I have decided against an octopus for a few reasons...

1) They are very short lived.
2) They are fairly hard to identify.
3) Few CB species available.
4) Large tank requirements.

I have decided FOR a few cuttlefish for a few reasons...

1) They seem more active than most octopods.
2) There are only 2 species regularly available in aquariums.
3) The species I am getting (sepia bandensis of course) get only 4 inches.
4) They will live after breeding.

Now...I have a question...

How many do you think I could keep in a 40 gallon tank? This is a 40 gallon long. It is very long, and very tall, but not very wide. I plan on getting a good amount of tonga branch live rock for them to play in, like a jungle gym, along with various macros, mostly reds. I might want to try some nice zoanthids, and some mushrooms, if I can get a decent light on the tank. I was thinking around 4 or so cuttles, but i'm not sure how many would be recommended, and I am sorry if 4 sounds completely ridiculous. Thanks for your help!

Brock Fluharty

Brock, how much tank space does each cuttle need and how big do they get? We have a 60 gallon long freshwater tank and that's one of the considerations we had to take into account when getting fish for it. Basically there is a formula (not sure what it is for salt tanks) that each fish gets x amount of space. Something to consider when making your decision.

By the way, when you get the cuttles, we want pictures pictures pictures!!! :grin:

Yeah, i've read that formula, but I forget what it is...does anyone know how many sepia bandensis you can have in a 40 gallon?

Gee, I don't know. Maybe there's a good article somewhere out there on keeping Sepia bandensis...

Ok, I looked it up in my saltwater aquarium book -- they are recommending the 1 inch of fish to 4 gallons of water for the first six months. Gradually increase fish density to 1 inch per 2 gallons. "For example a 40 gallon aquarium should contain no more than 10 inches of fish for the first six months... After six months additional fish may be added gradually to increase the total number of inches to 20."

So I guess it depends on how big the you choose cuttles will likely get.

Well, sepia bandensis get up to 4 inches, so 2 for the first 6 months, and 4 for the later 6 months? I want to get eggs from someone, since they ship better than ones that are already hatched. They would also (I assume) be cheaper, although I know that the babies are hard to feed, I am in good with all of my LFS's, so I can get fiddler crabs, ghost shrimp, guppies, you name it. I am going to use LOA liighting fixtures, supplemented with actinics to make them less ugly, for the corals, and macro/stargrass. Anybody know of anyone who currently has too many eggs to handle or anyone who breeds in general?

Also, is that rule the same for invertebrates such as cuttles?

Seeing as cuttlefish have higher metabolism and generally secrete more ammonia than a fish, have a more bulbous shape and as such more volume of flesh per unit length than a fish, and often swim faster than fish in a direction in which they can't see, those rules probably aren't very applicable :)

Dan

Ok. I will just stick with two if everyone thinks that would be a good amount. I want eggs because I want to figure out which are males and females, and keep one of each for myself (if I can successfully raise them of course) and sell the rest off.

I'm sorry if I'm being a little hard on you--I still have quite a few hours work to do on my proposal tonight and am feeling a bit sarcastic.

If you haven't already, read Righty's article about Sepia bandensis. Hit the "Articles" button at the top of the screen then "Ceph Care" and scroll down to the bottom. He talks about a lot of the things you're wondering about.

Dan

Dan is exactly right. The article is excellent. Definitely a 1st read for anyone setting up a tank or even considering cuttles of any species.

One major point...cephs metabolize as if 3-4x their weight in fish, so 3-4 fish would equal 1 cuttle. That is why everyone rants about skimmers all the time, and to filter as 3-4x the tank volume.

Yes, I already read that article. It was very informative, but I just wasn't sure how many per 20 gallons or whatever.

When considering lighting don't go with something too bright. When I've seen them out during the day they've always been deeper than about 20m. Even in clear waters light is a little dim down there.

In the article, he recommends LOA lights, so I guess they are ok.

what are the deminsions of the tank, what is the filtration ect.

I will have to measure the tank. The filtration currently consists of a penguin filter. It's big, but I don't know what model. I am going to get a Seaclone 100 skimmer, but I don't have it yet. The tank is around 36 inches long, 16 inches high, and 12 inches wide or something like that.

I would recommend 2. For the first 4-5 months you will think you can keep more in there, but near reproductive maturity, the bandensis become very territorial and competitive. Aggression becomes much more frequent. I would try to keep them at even numbers. In an ideal situation, you want couples. However, you wont have a guess at thier sex until at least 4-5 months.

A single mated pair would do great in a 40.

If you feel you want more then this, I would suggest 2 mated pairs over having 3 cuttles where one is single. The third will get picked on a lot. 2 mated pairs will mostly stick with themselves.

Ive learned a great deal from raising bandensis from eggs to thier current age of 9 months. One thing that I suggest is to get as strong/big a skimmer as you can afford. The skimmer is the heart of my filtration. Any slight waver in its ability to function properly, you will observe die offs. Cuttles are very sensitive to changes and intolerant to the slightest of bad water quality. Much more then any octo Ive ever kept.

For lighting, I would use 2 55 watt power compacts and have each on a timer with both being on at the same time for only 4 hours a day. That is, one can be on for 8-10 hours a day while the other only is on for 4. Too much light will make them less active. I had a blind cuttle, but I dont associate it with lighting.

In terms of corals, I would sugest zoos, mushrooms, ricordias, star polyps..etc. It has been suggested to not keep stining lps type corals with cephs. However, I have to admit I do have a hammer in my cuttle tank, but Ive never seen any signs of it stinging or harming a cuttle. Ive seen the bandesis sit on the coral and show no signs of distress..

Good luck and if you have any questions just ask!
You can see my experiences and tank set up on my webpage in my sig.

Thanks! Yeah, I think I will stick with 2, and if they are both male, or both female, I will sell one and get another or trade or something. Does anyone know where I can get some eggs?

funny after keeping A bimac and an S. officnalis when my cuttle dies ill get another octo
they are more acitve and interactive than cuttles.
My Cuttle never tried to grab me and only rarely eats out of my hand. My Bimac Megas was always in my hand looking for food and being a clown. always ate out of my hand and was always looking around and playing with the castle and toys i gave him.
eh
I think octos are more interesting to keep even if the cuttles are more exotic and colorful

To make things even more difficult...

There is not much information regarding mixing bandensis that were reared apart.

That is, they may fight and kill each other or they may not. Bandensis can be kept in groups, but this has only been proven for groups that grew up together since young. I know mixing adults that are wild caught can result in fighting and death. So if it turns out your 2 are the same sex, it is uncertain if just trading one out will be successful. However, we may find that captive raised individuals reared apart can get along.

If anyone has had experience with this, I would like to know as well.

My dillemna at the moment involves three 5 month old bandensis that I have. I wonder what would happen if I put them in the main tank with my 9 month olds. I may put them in a clear divider and see how the 9 month olds react.

If you can keep a larger number until they are old enough to pair off, you can then trade/sell the rest off to responsible Tonmo members. You should be able to keep 6 or so in a 40 until they get to 4-5 months, which is about the time youll be able to sex them anyways..Also, expect to lose a couple along the journey. Regardless of how careful or well thought out your system is, Ive learned that sh*t happens. Bandensis rearing is still in its infancy, so we are still learnign as we go..Unfortuantely, these lessons have a price..

Also make sure you thoroughly think out your feeding situation for feeding an army of cuttles gets $$$$ real fast!

Just noticed the foods you mentioned available to you.

Keep in mind that the food required for newborns will be pods or maybe mysis shrimp. Ive never used mysis shrimp, but have heard others with success. Ive had some 3-5 day olds even take small 1/4 inch marine shrimps, but not all seem to. Crabs will not be an option until at least 2-3 months. I believe this is due to how cuttles catch them. With all live foods other then crabs, cuttles will use thier feeding tentacles to pull them in. With crabs, they shoot in and grab the crab with all thier tentacles. Usually from the backside of the crab. The cuttle needs to be strong enough to hold the crab from behind to avoid the pinchers. Baby cuttles show no interest in crabs until they are larger.

Damn Paradox that is an AWESOME site
love the training videos
props on that piece of art

Ok. I figured I would lose several, if not all on my first try, but it's not going to happen unless I get some eggs. Yes, I have a source of mysis shrimp available for the babes. Nobody knows anyone who has eggs that they are selling, or do not want to hatch and raise? Nearly every cuttle tank I have seen has red gracilaria algae, so I got some today, but I am keeping it in different tanks until the 40 gallon is cycled. I would really rather prefer to buy eggs over adults, since they ship easier, and I will have them for longer, as long as I can raise them. I may go for the Seaclone 150 instead of the 100. The 150 is recommended for 150 gallon tanks I think. Is that overkill, or good enough? I also plan an HOB refugium for the main tank, and one for the baby tank, both of which I will seed with mysis, pods, and possibly a few crabs. I plan on making my refugium out of acrylic, and I want to make them about 2 gallons or so. I had a very good, and cheap source for fiddlers, and other feeders, but they went out of business this week...so I will be ordering online, and possibly some fiddlers and such from my LFS. My Wal*Mart sells ghost shrimp for $0.18 each. If I can get eggs, I will try my best to hatch and raise them all, but I will wait until I can sex them until I sell the remaining ones. I plan on putting several tank dividers with holes drilled in them to divide the tank into enough compartments to house all of them separately, unless there are too many babies, in which case I may have to pair them up in compartments. So, does anyone know anyone that is breeding sepia bandensis, or has any eggs?

Thanks to all who have helped me this far!!!
Brock F.

Thank you :razz:

Probably not as proffessional as Righty's site, but this one suites me more =)

So far, Im not aware of successful breeding of Bandensis in the US. Righty's eggs were duds. My eggs were duds and my 9 month year old females have died. One I believe died from eating guppies, and the other was mostly blind from a birth defect that eventually just died. Having only males left for this generation leaves me out of the breeding picture until my next batch reaches maturity. However, I feel pretty accomplished having sustained 9 months so far!

A store in Florida was selling eggs, I cannot recall the name. Do some searching in the forums here for I recall it being mentioned. My experience from this batch was very different then my previous clutches of eggs. Definetly harder to get eating and a lot of cannabolism..

Was it Tampa Bay Saltwater? I just remembered they sometimes have them I think...

Aquatropics in gainsvill florida, and i would not go with a seaclone skimmer, very unreliable, i would go with a coralife superskimmer they are my personal favorite, if not a cpr bakpak would also be a good alternative as well as an aqua c remora.

Ok. I contacted Aquatropics, and i'm waiting for them to call me back with a shipping estimate. Too bad i'll be at soccer practice...I plan on getting them after the school year ends (I am 14), so I can devote all of my attention to them. Thanks again everyone!

Brock F.

i need cuttle is right, the Seaclones have a bad reputation. I've heard a lot of good press about the Superskimmer: It isn't by any means the best skimmer, but it way outperforms anything in its price range.

Dan

Is it HOB?

There are different models of it, one may be a HOB. However, after the meagher three years I've been keeping saltwater aquariums I don't think I'd recommend HOB equipment to anyone. Right now I'm even renovating my smaller tank: taking the HOB stuff off and hooking it to a combination wet/dry + sump + refugium.

Dan

Well, I can't really plumb or drill anything, so I think that HOB is my only option. Why don't you like HOB stuff? Because of the look, or because it works better in a sump or something?

Take a protein skimmer--There are certain configurations and geometries that are inherently efficient. If you want to take that design and sell it as a HOB component, you need to start compromising the design to get it to fit...maybe make the reaction chamber smaller or have a less efficient way of controlling the water level. Powerfilters are worse, because they're not even that efficient to begin with: the biggest biowheel isn't gonna do nothing compared to a modest amount of bioballs in a wet/dry. These are the reasons that sumps have become so pervasive.

If you don't think you're capable of setting up a sump, then HOB might be the way to go: planning your sump takes a lot of smarts and experience (that is, the first sump you setup will probably have serious problems that you'll need to fix). On the other hand, these are difficult animals to keep--much less breed--and the people that I've noticed who have the best luck are also the people that have the experience and the knowledge with the equipment (take a look at Righty's cuttle love-condos with the doors and windows!).

Dan

Yeah, I know. I love his idea of doors, and I would like to try to recreate that, if he doesn't mind, that is. It's not really that I don't know a lot about the equipment, I just don't feel comfortable with me building anything that will hold water...I have heard too many stories about sumps that flood, ect. I do have plenty of room under the tank though, but wouldn't I need to drill the tank? It is already filled up with saltwater. I guess I could give a sump a shot, and practice it on a 10 gallon or whatever, but I may need some serious guidance, if you wouldn't mind DHyslop. Thank you so much for walking me through everything. The tank stand has doors on it, which could easily house another tank under the 40 gallon, but the idea of drilling a tank makes me shudder...would it be absolutely necessary to drill, or could I have some airling tubing running over the top of the tank into the sump, and one leading back into it? So confusing...I'll google it!

Thanks again!
Brock Fluharty

I'm afraid I'm not in a good position to walk anyone through anything right now with my thesis proposal due. I will say an alternative to drilling would be a siphon-overflow (A good siphon overflow, stay away from the SOS or the CPR).

There have been entire volumes of work written by hobbyists about how to set up sumps. Use Google, and also Reefcentral. Remember you can search RC by specifying the site name in Google.

Patience is the most important ingredient. I sat on an empty tank for nearly 6 months reading about sumps on the internet before I even tried my first one. And it was so lousy I only had it set up for about three months. After that I read for another 6 months before trying again.

A good piece of advice is not to build anything if you don't yet understand exactly how it works. A well designed overflow system, for example, usually has a few fail-safes built in. If you build one without understanding them, you're bound for a flood. Again, the moral of the story is have the patience to research everything completely.

Dan

Don't know if anyone has seen this, but the more information you have at your disposal, the better.

Felix.

http://www.melevsreef.com/what_sump.html

Melev has some great stuff, but there are some things he does that I just don't trust (ie, running 120V AC through a single float valve for his auto-topoff - yikes!). Its an incredibly informative site he's built, though!

Dan

Ok, DHyslop. I think I have a better understanding of how it works now, and my stepdad worked in plumbing for 10 years, so I think we can do this at the right time, like in 3 months...lol. Yes, I just read that article Felix, and it was very informative. I am going to have to go with the siphon overflow, because I don't want to break down the tank and drill it. I will probably use a 20 gallon sump, with an added refugium. Does a siphon overflow still skim the surface? It doesn't sound like it does, and that was a real positive to me...:(

I only looked at the sump, actually just did a search. Wanted to gather information on plumbing 2 sumps to one tank. It works great, we put the chaeto in one, and some ugly base rock in the other, with a 24 hour photo cycle. Seems to be working out great, thanks a million, Dan!

Ok, well I just did that calculator on RC on how many gallons the sump will require in case of a power outage. It says 5.4 gallons, but I am going to go with either a 20 gallon sterilite tub, or a 10 gallon tub. I already have both, but the 10 gallon one is more than 10 gallons. I think I could fit at least 20 in there, ut they don't measure it at the top. It has lots of room. Now, a sump sounds extremely exciting, and easier. Also, I can use the refugium as a place to keep some baby cuttles, or eggs. Aquatropics does have sepia bandensis eggs right now. They are $5.00 per egg, and you can pick between UPS or FedEx shipping. One is only like $26.00. I am going to get about 5 from them once my tank has matured greatly. If this batch does not survive, I will wait another 6 months or so before anything is added, to mature it beyond belief, lol.

Brock

Brock--

One thing you might consider is setting up some HOB equipment while you study up on sumps; if you're in a hurry and money isn't as important. Siphon overflows still do skim--check out products on the internet: a picture is worth a thousand words. Take reefcentral seriously, too. I promise any question you can conceive of has already been asked and answered there.

Felix--

Good to hear the Chaeto's working out. Did they slap a biohazard sticker on yours?

Dan

Dan is right-I have remade my sump system 3 times so far-and I have done this before. I have had it sitting with no water for 2 months now, planning the flow rates, fail safes, and baffles to be sure everything will work how I want it.

If you have room for 2 sumps and can figure your system out -I would recommend it. One can be excess overflow and for mixing water changes. I am using this in my system, but I actually have 3 sumps combined with bulkheads and ball valves.

I think I have it down now, but will do the final build and cement the PVC this weekend; so everyone wish me luck.

Good luck Illithid. I think we must admit that we're the kind for whom the planning and the building is half the fun!

Dan

I don't think I have enough room for 2 sumps. I already have some HOB equipment set up on the tank. I have a heater, filter, and I will go ahead and get the skimmer probably. Do you think I should set up the sump before or after getting the eggs? I think after, but i'm not sure how much stress that would put them under...

You can do a transition without upsetting the system too much. If you turned on flow through the wet/dry and took off the powerfilter the same day you'd have trouble, but if you ran them together for a month or so to let the bacteria colonize it would be just fine.

Dan

So maybe get the eggs, and then set up the sump? Sounds better to me...

Why do you want to get the eggs first and then the sump? I thought the idea was to have the most stable, mature system you could construct before putting a delicate creature into it. If you add a sump, won't you be changing the biological filter? Don't you think it would be better to have your tank totally set up and then add the eggs. You are going to have your hands full just trying to feed and keep the babies alive without having to mess with leaking sumps, pumps that aren't working and skimmers that aren't skimming. Just my :twocents:

That is true, but I don't plan on getting them until summer, and I won't have anything else to do. I don't have an actual job, but I do have a steady flow of cash. I agree though, the more stable, the better. I will set it all up, and then wait a month or so, and then get the eggs. I want to have the eggs right when summer starts, so I can get at least 2.5 months in with them. I don't want to get them halfway through the summer, and then only have 1 month left you know? Thanks, I will get the eggs after I set up the sump.

Brock F.

Felix--

Good to hear the Chaeto's working out. Did they slap a biohazard sticker on yours?

Dan

Thanks, once again!
Surprisingly, they didn't. I don't think they were worried too much. You must have a lot of dealings with the PO.

The Chaeto seems to be breaking down. Not sure what's going on with it, but I'll figure it out, and have an aquatic jungle.

Brock, do you have drawings that you could share with us? Maybe we can maximize your setup.

Breaking down??? That doesn't sound right, might you elaborate?

Dan

Do you mean drawings of the sump I am planning? Not really, i'm still trying to grasp the whole concept...so confusing...what are baffles for? Getting rid of micro bubbles, making sure fish don't get into the intake area of the sump, what? Also, does the refugium just go right into the sump, or is this an extra container, plumbed into the whole mess?

hehe, it can be daunting. People primarily put the baffles in to get rid of the microbubbles. If your water has to flow down at some point it helps to separate out some of the bubbles. The 'fuge is usually just one of the chambers in the sump, don't let that confuse you.

Dan

Breaking down??? That doesn't sound right, might you elaborate?

Dan
I think it has some thing to do with being nipped at. It looks as though the plant is bleeding a tan substance. I moved it to the fry bucket to see if it due to being nipped at. If you lift it from it's resting place, it 'rains' a tan particle cloud. Not very fine, but dense. It doesn't appear to affect water quality. I.e., amonia, or nitrites, nitrates. I haven't checked for phos, but I doubt any are present, I used all RO/DI water. Copper, obviously measures 0, but I don't trust any copper kit completely. Calcium is up around 400, and ph is a stable 8.2. Let me knowwhat you think.

Felix.

That has happened to me, too. I believe the chaeto is just acting like a filter pad, trapping normal tank detritus that would otherwise go out the skimmer/filter sock.

Dan

Yup, thats detritus build up. I vaccuum the fuge out once a month..

Sweet! Thanks guys! Will change my maintaince schedule.

So, basically, all I need is a tank, with some baffles siliconed into place? With a syphon on on end, and a powerhead with a tube, to pump the water back into the tank? Or is it more than that, and i'm missing something? Or do I need to make a separate overflow box for the inside of the sump, to make sure the syphon doesn't blow around any substrate in the refugium chamber?

Brock Fluharty

The refugium is usually just one side of the baffles, so you don't have to worry about stuff blowing around.

Keep in mind a siphon overflow is much more than just a siphon: it has an internal and an external box. The external box usually has a second chamber or a standpipe--this arrangement means that flow can stop without the siphon breaking. That way if you turn off the pump or there's a power failure your main tank doesn't drain onto the floor. It also means that the rate the siphon overflow is carring water to the sump will automatically match itself the flow the pump is providing, which is pretty nifty.

Here are a couple good brands of siphon overflow:

http://store.hurricanefilters.com/index.html
http://www.lifereef.com/frame.html

Stay away from the CPR brand or Marineland SOS overflows.

Also, the pump you'll use will probably have a little bit more oomph than a standard powerhead. A good powerhead might have a few hundred gph of flow in the tank, but as soon as it has to pump water uphill it loses performance pretty quick. Mag-drive brand pumps are the work-horse: inexpensive but reliable, sometimes a little noisy. Eheim makes the best pumps, but they cost about twice as much.

Dan

Be sure to check the performance curve for the pump that you are looking at. They will show the gph vs. the head (feet it will have to pump up).

Find your target gph rate which is the system gallons x 5-10 (everyone will tell you a different number), but cephs do best with lots of flow.

Then measure the distance from where your pump will be to the top of your water line- this is the head.

Next decide whether you want submersible or external. Submersible is much easier, but will add more heat to the tank. If you are doing tropical species-this isn't a problem because lights aren't a issue with cephs. But O.Vulgaris, S. Officianalis, etc. will have shortened life spans with higher temps- so check out the species you want.

Check out Reef Central for ideas on pumps. Everyone has a different favorite too-and they are all correct. It is just what they had the best luck using. Watch for issues like- loud, hot, unreliable, have rusty screws :wink: , etc. The most expensive parts of my system were the pump, skimmer, and live rock.

Also, there's more to hydraulic head than just measuring the vertical distance of the pipe: Every curve or elbow in the plumbing and the friction against the side of the pipe contributes, too. There's a calculator on ReefCentral you can use.

Dan

What skimmer should I get? I know that they are messy eaters, and produce a TON of waste, but what brand, and model? I'm looking for good, but cheap (if that's even possible in this hobby...).

Thanks,
Brock F.

There's a thread at the top of Tank Tank entitled "Which protein skimmer do you have....." Have a look at it - many brands are listed with comments.

Nancy

depends on how much you want to spend, asm arnt bad though

Well, I don't want to spend over $100 if possible. I would prefer under $80, but that may not be feasable...I was thinking a CPR Bakpak. Not sure how much they are, but I think over $100...I need a job....