I May be able to get flamboyant cuttles and or eggs in the new future, if anyone is interested.

There'd probably be a big market for flams.

I'm sure I would be able to take 1 or 2, and give them a good home.

i am beyond interested ill buy 4-5 if you have that many.

What's the deal with flamboyants? Are they cool looking? Obviously they are rare, but why is there such a demand?

i dont know how many i can get or how much they will be, i work at an lfs and my livestock manager said that they are showing up on his supplier list so i will have an answer for you on tuesday

Yep, its springtime again ! Remember, these are going to be adults, so have your tanks ready to go, and hopefully you can get some eggs before they die off...if you can establish a community, there would be quite a few members who would be interested in juveniles, I'm sure.

greg

What follows is very uncharacteristic of me and those of you you have seen my posts over the past few years will realize that while I have argued against the collection and sale of mimics, I've tried to keep a fairly even keel with regards to the industry. However, this thread pushed a button tonight that ignited some feelings that have been building in the back of my mind for some time. After writing this and rereading it, my first impulse was to hit delete. However, the more I think about it, the more concerned I am about the trend in the hobby to seek the rare and unusual, so I decided to go ahead and post my response. If flamboyants were sea horses and could be cultured with a sustainable market, I would not say a word, but they aren't, so here are my uncensored thoughts on this thread.

________________________________________ ________

Yes, they are cool with great postures and color change. I have certainly enjoyed stalking and photographing them in their native habitats. However, they are also rare and getting rarer. To my knowledge Metasepia pfefferi has not been cultured and M. tullbergi has only been reared with difficulty. Given that 99% of the animals shipped will not make it to adulthood, is it really worth the cost to this species to promote their collection and sale?

In fact, I think it is perhaps a good time for elements of the cephalopod aquarists community to take a look at a disturbing trend. There seems to be increasing pressure to acquire ever more exotic and rare species. With mimics and wonderpus going for up to $500 and flamboyants for over $100, a market is being created that local collectors and exporters cannot ignore. I strongly doubt that the populations of these animals can withstand this level of harvesting for very long. Perhaps it is time to ask why you need to have an exotic cephalopod in your tank for a few weeks when there is essentially no chance of rearing it and when dozens died so that one could make it to your retailer.

Now that I have started getting this off of my chest, let me go one step further. Much of the initial support for Tonmo came from people who were fascinated by cephalopods and wanted an opportunity to interact with them. The site did a great service introducing these animals to people and educating them on how to maintain them. Do at least in part to sources of information such as Tonmo, we even go to the point where commercial ventures were launched trying to provide captive reared animals for enthusiasts. Well, we have all seen how successful that was. Unfortunately, when it was easy and less cool to have your own bimac, at least part of the market quickly dried up and moved on to more exotic species, so we are back to the days of "Hey, Bud, want to buy a flamboyant? They are really rare and hard to get."

Roy

the point of getting them is to breed them and relive the stress on the natural population. you should try to sell them to people with intent to breed them and the people who just want one can get the next generation. they could save a lot of money by getting a tank bred one. i for one would love to breed them and see if you can get some to righty.

Since the very beginning of the cephalopod husbandry area of this site, it has been a high priority to emphasise the importance of captive breeding and we have always encouraged people to have a go if possible and if not, then to at least buy captive bred stock.

This has however, mostly been in reference to Octopus bimaculoides, a non-threatened octopus from the USA.

I have lost count of how many posts I have submitted trying to dissuade people from buying a cephalopod on impulse and from others buying species such as Mimic, Wunderpus, Blue rings and of course, Metasepia flamboyant cuttlefish.

Nothing has changed.

I currently work in conservation and I have also worked in the exotic animal trade for many years. It gives me a fairly unique view, and as i have said before; we should not encourage the collection of animals like this.

I am 100% with Roy on this one.

Metasepia are not the way forward as a captive cephalopod breeding programme. There is a LOT more ground work that has to be done before anyone could justify buying in several specimens for a breeding project.

The presence of a market does not justify the animal as candidates for a breeding project.

I don't think we have gotten to the bottom of what happened with OctoPets but they are not the only example of cephalopod breeding businesses that have gone bust pretty quick. CephSource anyone?

Yes, it would be nice to get some and have them breed so that CB specimens could be sold but these are certainly not an easy subject and remember, even Sepia bandensis has only been taken past F1 generation a couple of times. It doesnt take much to lose an entire batch!

In closing, this is a specialist group of marine invertebrate and as a special interest group we should not be part of the problem that these cephalopods face from the ornamental aquatic hobby.

Colin

Well, I'm certainly glad you didn't delete your post, Roy ! My answer was meant to be sarcastic, as it's been made quite plain about how I feel regarding captive wild caught animals.
I am happy as get-out that I am no longer involved in the wild caught animal trade, all the death is depressing.
Someday, when we have learned the basics of rearing Sepia, it will be possible to maintain and rear Flamboyants...until then, buying one only supports wiping them out in the wild...where they actually belong.
Hats off to those who are working with Sepia at the moment, I know Sir Righty has certainly influenced me on the care of cuttles, and I've become very, very enthused about trying to rear them here.
Colin, as always, you are spot on.

greg

I am interested in Flamboyants too, like everyone on this list for one reason or another. My heart stopped when I read the initial post. I immediately thought of getting 4-6 for my 240 and starting a breeding project that would be in the interest of everyone (conservation, exotic, etc.) Unfortunately my dreams were quickly squashed because my tank isn't ready or mature, and wouldn't be ready in time-no matter what.

Then I thought, who is doing the "research" of flamboyants to get this captive breeding information?

On one side you have losses. The NRCC isn't breeding them, they tried and stopped. Righty, one of the best individual cuttle breeders I have heard of, tried and lost his. This can't be ignored.

On the other side -in the reptile industry the individual breeders ARE the forefront. They are the ones who find the habitats and care regimes. They study the natural history and duplicate the environments to get captive breeding. Who does this in Cephs? Are there any articles like Righty's about bandensis written by anyone in the scientific community? The honorable James Wood is the only one that comes to mind, whose work I read every chance I get, but he isn't working with flamboyants.

In a perfect world-rare animals wouldn't be collected until they weren't rare, novices wouldn't get animals they would undoubtedly kill, and you could get captive bred everything. I do not believe that we are the problem in driving rare flamboyants to be rarer. I see us as the only people as having a chance at unlocking the secrets of captive breeding. The flamboyants that end up at the LFS will die in the hands of rich novices trying to add them to their reef tanks.

If you successfully reared flamboyants-would you sell them to the local fish store? or sell them to pre approved homes. I might even make a test to qualify the new owners! The few people on this list can't stop the collection in the wild in Indonesia, but we are the best hope of saving what is collected next year.

I remember this is what it was like 15 years ago with a bimac. No source of knowledge was available, and now it is. How many octos has this list saved? Check out the lurker population.

How many years have we tried to stop blue ring sales? And they can kill you!

My opinion is to get people like Colin, Righty, Greg, etc. as many flamboyants as they can hold, rather than shooting flamboyant husbandry in the foot by limiting them by doing the "right" thing.

Colin, Greg,
I know you are the ones saying not to get them. I just respect your knowledge and experience and would like to see it go towards saving something we all appreciate-flamboyants. I hope not to offend you in the previous post.

The question is whether anyone buying them would really have the opportunity. As far as I'm aware, Righty has more experience with cuttle breeding than anyone in the US outside the NRCC, and even he is empty handed right now. Would it not make sense to become experts at every other non-threatened cuttle before charging blindly into a project with flamboyants that is bound to fail?

Dan

If we can't stop or have any effect on the importation, I suppose it would have to do with how endangered you feel they are and how much help they need.

(Disclaimer- The following is a example and not meant to be acted upon)
What if everyone that reads this thread -that has ever had any success with cuttles- buys 5 flamboyants for $100 each. I don't think that it would cause any more indoneisian natives to get one extra cuttle than they wouldn't already catch if they had the opportunity for the world-wide market. (i.e. We preach and preach about blue rings -and still they come.)

But say that Righty (he is the best example that I can think of) buys 5 and trys to breed them. Let's say he loses all 5 for 2 years running. and on the 3rd year looses them again but gets a already pregnant female and has captive hatched eggs. 15 dead cuttles, but 15 hatchlings.

Now these cuttles I feel are alot like the panther chameleons I had bred. Madagascar is facing the highest deforestation of any rainforest. The panthers are difficult, rare jewels that stress easily and are facing endangerment in their native habitat-alot like flamboyants. Once these animals were captive hatched the resulting animals were easily bred because they weren't stressed, damaged while wild caught, and full of parasites. Now panther chameleons are available from many breeders across the southeast U.S. because they are expensive and beautiful. Therefore lucrative to produce.

Flamboyant and octo breeding is different because you can only get so much for a dwarf octo, or you competition will just wild catch one-so you have a $ cap. People pay $600 for a captive hatched adult panther and $150-$300 for hatchlings because they will succeed with captives, rather than wild caught that will fail.

I will not be buying any this year because I don't have any success with cuttles yet. My tank is not properly matured and setup for cuttles. I am not yet worthy of a flamboyant.

I do respect anyone's opinion not to get a flamboyant. I feel they should have the experience to help the species, rather than satisfying their craving for a exotic pet.

Can I just add that it's precisely this type of thoughtful deliberation that warmed me to this forum in the first place: I tip my hat to the lot of you...

Now panther chameleons are available from many breeders across the southeast U.S. because they are expensive and beautiful.

Just curious, has there been any initiative among hobbyists (or others) to captive breed these guys for release back into the wild, or to try to release at least some of them to replace those originally collected?

Just curious, has there been any initiative among hobbyists (or others) to captive breed these guys for release back into the wild, or to try to release at least some of them to replace those originally collected?

Not to my knowledge because the problem is the lack of habitat itself. The way Madagascar is getting raped it will be uninhabitable for chameleons quickly. Logging and urban sprawl is decimating the areas that you can get to for releasing the animals. People are trying to buy up parcels of land, but parcels turn into little islands of rain forest. Animals need wider tracks to thrive, so it is a uphill battle.

I was on the board of directors of the Central Florida Herpetological Society and we bought land and paid for research on endangered reptiles. We bought radio collars for tracking animals to get ranges needed, etc. We even paid for bullets to shoot habitat-rampaging goats on Galapagos (which was government sanctioned and sponsered.)

I don't think anyone has accomplished any major (if any) breeding of the flamboyants. I just did a google search for a flamboyant image, and they are gorgeous, but not worth it IMO.

I don't think anyone has accomplished any major (if any) breeding of the flamboyants. I just did a google search for a flamboyant image, and they are gorgeous, but not worth it IMO.

Righty has an awesome movie of the flamboyant he had for a while, I think it's just called metasepia... search the movies here or on his web site (stickycricket or daisyhillcuttlefarm)

I just realized that I can also get flamboyant cuttles, but I won't. I just saw them on my wholesalers list. I guess that if Righty wanted a few, I would get them for him, but not unless they are a very reputable breeder. Nothing less, and i'm sure he already has his "guy" for flammys. They are nice looking though.

An Update:
I have been informed that the supplier currently has four individuals, and 3 festons of eggs. After reading what colin and others wrote i have decided to resist the temptation of getting the adults. I will however do my best to get the eggs, as they would certainly not survive if left on their own. On the other hand, i will not go passing out flam eggs like the easter bunny. If one of the more seasoned members of the forum, or someone who i feel is capable of keeping these amazing animals wants some of the eggs, then i would have no proublem sending them some. To those who frown upon my actions, i respect your opinion and would agree with you in most instances. However i feel that a captive rasied Flamboyant future is not impossible.

On the other hand, i will not go passing out flam eggs like the easter bunny.

I like that visual :o)

Dan

I definately think egg collection is the best way. Obviously no-one wants the flams and mimics of the world to dissappear but your average hobbyist just doesnt know about their plight. They will see one at a not-so-reputable importer, and impulse buy. I dont blame them, they are fascinating animals, and if you havent heard otherwise you'd naturally assume that you could be happy with your purchace.

Which is why I think eggs are the answer. We cant stop(well some of you importers can make a small difference :grin: ) this collection from going on but if you can supply baby flams you might be able to make a bigger difference.
Eggs have a very small chance of making it to adulthood in the wild. So the effect of harvesting eggs probably has a very small effect compared to harvesting adults.
Added to that they travel well, are reasonably easy to raise, and you get heaps of flams for your troubles.

Does anyone know how many flams there are out there? I know its hard to tell but is there some definate answers on whether the population is declining?

I can also get something called a paper nautilus? I have only ever heard of chamered nautiluses. It kind of looks like a chambered nautilus, but it has wierd suction cups on it's mantle, and is sort of rounded on it's "shell".

Wow--I've never heard of aquarium distributors having paper nautilus. That's somewhat disturbing.

Dan

I am assuming they are rare? Now, I am not getting one, ever, but what are the requirements? The same as a chambered nautilus? The wholesaler is in the Phillipines, not sure if that says anything...

One of our biologists should jump in here and tell us more, because I really don't know much about their scarcity. My understanding is they are more like shelled octopus rather than a true Nautilus. Do a google search and you'll see some good pictures.

Dan

They are indeed. The Philliipine government doesn't have the best rep in the world when it comes to protecting species in and around their boundaries.

I've seen those on the lists too...always makes me sad.

One of our biologists should jump in here and tell us more, because I really don't know much about their scarcity. My understanding is they are more like shelled octopus rather than a true Nautilus. Do a google search and you'll see some good pictures.

Dan

This is another name for an Argonaut. I believe that they are believed to be a variation on octopus, rather than a close relative of real nautilus; the shell is formed in a different way, from organs on one of the arm pairs, unlike a nautilus, and otherwise the morphology is almost identical to an octopus (8 arms, no tentacles, suckers, etc.) I've never heard of one being kept in an aquarium or sold as a pet, though.

Hmm, not a good sign. Even though i am (to a much lesser degree than others) part of the proublem, this croses the line and builds a walmart.

I realy hope i never see a paper nautalis on one of our lists or any nautalists to that degree. I think the proublem with the ceph trade, and the whole marine trade in general; is the fact that nothing is done in moderation. It is all bindge improting and bindge colecting. Even with liverock, something we would all see as commonplace, there is so much over harvesting and pilliging of the reef scape that in 50 years ill bet the majority of the "reef" will be sitting in homes across the world.

How would i fix the proublem? Make a Minimum survival rate that all importers have to maintain during colection, importation, and a certain number of days/hours the ainimal is in the U.S.


(sry for the mini rant, i know im a hippocrit"

I like the answer that Florida found for live rock.

Check out www.tampabaysaltwater.com -they have a plot of land in the bay that they can put their own rock to create live rock.

Really pretty ingenius -I think.

You can't stop everyone wanting live rock, and the ocean organisms are free and needing a home. the only limiting factor is the rocks and land to put them on. So... get some underwater desert with no life and stock it with rock so... life will come. Doesn't tax the natural reef and the rocks that are harvested are the correct size and shape for live rock, just have to wait.

That is true conservation, not withholding live rock that would hurt everone's filtering for the livestock they get, but creating their own with replenishable resources.

Eggs are a good example of that too. As Feelers mentioned most eggs die in the wild, but they travel the best for importers. They also would be the least stressed when hatched and captive raised. Good survivability, longer life, and less stress on the livestock = better chance of breeding = less future stress on wild populations.

well said.

I wouldnt worry too much about "Paper Nautilus" - yes they are argonauts. (very different from Nautilus)
They are basicially open water octos but with shells that they "weave" with modified arms. Only the females are like this, the males are much smaller (centimeters).
http://www.nhm.ac.uk/hosted_sites/tcp/Argojuv.JPG


I believe they have an unusual population structure that is naturally "unstable" in that they have a "broke then bust" system.
In many places every few years thousands!!! wash up on beaches. They sometimes cruise around in big chains holding onto eash other like a congo-line.

As for their rarity - they are out in the open ocean, and I'd geuss if they can even find any it must be a good year for their reproduction ("go for broke phase"), so the removal of a few will likely have a tiny impact.
I'd be very interested in seeing how well they do if properly cared for, fascinating animals that no-one knows much about at all.
If you order them be warned they are supposed to be very difficult.

Heres a good however brief descripton.
http://www.nhm.ac.uk/hosted_sites/tcp/Argo.html

I'd love to see how someone went with them.
http://www.southernshores.auz.info/beachcombing/images/nautilus02L.jpg

Hey guys,

I am in Tonga and just had dive with squid! :smile:

I am torn about this - just as torn as when I get a call from a wholesaler telling me they have a flam or a mimic. What to do? Not buying it means it will prolly end up in someones tank that has no idea how to care for it. Buying it means that they think there is a market for the animal and it will continue to get collected.

I am honored that some of you think I might have a chance with these guys and am surely willing to give it a shot.

We don't know about the surrvival rates of flam eggs in the wild (at least not that I am aware of), in fact, I don't even think we have any idea of how many eggs there are at all. So, the fact that there are eggs doesn't less my worries about impact on natural populations.

Anyway, these are my initial, sun baked, squid infested thoughts on the subject written across the worst dial up in Tonga. :D Hopefully, I will see Neil Diamonds biggest fan tommorow in Auckland!

I most certainly will not buy any type of animal that i'm not 100% sure I can keep. I will not buy a paper nautilus, or a flammy, unless special ordered by someone such as Righty. Not pressuring you at all, Righty, I just wanted to be clear that I do not plan on getting them on a regular basis.

Has anyone kept an argonaut before? I would be very interested to see how keeping one went. As I said before they wash up in their thousands, so I wouldnt worry about their rarity (as I would the flams).

They often wash up in NSW (Austrailia), so maybe there are some in NZ waters.... hmmmm. If it were me I'd get one and see how it went.
Most references(on the the net) about keeping things like cuttlefish ect are out of date, and you might have a better shot at keeping them than was originally thought. I remember reading one on cuttles that said they were impossible to keep.

I most certainly will not buy any type of animal that i'm not 100% sure I can keep.
I fully understand your positon, but I think curiousity would get the best of me in this situation. :smile:

An Update:
i will not go passing out flam eggs like the easter bunny.

Not even chocolate ones?

I understand, but I assume that they get pretty big. Also, they probably need cold waters. If there are at least 5 people that really want someone to try, I will, or if someone else wants one, I could get one, like for you Feelers. Sounds like you really want one. Can someone give me a good estimate at what they would eat, how big they get, ect. I am asking for sugestions, since I know that not a lot of people (if any) have kept them. They don't look as good as in the pic above though.

Brock

Dont worry I'm waaaay out here in NZ, :cry: so I wouldn't be able to import one. As for temps, your looking southern australia temps -subtropical say 72F, as a geuss? 15- 25C

They eat jellyfish, salps, crustaceans ect. They dont get too big, 25cm max shell length according to Mark Norman. Apparantly they live after breeding too - so they might live many years.

And apparantly they are found around NZ! :grin: , although I'm geussing it would be quite hard to procure.

Originally posted by Toren
Not even chocolate ones?

Maybe chocolate covered squid?

If a few people think I should give it a shot, to see how it is, then I will.

Scroll down a bit down the page till you get to Paper Nautilus
http://www.mlssa.asn.au/journals/1997Journal.htm

Some good info. I really want one now!

Ceph World Guide has some info on Argonauts too. Says same thing, wash up by the thousands. They can even come out of thier shell, and when they do they look like a octo!

Although I cannot remember the source, I recall reading that no one has been able to keep a paper nautilus alive for more then a few weeks..

Interesting though is that their life span can be a few years..

They also have dietery habits that differ from normal cephs. Along with crustaceans, they also eat a lot of jellyfish by attaching themselves to them and sucking thier insides out :lol:

on page 196 at the bottom in the Ceph World Guide they talk about someone who got a stranded female and kept it in a aquarium for 3 weeks while watching the eggs develop.

They also said that they can jet around very fast. Probably not a good quality for home aquariums. Sounds like all the difficult stuff of squid and nautilus balled up together in a paper thin shell. :bugout:

:hmm: Taking longer then i thought.....

seems that another lfs is also trying to get them.

Well Roy I'm also glad that you didn't delete your post. The reality is that flamboyants are rare and the aquarium trade puts heavy pressure on them. The demand absolutely does trickle down putting pressure on locals to collect them. Spotters get a kick-back for reporting the location of rare muck prize animals such as flambos, frogfish, mimics, wunderpus, etc. Divemaster friends of mine will no longer divulge the location of these animals to certain other divemasters because they suddenly go missing as soon as the info gets out. I remember how upset many people (myself included) were when the picture of Metasepia eggs in a coconut shell showed up in the Cephs of the World guide-- collectors were given a treasure map directing them to the entire reproductive output of females - to be stashed discretely into one goody bag. In addition to Righty and some others, The Waikiki Aquarium also gave it a shot. No dice. Rightly is doing wonders with S. bandensis- let's learn what we can from his efforts. When they lead to self-sustaining stocks then it may be time for someone very well-experienced (like Righty, NRCC, etc) to try it with Metasepia. In the meantime, please leave them in the muck.
--Crissy

Hey guys,

My understanding is that the eggs aren't stateside, and have been told that they are being held in Oz. If they were stateside, I would jump all over it, but part of me feels that they may get collected for the order. Any advice?

Ask for a photo next to todays news? :grin:
To be honest I wouldnt worry about it, they are all taken from the sea regardless whether they were taken proir to your order or not, and you are probably the most suitable person to receive them anyway, without them your breeding efforts wont be able to amount to much!!!

but part of me feels that they may get collected for the order. Any advice?
Is that true? That the natives don't collect the flams without a order from a lfs? If that were true -it would be different. I have a hard time believing that they are. Communications cannot be that good. I believed that natives saw something rare and caught it to sell to buyers in Indonesia who sent lists to distributors in the states who faxed the lists to the LFS. Meaning that they hunted for things that would put the most money in their pocket and food on the table. Also meaning that if I didn't buy one-they would still come. That they came on the stateside lists before anyone stateside asks, and that "ordering" fish meant that the LFS went over their lists or at the most called the stateside distributor who checked over his lists from Indonesia (of animals that were already caught).

I have been to Indonesia, but not with cephs in mind (Hong Kong, Singapore, and Bangkok.)

Righty have you been there and know how the "Ordering" works?

I know how some of the ordering works. Most collectors collect what they are told to collect, and don't pick up things on their own initiative as it often isn't profitable to do so. Since flam eggs haven't been on lists before to the best of my knowledge, I have to believe they were asked for. Think about it this way - over the last two years there have been a dramatic increase in the amount of requests to collect cuttlefish eggs, and more eggs have been collected. Since cuttlefish eggs are 'hot', the collectors have been asked to collect any cuttlefish eggs. I am know that it has been more than just me (I?) making discreet inquiries about flamboyant eggs over the last year. So, I don't believe this is a one off, random collection.

I also know that they have been showing up on lists for other wholesalers, so my worry is that the initial eggs were sold and now more have been collected or will be collected to fill the current wants.

The marine ornamental trade has, in general, a supermarket attitude. Meaning, facilities at all levels like to have a plethora of each item available for those who might want it. So, if flam eggs are snapped up, it is probable that more will be collected instantly for the next order that might want them. I am not a fan of the supermarket approach, and would prefer to see more of a custom order approach. Sure it gets in the way of instant gratification, but it is less wasteful of animal life. So, the deeper worry is that these animals will continue to be collected just like the mimic octos. I have no idea if this will be the case, but it is my worry.

But I digress.

I believe that the stateside people believe that these eggs are being held in Oz right now, and I believe the stateside folks involved have no nefarious intent and want to get the eggs and adults to only people we here feel have a chance with them. If the reality is they are actually being held in Oz is another question, which unfortunately the only way to answer is to go there and look.

I think Crissy makes a great point in saying that we haven't been about to get bandensis going in captivity, so should we even try with flamboyants? On the other hand, there is an analogous situation with sps corals - people tried to keep them before they were perfect with lps corals, and after a time became wildly successful.

As I said earlier, I am still torn, and have till mid day to make up my mind.

Hello, thought Id chime in here because this situation involves me as well.

As you may know, I have been raising and attempting to breed Bandensis. Pretty much along side with Righty. We actually live 25 minutes apart! Our plan was to raise the bandensis from eggs and when/if we had fertile eggs, we would swap eggs to increase genetic variation. All while recording and learning as much as possible. Haveing two isolated systems (Righty's setup and Mine) works great as a way to compare and check each others progress. Unfortunatley, both of us have had some bad luck in which breeding for this generation of bandensis will not happen.

This opportunity came in perfect timing for Righty and I both have the the tank space rady and setup for a new generation of eggs. I still have adult bandensis, but I have a lot of room in my egg and juvenile sections.

I know there is a moral dilemna regarding this and a catch 22 invovling..if we should take care of and learn as much as we can from ones that have already entered the aquarium trade for they are most likely doomed in the hands of most hobbyists? Or..should we ignore this resource in hopes that it will discourage further collection..

Regardless of Righty and my decision to take some or not, an order is going to go through. If we decided to take some ourselves, we would be just adding to the order. So, even if we decide to not purchase some eggs, some will already be coming to the US from OZ regardless. I also feel that even if our decision is to not partake, I feel the eggs will be snatched up by someone else and our statement goes unoticed.

I am torn in this situation, but I am leaning towards the decision of attempting one festoon of eggs. However, the communities insight is much appreciated.

As the modified cliche goes you cant make an Flambéd omelette without taking a few eggs..............

I think the benefits far outway the negatives. If you learn how to breed them successfully the species wil be much better off.

I agree with Feelers. You gotta spend some money to make some money...well, you gotta take some flammies to make some flammies.