! :)

Colin,

To reinforce that point, here's a Cambodian boy with his best friend.

:shock:

lets rub a rat on his nose and see how his best friend treats him LOL

Yay! photoshop opportunity! :D

:roflmao:

very nice T

Thought i was in for a half engulfed boy before i opened it LOL

Ha ha!

And I thought Disney was the source of nightmares in children! :lol:

Serious point, no rubbish, just contributing to thread.

If an animal bites or is aggressive or poisonous or otherwise dangerous, other than their behaviour when observed from a distance, what is honestly the point.
Not trying to stir up aggressive responses to my humble opinion I believe most can trace their current interest in a fairly steroetypical way. They will from an early age show an interest in keeping one sort of animal or another. This interest will be encouraged or otherwise until at some stage they are able to indulge their interest and start keeping animals of whatever sort they are keen on. When they have developed further it is clear that the ordinary types cease to be as interesting and so the more extraordinary species are sought to reflect that persons level of knowledge and experience. Utimately that means that someone keeping snakes, say, may graduate from non venemous to venemous or large constrictors or breeding rare species etc. At that stage the person will strongly defend their position as one of serious study which is almost certainly true but the steps that brought them there are based on a need for more interesting, unusual subjects. I would say that part of the fun of 'harmless' species of snake and or octopus and or any other species is the ability to interact with them. Simply watching them may be interesting but you can do that with harmless and dangerous alike. I keep crocodiles and have a DWA license. To be honest I find my dog more interesting than these animals. (PLease don't reply with: 'then you shouldn't keep them then', I'm trying to make a point!) I can play with my dog (its not a rottweiller or a pit bull), I can spend quality time etc. My crocodiles just try to bite me. When I handle them I 'gear' up to do so. Other than that they are extremely boring. Of course other people are amazed and fascinated by these animals. And that is my point. The most interesting thing that happens with my crocs is when someone comes to see. I can look at myself and be this honest. It is important to understand that. Honestly, those of you who have a Blue Ringed Octopus. How many times do you show a visitor your blue ringed octopus and not tell them its very poisonous. "Yes I keep dangerous animals because they are dangerous and I am interested in them because of that" is a much more honest claim than to suggest, as previously in this thread, that 'poisonous snakes exhibit much more interesting behaviour than non poisonous species' Thats just bizarre. A Dangerous Wild Animal licence licences people to keep dangerous wild animals. Blue ringed octopus are dangerous wild animals. Large constrictors are dangerous wild animals. Lets encourage rather than attempt to moderate the controls being suggested. Serious enthusiasts will always remain serious. All these new controls would mean is that the idiots are removed which is a boon for us all.

Many years ago someone said people are the biggest danger.

Unfortunately that is still true!
SARS may be the killer but you (now) catch it from - people!
PEOPLE are the almost universal common factor in any dangerous situation -- either causing it or drawing others into it.
The problem is that we need to interact with our environment to live, we live in world community, and the other people are pursuing their own objectives. At last we can SEE that our environment is finite.


Did you learn to ride a bicycle and never fall off? Think of the dangers without the objectives and we would never do anything!
Would you choose to live in padded cell, drip-fed for life?

Interests help us to learn (see post about ling-cod and GPOs) and to some extent we must take risks in order to have fulfilled lives.

The British child-safety legislation frightens me in that it reinforces the view that all strangers are dangerous. (Fact - You are more likely to be murdered by someone you know than by a stranger).
When we get to know someone we therefore change from a harmless stranger to a dangerous aquaintance! True of animals too!
(Reminds me of the golden (50 year) wedding anniversary question:--
Did you never think of divorce in all that time?
Answer:-- Divorce - never, murder more often!)

We need objects of curiosity, and sometimes it helps if they are more real than a television screen.What really frightens me is when fiction becomes more real to people than reality is (Soaps, etc.). Life is stranger than fiction, and I enjoy its curiosities.

Hey kapoc, where exactly is that Ivory Tower you live in? You can't make sweeping statements, especially geared as if you were speaking of a lower class of people...it just doesn't hold true!
I have a friend who studies crocodilians, and he is fascinated by them...instead of whining about them, he actually gets so wound up talking about them and their eccentricities that he gets the people around fascinated as well...Steve Irwin does this perfectly on his show, and by being enthusiastic, he has introduced the concept of finding these animals interesting to a whole new wide world audience, whether he is talking about a red sided garter snake or a black mamba. All animals, even blue rings, are fascinating in their own right.
Just my opinion.
Greg

Would you choose to live in padded cell, drip-fed for life?
What flavor? :D

There is a very pertinent thread here --

http://www.tonmo.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=29

I agree with others that it's way over-simplifying things to suggest that the only reason someone would own a blue ring is because it's dangerous. Obviously all species are unique by definition. I personally wouldn't venture to suggest that no one would ever have a justified reason for owning a blue ring.

That said, there are others here who are strongly against the keeping of blue rings, for several valid reasons. So far, for me at least, this is an ongoing discussion without a conclusion.

The status as I see it is this: if you're thinking about owning a blue ring (for whatever reason), you should read and understand all of the caveats that have been published to date. Many of them can be found via links in the thread referenced above. There are many excellent alternatives to owning such a dangerous animal, and such options should be strongly considered.

Hey all:

I must say that I find the "venom" with which some address this subject to be interesting. I, actually considered a blue ring for my first ceph. The reason had nothing to do with its potential danger or for its shock value. I simply found it to be a beautiful and interesting creature. However, after research (much of it accomplished right here at Tonmo) I decided that the risks outweighed the potential pleasure that this pet might give me.

That being said, I don't think that the answer lies in thinking in terms of absolutes. To say that nobody should be able to keep one or that one is "warped" for wanting to do so is overly simplistic (in my humble opinion). Do we outlaw every activity which is potentially life threatening? (For a couple hundred dollars and 3 hours of training you can jump out of an airplane)

In terms of regulation, I agree that this community should be proactive in attempting to help craft any regulations that would limit one's ability to keep potentially dangerous marine life (or any potentially dangerous animal for that matter). I do speak from experience when I say that allowing legislation to be created by those who lack the appropriate expertise can lead to absurd results. I am forced to deal with those results every day - it is amazing how laws with obvious good intentions can so often have injust results because of poor drafting.

George

dammit!!!

I did actually try to not get into a BRO debate again LOLOLOL :bonk: :roll: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Lawfish, you said a mouthful! when the exotic reptile laws were passed here, g/f intentionally went overboard, as they expected a huge outcry from the herpers in AZ...and only 7 people showed up for the conference...so the bloody law passed completely, and now we can hardly keep anything! I would hate to see the same thing happen with marine fish...I happen to enjoy blue rings, and hope to be one of the people able to keep them for a longer amount of time someday...shipping is certainly better than ever, and so are the collectors...
Hope springs eternal.
Greg