well here they are. im in the process of hatching the first batch with takes approx. 30 min. i guess. but heres the pics. anyone who wants some let me know and we can work out getting in touch with the supplier or something

kdf

Cute packaging! I want to see the little guys...

Joe,

Do you think it would be possible to get a detailed compositional breakdown from the manufacturer? What genera in what proportions?

Dan

from what i can tell it looks like lots of cyclopces, some sort of green colored plankton some small brown balls which im guessing are some sort of copopod or mysid shrimp egg, and small little white slivers that im guessing are the latter also. anyway ill keep yall updated on what comes out of this

i think that alot of that information may be classified from the public knowledge but ill see what i can do.

i think that alot of that information may be classified from the public knowledge but ill see what i can do.

Didn't someone have one of those USB microscope webcam gadgets from thinkgeek? That'd be pretty good for assessing the little beasties.... can't remember who, though; someone with baby cephs or eggs, tho.

i think that alot of that information may be classified from the public knowledge but ill see what i can do.

That would be a pretty silly thing to keep proprietary, IMO: if I was going to make a copy-cat product it wouldn't really matter what the proportions were. There's no risk associated with giving out that information, and tons of risk if you keep it secret: I suspect most reefkeepers would pass on this unless they knew it was pest-free.

Dan

OK, I just had a read through of the product website and am now much more skeptical.

http://www.marcweissaquariumproducts.com/reef_bugs.htm

Reef or marine “snow” is an aggregate of LIVING MICROBES clinging to, one or a combination of : organic, inorganic, volcanic, mineral, living or recently dead matter.

Reef Bugs™ yields particle sizes down to less than a micron and up to macroscopic particles. The individual living organisms are microscopic.

These microbes, primarily bacterial, and fungal (yeasts and related organisms) provide 30% of the planktonic matter raining down on the reef.

That means most of this is detritus: probably a lot of bioclastic material like diatom or foraminifera tests. The only things living are microbes. There are no amphipods, copepods, mysis or any other pelagic metazoans in here.

Dan

Ah, a Marc Weiss product. I don't trust them with 8 10 foot poles.

From MedicineNet.com
Microbe: A very tiny form of life -- microbes include bacteria, fungi, and protozoan parasites -- best visualized under a microscope.

The Microbe is so very small
You cannot make him out at all,
But many sanguine people hope
To see him through a microscope.

(From "The Microbe" by Hilaire Belloc, 1900)

The word "microbe" did not enter English usage until 1881. It was put together from Greek roots "mikros," small + "bios," life = small (form of) life.


As far as I can tell, this is skeletons of diatoms and other dead organisms coated with bacteria. Now, this may feed copepods and other small organisms that you want to culture in your tank, but it will not be macroscopic organisms to replace live pods.

I was wondering about the product anyway because I was under the impression that it was going to be "freeze-dried" pods. I know that copepods and amphipods carry their eggs, so I had this image of someone scraping the little eggs off of the females...

The reason brine shrimp can be sold dry is because they are adapted to survive when their water dries up. They encyst and can survive in suspended animation. Rotifers and Tardigrades can also do this.

Maybe bacteria is good for your reef system, I don't know, but it's not going to help my ceph...

i think your right about it being to feed cop. populations... but for a reef tank this stuff is great because its what all the corals feed on. now in my case the octo is in my reef tank. this means that not only will my corals benifit but it will aslo feed and promote copopod populations which in turn will feed the baby octos later... the cyclopses and other small planktonic creatures are very good for reef tanks though.

Sept. 2005: newborn seahorses at Bill Al’s Aquarium Super Center, Tamarac Florida were fed Reef Bugs. They willingly ate the product in a bare, newly set up tank. We know the Bugs stimulate copepods which seahorses feed on, but there were none in this aquarium. The product was then tried on the parents who resided in an established reef tank. They ate both the product and the pods that came out to feed on the Reef Bugs.
January, 2006: Alicia Geddings of Afishyonados, an aquarium shop in Sumter, South Carolina spawned, and is rearing wolf eels on an initial and early stage diet of Reef Bugs. The story and photos can be found at: columbiamarineaquariumclub.org Go to forums, then to “Fish talk” and the wolf eel story and photos can be found to begin on January 5th. So far, two broods have been brought through the larval stage and are doing well.There is also reference to coral, polyp and copepod growth in the wolf eel thread and elsewhere in the forum .


just for proof of eel larva and young feeding on this here are the quotes from the official website of the producer. also as you can see that baby sea horses fed on reef bugs. sea horse babies are also just as hard to feed as octopus young....

i think your right about it being to feed cop. populations... but for a reef tank this stuff is great because its what all the corals feed on.

Thats what the bottle says. If they actually do is another story.
There are many products that claim to do what this one does. Interestingly enough, most of them don't list ingredients so most reefers don't use them. Traditionally, Marc Weiss products say they do bunches of stuff, but it is impossible to tell as all the evidence is anecdotal at best, and most of them are considered snake oil.

now in my case the octo is in my reef tank. this means that not only will my corals benifit but it will aslo feed and promote copopod populations which in turn will feed the baby octos later... the cyclopses and other small planktonic creatures are very good for reef tanks though.

I don't know. Seems to me like you are putting detritus in your tank to rot or for the pods to eat. I think if you fed lots of Phyto-feast or other pod food you would get the same results. However, I wouldn't do it. I wouldn't add things to my reef that I don't know what they actually are. I especially am leery of the 'small planktonic creatures' part because almost no one has the means to actually test for them.

This kind of thing is an ongoing reefing debate. :D

Sept. 2005: newborn seahorses at Bill Al’s Aquarium Super Center, Tamarac Florida were fed Reef Bugs. They willingly ate the product in a bare, newly set up tank. We know the Bugs stimulate copepods which seahorses feed on, but there were none in this aquarium. The product was then tried on the parents who resided in an established reef tank. They ate both the product and the pods that came out to feed on the Reef Bugs.
January, 2006: Alicia Geddings of Afishyonados, an aquarium shop in Sumter, South Carolina spawned, and is rearing wolf eels on an initial and early stage diet of Reef Bugs. The story and photos can be found at: columbiamarineaquariumclub.org Go to forums, then to “Fish talk” and the wolf eel story and photos can be found to begin on January 5th. So far, two broods have been brought through the larval stage and are doing well.There is also reference to coral, polyp and copepod growth in the wolf eel thread and elsewhere in the forum .


just for proof of eel larva and young feeding on this here are the quotes from the official website of the producer. also as you can see that baby sea horses fed on reef bugs. sea horse babies are also just as hard to feed as octopus young....

This product isn't 'brand new', so if baby sea horses actually ate it, the sea horse people should be talking about it a lot - they don't seem to be doing so. I couldn't slog my way through the several wolf eel threads to try to find the posts he is talking about and I think it is suspect that he doesn't just link it directly.

Weiss products all say they do amazing things (one claims to cure ich and feed your filter feeders among other claims) but there is never any real evidence to say so, just claims by the manufacturer.

Sept. 2005: newborn seahorses at Bill Al’s Aquarium Super Center, Tamarac Florida were fed Reef Bugs. They willingly ate the product in a bare, newly set up tank. We know the Bugs stimulate copepods which seahorses feed on, but there were none in this aquarium. The product was then tried on the parents who resided in an established reef tank. They ate both the product and the pods that came out to feed on the Reef Bugs.

These claims are pretty outrageous. Even the manufacturer's website says this mix is mostly detrital grains with some "microbes" added in. Think about it, Joe--how healthy would a seahorse be if it was eating pieces of limestone?

I have a geological background so I find this very amusing--instead of simulating the offshore trophic environment, this product is simulating the offshore sedimentary deposition! ODP eat your hearts out.

If your local club is into this, I have a bridge in New York and a Moller sky car they might be interested in, too.

Dan

Yeah, I understand what you guys are saying about the detrius, but check out this thread -it is from a club member who raised wolf eel hatchling on them. Very impressive.
http://www.columbiamarineaquariumclub.org/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=19&t=1488&hl=reef%20bugs&st=15

I am setting up my small hex for bandensis and simple corals-this seems to be a decent product to try, not to replace amphipods, but for hatchling octos and amphipod food. I am very interested in raising the microbiological diversity of my tanks substrate. I would love to have growing sponges and splitting colorful shrooms like in the thread. No, my big tank won't need these for the Vulgaris, but I still want to have pods and such-even if they aren't food for the ceph.

Yeah, I understand what you guys are saying about the detrius, but check out this thread -it is from a club member who raised wolf eel hatchling on them. Very impressive.
http://www.columbiamarineaquariumclub.org/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=19&t=1488&hl=reef%20bugs&st=15

Save some money and dose with baker's yeast

Dan

I have had growing sponges and splitting colorful shrooms without the addition. I am now adding reef nutrition products because I know what is in them to see if I see a difference. I guess the point is, you simply don't need any miracle additions to have a thriving reef tank.

I am not sure what the baby wolf eels were supposed to be eating out of the box of 'reef bugs'.

I would like to see a simple study with the stuff, but if history holds, Weiss won't do it himself.

Save some money and dose with baker's yeast
You can raise eel hatchlings on baker's yeast?

Save some money and dose with baker's yeast

Dan


Thats generally the way Weiss products go - they tend to be repackaged off the shelf stuff.

You can raise eel hatchlings on baker's yeast?

I bet if that person put baker's yeast into their tank just the same as the reef bugs, their little eels would have had the same nutrition. Likewise if that person had put a teaspoon of chili powder in every day I bet the outcome would be the same.

What I'm saying is there's no connection between the reefbugs and the fact that there was a healthy population of amphipods and copepods in the tank.

Dan

I would like to see a simple study with the stuff.
I agree with that 100%- I would like to see true scientific studies showing x animal raised on copapods and the same on reef bugs. I don't like having to rely on posts from people, I would rather have proven studies stating that corals grew with reef bugs compared to the control group, etc.

I would even be fine with them doing the studies and posting the results that can be dupicated.

What I'm saying is there's no connection between the reefbugs and the fact that there was a healthy population of amphipods and copepods in the tank.

Dan

That is what I was looking for. You seemed to be saying that hatchlings would eat yeast itself.

By the way I am supposed to be recieving some pods today to stock my small reef tank. I got them from www.floridapets.com -they are also on ebay.

I'll post if they are a good supplier.

The study would be simple, too. We've been talking about mysids on another thread. Set up two small mysid hatcheries. Feed one enriched Artemia nauplii and the other reefbugs.

That is what I was looking for. You seemed to be saying that hatchlings would eat yeast itself.

My sarcasm doesn't make it through cyberspace very well :) Although as Righty pointed out, and based on the description on the website, there probably is yeast in the mix.

What I think is the greatest about this is when stores sell bottled bacteria for speed-cycling everyone yells scam. This is essentially the same thing with a little silt mixed in being sold as food.

Dan

look i simply posted about this to let yall know how the stuff works and if it will ever help out the ceph community. if your going to sit there and bash me about it then i simply wont tell yall how it works. now my friend who has owned reef tanks his entire life, and owns and operates a saltwater reef tank store, swears by this stuff and you know what ive never seen him be wrong about stuff like this. now there is no need to bash me over this. im just trying to help everyone out. this is a prime example of why i dont post on reef central anymore, because everyone just talks down to you like this.

Joe,

No one is bashing you, and I am sorry if you thought we/I was/were. We are talking about the product, not about you.
I am glad you brought this up, and as usual with products like this, I hope I am wrong but would bet money that I'm not.
I hope you continue to post and hope that the difference between having a bad opinion of a product and a bad opinion of the poster of a bad product is clear.

Thanks very much for posting about this, Joefish. Dan is right to bring up questions - maybe the issue is really whether this is suitable for raising cephs. If it isn't, it might be useful for other reef inhabitants.

It would be interesting to hear from your friend about how he uses this product, Joefish.

Nancy

Joefish,

Please let us know if this stuff works for you. I think we would like to have first-hand knowledge and descriptions of how it affects your system. I would believe what you say over what the manufacturer is putting on his website.

Thanks.

Joefish,

Please let us know if this stuff works for you. I think we would like to have first-hand knowledge and descriptions of how it affects your system. I would believe what you say over what the manufacturer is putting on his website.

Thanks.

Testimonials work best if you know the writer. Please tell us how it works for your tanks. I am very interested. I apologize if you thought I was bashing you or anyone else. As Dan said, it is hard to add in or take out emotions in these threads.

alright...

look ive talked to my friend and MARC WEISS had nothing to do with the developement and or invention of reef bugs... he is simply being used to market them... so dont think that because its being packeged by them that its bad... now... also my friend has taken a 10 gallon tank a few weeks ago with nothing in it but freshly mixed salt water. he added a small(less than a teaspoon) of reef bugs to it to see if i did contain eggs. sure enough in about a week copopods etc were crawling around in the empty tank. he said that yeah about half of the stuff is cyclopcies and planktonic debris but that is great for feeding corals. the other half on the other hand is exactly what one of yall said about scraping the eggs off of copopods. instead of scraping them though they simple just kindof dried them and crumbled them so there are eggs in it which will hatch... also the thing posted about the wolf eels is true because its his fiancee that raised them and they are swimming in his house and i have personnally seen them and the tank they are in looks like the walls of the tank are crawling there are so many bugs. now to the seahorse thing... he has talked with the people and it is true. he said that the reason that no one has said anything on the market about these is because its put out there by marc weiss which is hurting the sales but the stuff really does what ive said (and hes said) but its just going to take some time to make believers out of ppl. now for all of you that dont have an octopus in your reef tank he has brought up a very good point. yall say that all this stuff will do is settle on the bottom and become detritus. well if you have a copopod population already then they will eat this stuff causing them to reproduce faster. my friend has proven this with the empty tank by not only hatching the eggs but feeding them with reefbugs causing them to reproduce alot faster. now any of yall that are still interested i will continue to post about this to let yall know how it works. i am also going to set up a small tank to do a similar experiment to what my friend did with the bare tank and i will take pictures of the progress and post them. so... two things can come out of this... one, they can work and they can be a big help to all of us who are trying to raise baby octopus, or two they cant and all ive done is waste a little time and money. either way its worth a try so instead of everyone saying thier opinions on wether the stuff works or not can i get ideas from everyone on how to make this stuff work the best for us. i really do think that this stuff will help out the cb octopus industry alot if it works so lets just hope that it does.

oh yeah, im going to talk to Richard to see if he would mind the store being flooded with phone calls about this stuff if any of yall would be interested in calling him about it. he can tell you exactly about the wolf eels and about his friend that invented the stuff and maybe even work out sending some of the stuff to you. so if i can get a show of hands of ppl who would be interested in this and calling him ill ask.

I would definitely be interested in a sample. I would like to look at it under my microscope to identify the animals.

if you just want a sample of the stuff i can probably mail you some if i can get a hold of some stamps etc. only thing is i dont know how the stuff will react to being in the heat of warehouse and trucks of the us mail system... but if you want we can try anyway

This sounds like a good plan, Joefish - we're all hoping that this turns out to be a useful product.

Nancy